Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

[chicago51]

Couple things of note:

1 - This shouldn't be a shock. This has been going on for over a decade.

2 - This deserves a national debate and I'm glad it is getting attention. So far nothing I have heard has necessarily scared me. However we the people deserve to make the decision of how far government can go. So we need to have a national debate on this.

3 - This debate goes beyond government as private corporations like google's gmail read emails and use them for marketing. The privacy debate certainly starts with government and national security but it extends to the private sector.

4 - Had a debate with a friend that is typically liberal big government. I couldn't disagree more. Liberalism is about liberty, equal rights, equal protection, and equal opportunity which at times the reguire use of government to advance those things. The use of governmen in ways that restrict freedom is not liberalism.

 

[IrishinTN]

No feud here, just a discussion and a test......My three brain cells testing whiskeys patience.

Keep rubbing them together and you might make a fire!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Two salient points. There is no organization, (especially the military) that swears it's agents or members to absolute obedience. That is just bull shiit from the movies. There is a rich tradition of ethical writings on or about obeying a just order in the military, and how to disobey an unjust one. A perfect example of when the movie got it right is in We Were Soldiers, when LT Col Moore disobeyed a direct order by Gen Wm Westmorland to leave his troops to be "debriefed" by the General.

Second of all, this age thing. This age thing is okay to use as a joke, I sometimes talk about my school books being stone tablets, but some of you way over do it. It is almost like you are looking for something because of your inadequacy to make you feel like you actually have half the boner . . . Stupidity is one think but blindness based upon human weakness is another.

Humor comes first; some things about aging are funny. NDDomer5 and I had a great go round about how high I could jump anymore. Once (and a while). But that line gets crossed it quickly becomes stupidity, (like everyone else won't be there). And then it just becomes human blindness. Which is usually caused by fear.

For example, I will be 56 years old in three days. There are posters here that are old enough to be my father (more than one or two), but I have yet to meet a poster younger than my youngest son, Brendan. He is seven.


My oldest son happens to be thirty-two. My mentor who I took the name Bogtrotter from as an homage, who is a '55 ND grad, and has been amidst the 'troubles', is going to be 80 this year.

He is more vital, mentally and physically than most of you who make an issue out of age. I can relate to each one of these guys, enjoy all the time I spend with them and learn something new from each one every day!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

.
The Lookout


NSA whistle-blower’s girlfriend feels ‘adrift’

Lindsay Mills, the woman reported to be the 28-year-old girlfriend of purported National Security Agency whistle-blower Edward Snowden, says she feels adrift without her 29-year-old boyfriend, whom she says abandoned her in Hawaii and fled to Hong Kong.



"My world has opened and closed all at once. Leaving me lost at sea without a compass," Mills, a professional pole dancer, wrote on her blog, "L's Journey," on Monday. The blog post was written a day after Snowden, a former technical assistant for the CIA and ex-employee of defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton, was identified by the Guardian on Sunday as the source of its stories revealing the NSA's controversial telephone and Internet surveillance programs.

"As I type this on my tear-streaked keyboard I’m reflecting on all the faces that have graced my path," Mills continued. "The ones I laughed with. The ones I’ve held. The one I’ve grown to love the most. And the ones I never got to bid adieu. But sometimes life doesn’t afford proper goodbyes."

According to the Daily Mail, Mills and Snowden had been together since at least 2009.

"Surely there will be villainous pirates, distracting mermaids, and tides of change in this new open water chapter of my journey," Mills—who refers to Snowden as "E" and herself as a "world-traveling, pole-dancing super hero"—added. "But at the moment all I can feel is alone."

Snowden, who was interviewed by the U.K. newspaper in his hotel room in Hong Kong where he was hiding at the time, said he has no regrets about going public—even if he never sees his family again.

"I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things," Snowden said. "I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under. ... I can't in good conscience allow the U.S. government to destroy privacy, Internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."

Snowden said he decided to leave his family, girlfriend and a six-figure-a-year salary behind, and flew to Hong Kong on May 20.

On June 3, Mills wrote:

The past few weeks have been a cluster jumble of fun, disaster, and adventure. From pop-up homes to last-minute unplanned adventure to stressful moments that would give Gandhi indigestion. While I have been patiently asking the universe for a livelier schedule, I’m not sure I meant for it to dump half a year’s worth of experience in my lap in two weeks time. We’re talking biblical stuff — floods, deceit, loss. Somehow I’ve only managed a few tears amongst all of the madness of May. Waking up to June with hopes for a better swing of luck, only to find that I’ve lost my camera’s memory card that stored 90% of my trip’s memories. I feel alone, lost, overwhelmed, and desperate for a reprieve from the bipolar nature of my current situation. My coping response of the past was to [flee] to foreign lands. Trying to outrun my misfortune. But before I can sail away to lands unknown I need to wipe my misguided tears and reflect on all that is happening. Listen to my core. Find zen or something like it. And breathe into what little patience I have left.

The newspaper said it revealed Snowden's identity at his request. Booz Allen said it fired Snowden on Monday for "violations of the firm’s code of ethics."

"All my options are bad," Snowden told the Guardian. "I could be rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after me. Or any of the third-party partners.

"My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them," he added. "The only thing I can do is sit here and hope the Hong Kong government does not deport me. ... My predisposition is to seek asylum in a country with shared values. The nation that most encompasses this is Iceland. They stood up for people over Internet freedom. I have no idea what my future is going to be."

A petition urging the Obama administration to pardon Snowden was posted to the White House website on Sunday afternoon.

"Edward Snowden is a national hero and should be immediately issued a full, free, and absolute pardon for any crimes he has committed or may have committed related to blowing the whistle on secret NSA surveillance programs," the petition read.

 

[IrishinTN]

A professional pole dancer? Okay, is that a highfalutin name for a stripper, or is that an actual dance profession now?

 

[Cackalacky]

A professional pole dancer? Okay, is that a highfalutin name for a stripper, or is that an actual dance profession now?

As I understand it, they are not exempt from paying taxes, so yeah, I would say that is a profession

 

[Bogtrotter07]

..

Parents of Navy SEAL Killed in Afghan Crash File the First Suit on NSA Spying
The Atlantic WireBy Dashiell Bennett | The Atlantic Wire – 2 hrs 25 mins ago..

Parents of Navy SEAL Killed in Afghan Crash File the First Suit on NSA

A couple in Philadelphia has filed a class-action lawsuit against the National Security Agency and Verizon, claiming they and their phone records were targeted for surveillance because of their outspoken criticism of Barack Obama and the U.S. military. This is believed to be the first official lawsuit filed against the government and the company, since it was revealed that Verizon had been ordered to turn over phone metadata for all of its customers.

The couple who filed the class-action suit are not just any disgruntled Verizon customers, however. They are Charles and Mary Ann Strange, the parents of a Navy SEAL who was killed along with 37 others, when his helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan in 2011. Several of the families of those lost in the attack have questioned the Defense Department's official story of the incident — one of the deadliest single events of the entire war for American troops — and they specifically blame President Obama's polices for leading to those deaths. Among their many complaints: that Afghan forces working with the Americans may have set them up; that because many of those killed that day were members of the same unit that killed ***** bin *****, publicizing their role in the earlier mission made them targets for retaliation; and that rules of engagement prevented the helicopter and the men on it from fighting back. They also claim that a Muslim cleric was invited to speak at the funeral, who then insulted the dead servicemen in Arabic, although there's little evidence to support that charge.

RELATED: NSA Spying Appears to Stem from 550-Word Section of PATRIOT Act

The Stranges have already filed one lawsuit against Obama, Vice President Joe Biden, the Taliban, and the governments of Afghanistan and Iran, because of the helicopter attack, and they now claim that their phone records were accessed by NSA because "these Plaintiffs have been vocal about their criticism of President Obama as commander-in-chief," as well as the U.S. military. The new case names President Obama; Attorney General Eric Holder; NSA director Keith Alexander; and Verizon CEO Lowell McAdam among the defendants. The lawyer leading the way in both lawsuits is Larry Klayman, the founder of the controversial Judicial Watch, which sued President Bill Clinton 18 times when he was in office, and sued President George W. Bush and Dick Cheney over their secretive Energy Task Force in 2003. Klayman even sued Judicial Watch after an acrimonious split with the organization in 2006.

RELATED: How to Apply for Edward Snowden's Old Job

While this inaugural lawsuit may not have the strongest case against the NSA or the president, you can bet it won't be the last. You can read the whole filing [in the link] below.

PRISM Class

 

[BobD]

Two salient points. There is no organization, (especially the military) that swears it's agents or members to absolute obedience.!

The Military Oath

The Commissioning Oath

"I, _____ , having been appointed an officer in the (Service) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

The Enlistment Oath

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

 

[IrishinTN]

As I understand it, they are not exempt from paying taxes, so yeah, I would say that is a profession

Dude, you think they claim all those tips?

 

[NDFan4Life]

ACLU sues Obama administration over NSA surveillance

David Jackson, USA TODAY 6:47 p.m. EDT June 11, 2013

National Security Agency surveillance programs came under more scrutiny Tuesday as the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit and a prominent senator and Internet giant Google called on the Obama administration to disclose more information.

In its lawsuit, the ACLU said an NSA program that harvests phone calls violates the rights of all Americans.

"The program goes far beyond even the permissive limits set by the Patriot Act and represents a gross infringement of the freedom of association and the right to privacy," said Jameel Jaffer, the ACLU's deputy legal director.

Meanwhile, Google sought permission to disclose more details about another contested NSA program, one that allows the government to collect online information from non-U.S. citizens.

And Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee, told reporters she has asked Gen. Keith Alexander — the head of the NSA and U.S. Cyber Command — to declassify more information about its phone and Internet surveillance programs.

The goal is "so that we can talk about them, because I think they're really helpful," she said.

The Guardian and Washington Post disclosed these programs last week, based on leaks from a former NSA contract employee.

Edward Snowden, who is under investigation by the Justice Department for disclosure of classified information, fled to Hong Kong before announcing Sunday he was the source of the leaks. The consulting firm Booz Allen Hamilton issued a statement Tuesday confirming that Snowden had been fired from his $122,000-a-year job "for violations of the firm's code of ethics and firm policy."

President Obama and aides have defended the NSA phone and Internet intercept programs, saying they have helped prevent terrorist attacks and are subject to oversight by Congress and a special (and secret) court.

"They make a difference in our capacity to anticipate and prevent possible terrorist activity," Obama said, also citing "strict supervision by all three branches of government."

"They do not involve listening to people's phone calls, do not involve reading the e-mails of U.S. citizens or U.S. residents absent further action by a federal court that is entirely consistent with what we would do, for example, in a criminal investigation," Obama said.

In its lawsuit — which deals just with the phone call program — the ACLU said that the NSA collection system violates rights of free speech and privacy. The ACLU noted it is a customer of Verizon Business Network Services, the recipient of a secret court order published by The Guardian last week. The order requires Verizon to turn over all phone call details, including who places them, who receives them and when and where they are made.

"The crux of the government's justification for the program is the chilling logic that it can collect everyone's data now and ask questions later," said Alex Abdo, a staff attorney for the ACLU's National Security Project.

Google, meanwhile, says it has been an unwitting participant in the NSA Internet program known as PRISM. The company said it had never heard of PRISM until last week.

In a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director Robert Mueller, Google said it can prove it does not hand the government data on a broad scale if it is allowed to publicly discuss requests made under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).
"Google's numbers would clearly show that our compliance with these requests falls far short of the claims being made," wrote David Drummond, Google's chief legal officer. "Google has nothing to hide."

ACLU sues Obama administration over NSA surveillance

 

[chicago51]

I'm a big Eisenhower fan, not that he was perfect, he wasn't. However he warned us of the dangers of the military industrial complex and he was 100% correct on this. I wanted share a couple things as it relates in fact almost foreshadows what is occurring now.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xB2JBghZ_MU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Eisenhower said this:

“Modern weapons take food from the hungry and shelter from the homeless: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.”

Today Booz Allen Hamilton a private contractor for the NSA has an revenue stream from the government of $5.8 billion. Well the farm bill in the Senate cuts $4.1 billion from SNAP, the food stamp program, because we simply don't have the money. The House plan is expected to cut a lot more. So don't have the money for food stamps because the NSA uses Booz Allen Hamilton to spy on us. Regardless of what anyone may think of food stamps it does show how the military industrial complex which includes Homeland Security takes away from other things.

Here is another clip from Eisenhower's farewell address warning of the dangers of powers of the military industrial complex rather they be sought or unsought.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8y06NSBBRtY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The NSA, and the CIA are part of the military industrial complex. Eisenhower was 100% correct about the potential for misplaced power. He warned Americans as he was leaving office of this danger, and some of his future predecessors including our most recent one's did not listen.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

The Military Oath

The Commissioning Oath

"I, _____ , having been appointed an officer in the (Service) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

The Enlistment Oath

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Exactly,

True faith and allegiance. Now look at the UCMJ. "Well and faithfully discharge the duties of my office," has been used to prosecute war criminals for more than a century. I tried to figure out how many times it was used in Viet Nam, and it was used in at least every case of a soldier who claimed to be following orders at Son My Massacre. 26 men were prosecuted with this until they talked. Wm Calley was prosecuted and convicted of the rape and murder of 22 villagers, all though the total was much higher. Probably around 500 died. At least 28 women were raped before and after they were murdered by Calley's First Patoon, Charlie Company. This happened all over Viet Nam. The problem is that someone with a conscience witnessed this event. Please note that Thompson disobeyed a direct order placing his helicopter between Charley Company and the villagers, otherwise this would have never been reported.

Warrant Officer One Hugh Thompson, Jr., a helicopter pilot from an aero-scout team, saw a large number of dead and dying civilians as he began flying over the village—all of them infants, children, women, and old men, with no signs of draft-age men or weapons anywhere. Thompson and his crew witnessed an unarmed passive woman being kicked and shot at point-blank range by Captain Medina (Medina later claimed that he thought she had a grenade).[16] The crew made several attempts to radio for help for the wounded. They landed their helicopter by a ditch, which they noted was full of bodies and in which there was movement. Thompson asked a sergeant he encountered there (David Mitchell of the 1st Platoon) if he could help get the people out of the ditch, and the sergeant replied that he would "help them out of their misery". Thompson, shocked and confused, then spoke with Second Lieutenant Calley, who claimed to be "just following orders". As the helicopter took off, they saw Mitchell firing into the ditch.

Thompson then saw a group of civilians (again consisting of children, women and old men) at a bunker being approached by ground personnel. Thompson landed and told his crew that if the soldiers shot at the Vietnamese while he was trying to get them out of the bunker that they were to open fire at these soldiers. Thompson later testified that he spoke with a lieutenant (identified as Stephen Brooks of the 2nd Platoon) and told him there were women and children in the bunker, and asked if the lieutenant would help get them out. According to Thompson, "he [the lieutenant] said the only way to get them out was with a hand grenade". Thompson testified that he then told Brooks to "just hold your men right where they are, and I'll get the kids out". He found 12–16 people in the bunker, coaxed them out and led them to the helicopter, standing with them while they were flown out in two groups.

Returning to Mỹ Lai, Thompson and other air crew members noticed several large groups of bodies. Spotting some survivors in the ditch, Thompson landed again. A crew member entered the ditch and returned with a bloodied but apparently unharmed child who was flown to safety. The child was thought to be a boy, but later turned out to be a four-year-old girl. Thompson then reported what he had seen to his company commander, Major Frederic W. Watke, using terms such as "murder" and "needless and unnecessary killings". Thompson's reports were confirmed by other pilots and air crew.[17]

For their actions, Thompson was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) and his crew were awarded Bronze Star medals. Andreotta received his medal posthumously, as he was killed in action on April 8, 1968.[18] As the DFC citation included a fabricated account of rescuing a young girl from My Lai from "intense crossfire"[19] Thompson threw his medal away.[20][21] He later received a Purple Heart for other services in Vietnam.[22] In 1998, the helicopter crew's medals were replaced by the Soldier's Medal, "the highest the U.S. Army can award for bravery not involving direct conflict with the enemy". The medal citations state they were "for heroism above and beyond the call of duty while saving the lives of at least 10 Vietnamese civilians during the unlawful massacre of non-combatants by American forces at My Lai".[23] Thompson initially refused the medal when the US Army wanted to award it quietly. He demanded it be done publicly and that his crew also be honored in the same way.[24][25] The veterans also made contact with the survivors of Mỹ Lai.[26]

 

[DSully1995]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zRhjgynfhag" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wyden is on the Intelligence committee, he knows about the spying but cant tell, so he finds a way to get clapper that the NSA is spying on people.... and clapper straight out lies.

 

[BobD]

Tip 1: If people know you're doing something, it's not a secret.

 

[chicago51]

More on my earlier post:

We should have listened to Eisenhower

From Eisenhower:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes."

 

[MJ12666]

Thomas Jefferson said:

"The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive."

This certainly applies to most of the individuals commenting under this topic.

 

[Buster Bluth]

 

[DSully1995]

Tip 1: If people know you're doing something, it's not a secret.

Are you replying to me? Because only 8 people knew about it in congress, the ones on the intelligence committee. But, they cant talk about what they learn there, so its basically unknown at the time of the hearing.

(if you were just making a general statement, ignore this)

 

[chicago51]

I'm somewhat of a Ben Franklin admirer and I agree with his quote.

Every recent President, Congress, and Supreme Court has largely forgotten this. I would Jimmy Carter was only President post Kennedy that may have agreed with this. Eisenhower was arguably the most important American WW2 military figure besides Douglas MacArthur and Kennedy also served in navy in the Pacific during WW2 and it seems that guys that actually served during really military combat have greater concern for the power our Military Industrial and Security complex has.

 

[BobD]

I've seen this Ben Franklin quote used a few times the last few days. It's misquoted a lot and he's not saying what many might think.

Lawfare › What Ben Franklin Really Said

 

[phgreek]

I've seen this Ben Franklin quote used a few times the last few days. It's misquoted a lot and he's not saying what many might think.

Lawfare › What Ben Franklin Really Said

Franklin's quote aside...the risk to Liberty is based on how we seek to pursue security...I thought that was obvious.

 

[BobD]

Franklin's quote aside...the risk to Liberty is based on how we seek to pursue security...I thought that was obvious.

Not necessarily true. While somewhat implied, there is no right to privacy in our constitution. Liberty is infringed upon by restrictions, not by monitoring.


lib·er·ty
/ˈlibərtē/
Noun
The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life.
An instance of this; a right or privilege, esp. a statutory one.

 

[chicago51]

Not necessarily true. While somewhat implied, there is no right to privacy in our constitution. Liberty is infringed upon by restrictions, not by monitoring.


lib·er·ty
/ˈlibərtē/
Noun
The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life.
An instance of this; a right or privilege, esp. a statutory one.

The Supreme Court who is supposed to be much smarter than me has said that you are right about this. Though these same people essentially that corporations have political personhood and money is a form of free speech so I don't put much stock in the Supreme Court. Nevertheless the Supreme Court has not struck down the Patriot Act to this point so, yes the Supreme Court has said the right to privacy is not a constitutional right, making you correct.

However you could make the case that it should be through these amendments (again the courts may not agree but I'm saying one could make a good arguement):

Amendemnt IV: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'll say that the Obama administration should get a little bit of props here as it has gone through the FISA court for all these things unlike the Bush administration at times.

That said the FISA court is a very isolated and insolated court. The FISA court only deals with the government it hears the government side of the arguement and the civil liberties side really doesn't get make their arguement. Both sides of judical arguement need to be heard.

Amendment IX: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Unenumerated rights are legal rights inferred from other legal rights that are officiated in a retrievable form codified by law institutions, such as in written constitutions, but are not themselves expressly coded or "enumerated" among the explicit writ of the law. Alternative terminology sometimes used are: implied rights, natural rights, background rights, and fundamental rights

 

[phgreek]

Not necessarily true. While somewhat implied, there is no right to privacy in our constitution. Liberty is infringed upon by restrictions, not by monitoring.


lib·er·ty
/ˈlibərtē/
Noun
The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life.
An instance of this; a right or privilege, esp. a statutory one.

Uhm...the fear of being monitored is in the effect restrictive and oppressive...no formal restriction required....and it speaks to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (or in your websters rendition of liberty 'way of life') when normal people must worry about "monitoring", and what someone in government who decides they belong to the wrong group would do with their digital docier.

To me this isn't even an argument...NSA is out of bounds...GTF back between the bumpers.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Not necessarily true. While somewhat implied, there is no right to privacy in our constitution. Liberty is infringed upon by restrictions, not by monitoring.

It's not just monitoring, Bob; if they were merely trolling meta data for suspicious patterns, and then getting a warrant from the FISA court (which appears to be little more than a rubber stamp, but different issue), your argument would be more persuasive.

But they're storing everything. How is that different from intercepting my physical correspondence, opening it, copying it, and then sending it on to the addressee? That's a pretty serious invasion of privacy.

What if you decide to run for office someday? Your incumbent opponent happens to serve on the Senate's Intelligence Committee, so he calls in a favor at NSA and suddenly all sorts of sensitive personal data is available to be leaked to the public. The prospect for abuse is staggering.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Thomas Jefferson said:

"The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive."

This certainly applies to most of the individuals commenting under this topic.

Full context:

Wed Jul 14, 2010 at 07:08 PM PDT.

Watering The Tree Of Liberty With The Blood Of Idiots

by bernardpliersFollow .​

The Tea party and militias (including Tim Mcveigh) love this Thomas Jefferson quote:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants

Jefferson was actually describing Shays' Rebellion, which was on the minds of the folks at the Constitutional Convention. Although Jefferson saw the short-lived uprising as ignorant people being whipped up, he still regarded them as patriotic, if not very bright.

I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all and always well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive..... Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon, and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

Jefferson said rebellion sprouts among the ignorant, and the death of the occasional rebellious dingbat was also the price of liberty. He and several of the Founders also emphasized pardoning the rebels.

James Iredell picks up the theme of Shays' Rebellion, ignorance, and mercy

We have seen a happy instance of the good effect of such an exercise of mercy in the state of Massachusetts, where, very lately, there was so formidable an insurrection. I believe a great majority of the insurgents were drawn into it by false artifices. They at length saw their error, and were willing to disband. Government, by a wise exercise of lenity, after having shown its power, generally granted a pardon; and the whole party were dispersed. There is now as much peace in that country as in any state in the Union.

I'm sure there are more nuanced interpretations of Shays' Rebellion, which involved settlers being pushed off their land by real estate developers, currency speculators, lawyers, and corrupt judges.

But Jefferson's comments about these rebels-without-a-clue seems to have held up quite well. When today's armchair rebels use this Jefferson quote that describes them as ignorant and misinformed, they certainly seem to lack any sort of self awareness or even basic reading skills.

It really caught my eye over at RedState where they were having their monthly Civil War II circle jerk where they relive the trauma of school integration in Little Rock and fantasize about walling off the cities as if they were the Warsaw Ghetto. The writer used the Jefferson quote, and I said, wait, that guy just called himself an idiot. Not surprisingly, a similar lack of self awareness can be seen in the Paultards.

Originally posted to bernardpliers on Wed Jul 14, 2010 at 07:08 PM PDT.

 

[phgreek]

Full context:

I did not come to the same conclusion as "bernardpliersFollow".

While in context of Shay's rebellion, it may be rebels were "dingbats"...but it wasn't their "dinginess" that caused the quotable to be spoken. I highly doubt any contemporary, much less Jefferson, would generalize that "dingbat" sentiment to all Rebels...THINK ABOUT IT!

"bernardpliersFollow" should read his last few paragraphs while looking in the mirror...he might also consider that the scholarly historical "context" turns out to be trivia.

 

[BobD]

More from the Traitor.

New report: Britain spied on G-20 delegates in 2009 - CNN.com

 

[pkt77242]

It's not just monitoring, Bob; if they were merely trolling meta data for suspicious patterns, and then getting a warrant from the FISA court (which appears to be little more than a rubber stamp, but different issue), your argument would be more persuasive.

But they're storing everything. How is that different from intercepting my physical correspondence, opening it, copying it, and then sending it on to the addressee? That's a pretty serious invasion of privacy.

What if you decide to run for office someday? Your incumbent opponent happens to serve on the Senate's Intelligence Committee, so he calls in a favor at NSA and suddenly all sorts of sensitive personal data is available to be leaked to the public. The prospect for abuse is staggering.

Sorry Whisky it isn't the same thing.

It is the same thing as looking at who you are mailing items too and recording that info (and how often you contact them) but not opening it and then sending it on. That is a big difference. I agree that the potential for abuse is high but it is not the same as opening your letters.

 

[chicago51]

I'll say this if Snowden was a real hero, he would have stayed here. To my understanding whistle blowers are protected.

Martin Luther King was a hero because he didn't run to China. Ghandi didn't leave India.