Addressing ND's Recruiting Disadvantages

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

I don't think it would be fair to the players.

 

[NOLAIrish]

I'd love to ask Swarbrick about challenging this NCAA rule during his next Google+ hangout. If ND, Stanford, Vandy, etc. were able to freely convert athletic scholarships into academic ones, it would go a long way toward closing the recruiting gap between the SEC and everyone else.

I'd be very interested in hearing what he has to say on the topic. It's not an easy fix within the current framework. The NCAA currently only permits one-year athletic scholarships (I think this was asked earlier: ND, like every other NCAA school, only provides one-year awards for athletes; this is actually required by NCAA bylaw 15.3.3.1). If you changed the rule so that SEC-style academic scholarships counted you might create a perverse situation where SEC coaches actually work to prevent non-renewed student-athletes from getting merit-based aid. Even moving to a system where there's a set of minimum benchmarks would likely leave SEC schools in this position: as I pointed out earlier, many of the problematic scholarships have lower standards than the admission standards of the schools themselves (NOTE: I don't want to give the impression that this is some nefarious scheme; TOPS standards are lower than LSU admissions standards because TOPS is available for students at any Louisiana university, many of which also have lower admissions standards).

I could see Swarbrick et al. using this to argue in favor of a mandatory 4-year athletic scholarship. Then the question becomes simple: is the student-athlete still participating in athletics? Yes = Counter; No = Non-Counter. Either way, the school must provide his eduction unless he committed some act that broke the agreement, e.g. a school/NCAA violation. That seems like the least gnarly solution to the issue, as well as a long-term solution to many other recruiting problems.

 

[ndstudent1]

I am assuming this includes fifth years and possibly a spot for Slaughter. Correct? Any chance Kelly starts asking people like Massa to pass on their scholarship or others who wont ever see the field?

Not saying he would and not saying it is the right thing to do, just curious, if it is possible we could get all of them and decimate USCs class.

Didn't Slaughter's appeal for a fifth year get denied?

 

[Junkhead]

Didn't Slaughter's appeal for a fifth year get denied?

Yes, but he is appealing.

 

[ndstudent1]

Yes, but he is appealing.

Well, considering NCAA and its record when it comes to football players' appeals.....I'd say very unlikely he'll be back

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Interesting discussion. I dont know that I feel like there is anything unethical about transfering scholarships from athletic to academic. Realistically, if you're not cracking the 2-3 deep by your junior year, you're probably not going to and the NFL has evolved into a pipe dream. As long as the kid still gets his degree, it's a win-win situation.

Also, to throw a curve ball into the discussion. Do those employed by ND get any kind of tuition remission? I work for Rutgers University, and am getting a free masters degree because I am an employee of the university. If ND offered the student a job in exchange for his scholarship, we wouldn't have any NCAA regs to deal with.

I know it sounds like a crazy idea. But, there is no way the job he would have would be more difficult to juggle than being a full time football players. I work 8-4 and go to class from 6-9 a few nights a week. Also, they could set him up with a job that gave him some work experience to put on his resume that coincided with his degree. For example, if he's working on an Political Science Degree he could get some experience analyzing policy..etc.

 

[stlnd01]

Also, to throw a curve ball into the discussion. Do those employed by ND get any kind of tuition remission? I work for Rutgers University, and am getting a free masters degree because I am an employee of the university. If ND offered the student a job in exchange for his scholarship, we wouldn't have any NCAA regs to deal with.

I know it sounds like a crazy idea. But, there is no way the job he would have would be more difficult to juggle than being a full time football players. I work 8-4 and go to class from 6-9 a few nights a week. Also, they could set him up with a job that gave him some work experience to put on his resume that coincided with his degree. For example, if he's working on an Political Science Degree he could get some experience analyzing policy..etc.

I believe they do have tuition remission for employees, but it's nowhere near a full ride.

The biggest issue I have with this kind of idea: At a school where annual tuition, room and board tops $50,000, the setup you're proposing is hardly fair to all the other students (not to mention the student-athletes in other sports who are on less-than-full scholarships).

It's one thing if a football player suffers a career-ending injury to say "we'll honor your scholarship for four years." That's the honorable thing to do, and pretty rare. But to routinely flip kids over to a full academic scholarship just because they're not good enough to see the football field is kind of disrespectful to all the parents who are sacrificing, and/or kids who are incurring huge debt in order to attend Notre Dame. It's not even a matter of university resources so much as the message it sends.

There's a lot of kids who put in a lot of time - even football-player-level time - in other important avenues of campus life and get no special tuition breaks at all. Is a guy who never panned out as a wide receiver of more worth to the campus community than, say, the president of a dorm or the editor of the Observer?

Creating a special class of scholarships essentially for "former football players," all so you can clear out the dead wood and sign more football players, smacks of establishing exactly the kind of dual-class student body - "football players" and "the rest of us" - that Notre Dame so rightly prides itself in trying to avoid.

 

[irishtrain]

The sad part is if you want run with the Big Dogs you have to act like the Big Dogs.

They will win by doing it the Notre Dame way. Will they win a national championship-probably not under the present pro football minor league rules other schools operate under. I still hang my hat with the Notre Dame way. One thing is certain they now will get the very best football player who wants to be a student from a school that sets him up with a great education. In the past 15 years its been one or two studs per year and fill ins. Now almost the entire roster can play. Are they Alabam/Lsu-hell no-thats pro football entertainment for your campus weekends. But Notre Dame under Kelly is going nowhere. They are young and return many and now you see them stockpile players. Its a bright future. I wouldnt trade Notre Dame for 10 Alabamas. They'll find their way to another chance at all the marbles by doing it the right way. I only hope the next time they get another shot a Alabama.

 

[Fbolt]

ND disadvantages? Please....

Top 25 and better recruiting classes consistently over the past 4 years. ND is winning, at least last year, and recruiting rankings reflect that.

What does everyone want to complain about? That Kelly's not bending the rules enough?

 

[Green Mountains]

Turning lemons into lemonade.....
I think NOT pulling is a huge recruiting advantage for ND. Every kid thinks he has 3 or 4 years to the NFL. So the risk to them is minor. However, the parents will understand it's not a minor risk.

If Junior is not pro bowler and is simply another player in college (and can't even make the 2 deeps), ND will stand behind the scholarship, and Junior WILL graduate with a degree (and no debt). SEC schools can't make that claim. USC can't make that claim. UM can't make that claim. Only ONE division 1 university provides that opportunity.

ND offers two unique differences. If Junior is all world, he will get his education. If he tears up his knee and can't play (or has a very short career) at the next level, he has a top tier degree for the rest of his life. If, on the other hand, Junior isn't as good as we all thought and hoped, he will not have his scholarship pulled. It's really a no lose situation for the kid. And that has to play to parents.

I believe not ever pulling a scholarship helps ND more than it hurts.

 

[GowerND11]

I feel like we are missing the point about being a team here as well. Just because you aren't in the two deep doesn't mean you aren't important to the team. Look at guys we have praised here that were fantastic special teams players, but never cracked the 2 Deep. What about Walker? We praised the fact that he never complained or transferred despite being a "bust." Every single player on the 85 is important. I agree more top talent is always a great thing, but this is not the right way to do it. There are plenty of players, on any team, that might not see meaningful playing time, yet they bust their a$$ and when they are seniors provide a helping hand and brain for the young players. You might be fourth on the depth chart, but be the smartest guy out there who can help the team anyway you can.

 

[ND NYC]

SIAP

we get a couple academic exceptions for each class (this started back up with CW-Lou was last to have them)

all NCAA scholarhsips are techinically/legally one year scholarships---but we honor them as 4 yr degrees (unlike others)