Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

[Cackalacky]

When do you think we all find out that their still waterboarding people?

Right after we find out the Gitmo detainees have been getting cockmeat sandwiches for lunch.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

A traitor? No way. Hero... meh. Does anyone know why he chose the Guardian over a US outlet? I have a couple of ideas. Our press is no longer as free as we like to think.

If a whistleblower blows the truth, then I have no problems. This is not getting 10 minutes of fame, this is putting in indelible ink what our previous fears only speculated. Wikileaks, Manning,.... I don't consider them heroes or traitors but exposing our government corruption is by all means a fair thing to do. I would hope people would have the gumption to do it more often. That's the reason for the free press (which we consequently lack now).

I don't think he's specifically said, but the conjecture is that Glenn Greenwald and The Guardian would have the investigatory wherewithall (ahem, NYT/WaPo) and resources to investigate how deep the story could go.

 

[BobD]

A traitor? No way. Hero... meh. Does anyone know why he chose the Guardian over a US outlet? I have a couple of ideas. Our press is no longer as free as we like to think.

If a whistleblower blows the truth, then I have no problems. This is not getting 10 minutes of fame, this is putting in indelible ink what our previous fears only speculated. Wikileaks, Manning,.... I don't consider them heroes or traitors but exposing our government corruption is by all means a fair thing to do. I would hope people would have the gumption to do it more often. That's the reason for the free press (which we consequently lack now).

trea·son (trzn)
n.
1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

trai·tor (trtr)
n.
One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

 

[Cackalacky]

trea·son (trzn)
n.

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

Who was the enemy? The United States Population? He alerted the whole world. Is the whole world our enemy? is the american public the enemy? If so then that is truly ****ed up.

2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

Whose? We are all guilty of this then on a personal level.

trai·tor (trtr)
n.
One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

So are a free press and journalists who practice it traitorous? Just curious. Was Deep Throat a traitor?

 

[Cackalacky]

I don't think he's specifically said, but the conjecture is that Glenn Greenwald and The Guardian would have the investigatory wherewithall (ahem, NYT/WaPo) and resources to investigate how deep the story could go.

It was a rhetorical question. sorry. I realized the US government would have less power or control over a foreign press outlet.

 

[enrico514]

Ron Paul quotes:

What most undermines the claims of the Administration and its defenders about this surveillance program is the process itself. First the government listens in on all of our telephone calls without a warrant and then if it finds something it goes to a FISA court and get an illegal approval for what it has already done! This turns the rule of law and due process on its head.

The government does not need to know more about what we are doing. We need to know more about what the government is doing. We need to turn the cameras on the police and on the government, not the other way around. We should be thankful for writers like Glenn Greenwald, who broke last week’s story, for taking risks to let us know what the government is doing. There are calls for the persecution of Greenwald and the other whistle-blowers and reporters. They should be defended, as their work defends our freedom.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I am having a hard time seeing this as a traitorous act.

He exposed a secret covert program, that if it is all that it is billed, violates the Constitution thoroughly, which makes those running the Prism program traitors.

What you are describing is more of a stunt. Unless they find readings of insanity, most people are unwilling to go into hiding and subject their family to harassment, arrest, (torture) excuse me, questioning, all for the sake of "pulling off a stunt."

And I can't find it in my heart to believe anyone who calls a guy like this a traitor, for exposing a top secret program with a sole purpose of covertly collecting with swaths of data, without adequate oversight.

 

[FLDomer]

I am having a hard time seeing this as a traitorous act.

He exposed a secret covert program, that if it is all that it is billed, violates the Constitution thoroughly, which makes those running the Prism program traitors.

What you are describing is more of a stunt. Unless they find readings of insanity, most people are unwilling to go into hiding and subject their family to harassment, arrest, (torture) excuse me, questioning, all for the sake of "pulling off a stunt."

And I can't find it in my heart to believe anyone who calls a guy like this a traitor, for exposing a top secret program with a sole purpose of covertly collecting with swaths of data, without adequate oversight.

BINGO!

 

[Cackalacky]

We need to amend the 4th to include electronic devices and metadata. This is the kind of stuff our founders could not think of and why they left us the power to change the document they initiated.

 

[WaveDomer]

We need to amend the 4th to include electronic devices and metadata. This is the kind of stuff our founders could not think of and why they left us the power to change the document they initiated.

I would actually say that this is exactly the kind of thing our Founders thought of. Not specifically "metadata" but government abuse. I don't think it needs to be amended. It just needs to be followed.

 

[Cackalacky]

I would actually say that this is exactly the kind of thing our Founders thought of. Not specifically "metadata" but government abuse. I don't think it needs to be amended. It just needs to be followed.

Thats what I meant. They could not imagine the form. Papers and persons is not arguable in a general sense but in a specific sense is very limited. Does metadata constitute your property? Are your electronic fingerprints in the interwebz your property?

 

[WestCoast]

I am having a hard time seeing this as a traitorous act.

He exposed a secret covert program, that if it is all that it is billed, violates the Constitution thoroughly, which makes those running the Prism program traitors.

What you are describing is more of a stunt. Unless they find readings of insanity, most people are unwilling to go into hiding and subject their family to harassment, arrest, (torture) excuse me, questioning, all for the sake of "pulling off a stunt."

And I can't find it in my heart to believe anyone who calls a guy like this a traitor, for exposing a top secret program with a sole purpose of covertly collecting with swaths of data, without adequate oversight.

(my post isn't meant to disagree, but I'm using your discussion to share my thoughts).

I have not read enough to determine if this guy's actions amount to treason, but I also have difficulty calling him a hero.

If he felt justified in breaking the law (and I think everyone agrees he did this) by revealing national secrets, if he really believes it was necessary then why run and hide?

There are times to stand up to authority, even if there are significant consequences. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is an incredible example of this. Where/when did we adopt the thinking that standing up for your convictions should absolve us of any repercussions?

(As an aside, isn't he putting his family in jeopardy by running, thereby drawing attention to them, instead of turning himself in, being the lone target and accepting whatever punishment comes from his act?)

 

[BobD]

trea·son (trzn)
n.
Who was the enemy? The United States Population? He alerted the whole world. Is the whole world our enemy? is the american public the enemy? If so then that is truly ****ed up.
Whose? We are all guilty of this then on a personal level.

So are a free press and journalists who practice it traitorous? Just curious. Was Deep Throat a traitor?

He broke the law, he committed a felony by giving away state secrets and he broke his contract with the US government. He is a traitor and he'll be tried as such. As someone working in the intelligence community, he was well aware of where to go if he had any issues with the orders he was given. Oh yeah, then he fled to Hong Kong (China). He's toast.

 

[BobD]

We need to amend the 4th to include electronic devices and metadata. This is the kind of stuff our founders could not think of and why they left us the power to change the document they initiated.

I would actually say that this is exactly the kind of thing our Founders thought of. Not specifically "metadata" but government abuse. I don't think it needs to be amended. It just needs to be followed.

Thats what I meant. They could not imagine the form. Papers and persons is not arguable in a general sense but in a specific sense is very limited. Does metadata constitute your property? Are your electronic fingerprints in the interwebz your property?

Our founding fathers would have this idiot hung by the neck or shot for giving away state secrets. Duty and honor were popular back then. just ask dshans , Boggs or OMM

 

[Cackalacky]

Our founding fathers would have this idiot hung by the neck or shot for giving away state secrets. Duty and honor were popular back then. just ask dshans , Boggs or OMM

Unconstitutional state secrets?

 

[Booslum31]

(my post isn't meant to disagree, but I'm using your discussion to share my thoughts).

I have not read enough to determine if this guy's actions amount to treason, but I also have difficulty calling him a hero.

If he felt justified in breaking the law (and I think everyone agrees he did this) by revealing national secrets, if he really believes it was necessary then why run and hide?

There are times to stand up to authority, even if there are significant consequences. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is an incredible example of this. Where/when did we adopt the thinking that standing up for your convictions should absolve us of any repercussions?

(As an aside, isn't he putting his family in jeopardy by running, thereby drawing attention to them, instead of turning himself in, being the lone target and accepting whatever punishment comes from his act?)

I agree that he shouldn't gone into hiding...stand up and be accountable. It's hard to conceive that he broke the law by defending the constitution but that's what he did. I think that he's going to be OK in the end. I think that our government is drunk with power and doesn't want the buzz to go away. I've also noticed that people like to get behind the constitution only when it suits them or when their "ox is being gored".

 

[Buster Bluth]

(my post isn't meant to disagree, but I'm using your discussion to share my thoughts).

I have not read enough to determine if this guy's actions amount to treason, but I also have difficulty calling him a hero.

If he felt justified in breaking the law (and I think everyone agrees he did this) by revealing national secrets, if he really believes it was necessary then why run and hide?

There are times to stand up to authority, even if there are significant consequences. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is an incredible example of this. Where/when did we adopt the thinking that standing up for your convictions should absolve us of any repercussions?

(As an aside, isn't he putting his family in jeopardy by running, thereby drawing attention to them, instead of turning himself in, being the lone target and accepting whatever punishment comes from his act?)

This is a pretty silly side thought on the matter.

If you had the choice between living in federal prison for the rest of your life, or living in Hong Kong (or Iceland, where he has stated he wants to seek political asylum in), what would you pick?!

He only revealed himself so that he wouldn't be killed by the US--errr, excuse me, "disappeared."

The only logical choice one can make in this situation is to get to somewhere safe.

 

[Cackalacky]

Didn't Obama want to protect whistleblowers at one point?
Obama Signs Whistleblower Protection Bill into Law - Corruption Currents - WSJ LoL. I doubt this covers the NSA or CIA.

 

[chicago51]

It is bad enough that the government spies on us but then it outsources it to private for profit corporations. Not only do these corporations cost more tax payer money but they only answer to profit, at least the government to a lose extent still has to answer to the public.

How Private Contractors Like Booz Allen Cost Taxpayers More
By Bryce Covert on Jun 10, 2013 at 3:45 pm

Booz Allen facility in Maryland (Credit: Jeffrey MacMillan/Capital Business)
When the National Security Administration (NSA) leaker outed himself over the weekend, Edward Snowden revealed that he was most recently an employee of Booz Allen Hamilton, a private sector contractor that works with the federal government on a variety of projects, including national security. As the New York Times reported on Monday, the company has grown over the last decade in large part thanks to the expansion of these projects in the post-9/11 era, raking in $1.3 billion, or nearly a quarter of its total revenue, from government intelligence work in the most recent fiscal year.

Other companies like Lockheed Martin and the Computer Sciences Corporation also get paid well by the government for information gathering and analysis like the kind described in Snowden’s leak. The NSA used to work with a handful of firms but now works with hundreds. These companies were brought in during the post-9/11 intelligence boom to keep up with the expansion. But they cost much more than having government employees do the work themselves.

While the total budget for intelligence work is kept secret, as Hayes Brown wrote earlier on ThinkProgress, “For Fiscal Year 2014, the Obama administration requested $48.2 billion for the National Intelligence Program, encompassing ‘six Federal departments, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.’ Of that amount, according to a 2007 article, an amazing 70 percent goes towards private contractors.” That’s a lot of money.

Those high costs may be thanks to the higher cost of paying a contract employee over a federal worker. As Brown wrote:

Many former government employees make the switch into private contracting, which can serve to drive up the amount they wind up costing the American taxpayer. A 2007 report to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence found that the average government employee working as an intelligence analyst cost $126,500, while the same work performed by a contractor would cost the government an average $250,000 including overhead.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence reports that the government pays intelligence contractors 1.66 times what it costs to have the work done by federal employees. Yet it has outsourced 28 percent of the intelligence workforce.

In a testimony before the Senate Committee on Homeland Security, the Project on Government Oversight (POGO) similarly reported that outsourcing intelligence functions to private contractors costs taxpayers 83 percent more on average than having a federal employee do the work. While competition between contracts can allow the government to bargain for lower prices, POGO asked, “Is the government actually making contracting decisions based on cost-saving concerns?”
Overall, a 2011 report from POGO found that the federal government pays contractors 1.83 times what it pays federal employees for the same services and more than two times standard pay in the private sector.

Meanwhile, the reliance on these workers for government functions is growing. More than 530,000 defense contracting jobs are in Virginia, where most of the federal level workers are located. The POGO study reports that while the federal workforce has remained flat since 1999, the contractor workforce has shot up from 4.4 million then to 7.6 million in 2007, four times larger than the number of government employees.

How Private Contractors Like Booz Allen Cost Taxpayers More

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Our founding fathers would have this idiot hung by the neck or shot for giving away state secrets. Duty and honor were popular back then. just ask dshans , Boggs or OMM

I am overwhelmed by the irony of this post. Our founding fathers were traitors.

At what point, in your estimation, is a government employee justified in whistle blowing?

 

[WestCoast]

This is a pretty silly side thought on the matter.

If you had the choice between living in federal prison for the rest of your life, or living in Hong Kong (or Iceland, where he has stated he wants to seek political asylum in), what would you pick?!

He only revealed himself so that he wouldn't be killed by the US--errr, excuse me, "disappeared."

The only logical choice one can make in this situation is to get to somewhere safe.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer left Nazi Germany and had the option of staying out of the country. He went back, despite the certainty of losing his life and stood by his convictions. He did "lose" his life. I encourage you to read about his life.

The story of his life, and the contrast of your response, is exactly what I am talking about.

 

[BobD]

Unconstitutional state secrets?

Fortunately they aren't unconstitutional. I know many would want them to be, some will try to argue they were, but they aren't and I think you know that. That argument would go nowhere. The program has and will continue to have strong bipartisan approval by the key members needed.

Reform the Patriot Act | American Civil Liberties Union

 

[chicago51]

The Guardian posted more on government using private for profit corporations for spying and surveillance operations.

Snowden leak shines light on US intelligence agencies' use of contractors | World news | guardian.co.uk

I personally would rather have surveillance (if your going to do it) being done by the government who ultimately has to answer to the people rather than a for private corporation that only has to answer to their share holders.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Fortunately they aren't unconstitutional. I know many would want them to be, some will try to argue they were, but they aren't and I think you know that. That argument would go nowhere. The program has and will continue to have strong bipartisan approval by the key members needed.

Reform the Patriot Act | American Civil Liberties Union

Legal != constitutional

The Patriot Act is all kinds of unconstitutional.

 

[BobD]

I am overwhelmed by the irony of this post. Our founding fathers were traitors.

At what point, in your estimation, is a government employee justified in whistle blowing?

They should never be a whistle blower. Anyone with a Top Secret clearance knows very well what to do if they feel they are being given orders that aren't legal or they disagree with.

 

[chicago51]

Legal != constitutional

The Patriot Act is all kinds of unconstitutional.

If I was on the Supreme Court I would agree with you and say it was unconsitutional.

However neither you nor I are on the Supreme Court which said it was Constitutional so for better or worse that is what we have to go by.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

They should never be a whistle blower. Anyone with a Top Secret clearance knows very well what to do if they feel they are being given orders that aren't legal or they disagree with.

I've spoken with Catholics who feel the same way about the Pedophilic Priest whistleblowers.

No institution is worthy of such absolute loyalty. Particularly not one with such a poor record as the Federal government.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I personally would rather have surveillance (if your going to do it) being done by the government who ultimately has to answer to the peope rather than a for private corporation that only has to answer to their share holders.

You haven't been paying attention to the federal government the last fifty years or so, have you?

 

[chicago51]

I am overwhelmed by the irony of this post. Our founding fathers were traitors.

At what point, in your estimation, is a government employee justified in whistle blowing?

Agree with the post, however I just wanted to point out the guy (Snowden) was not a government employee at the time he got the information on Verizon.

Snowden actually worked for Booz Allen Hamilton, which is actually a private for profit corporation, that the government outsources to.

 

[chicago51]

You haven't been paying attention to the federal government the last fifty years or so, have you?

Been paying attention plenty, it has been a major failure for the American people that we have elected corporate pawns.

Have you been paying attention to large corporations the last 30 years? It is not like they've been the good guys?

Don't get me wrong government outright stinks at times but if there was more transparency and accountability I would certainly chose that over a private corporation.