Opinions/Discussions on Guns

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Bogtrotter07

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I was thinking about one of Wooly's ideas, (no, not when I was in the shower this morning Whiskey). And I think it has legs. If you amp the punishment on gun crimes, and the owners, with the idea that it gets adjudicated much like motor vehicles. Was the gun reported stolen prior to the crime? That would have to provide no more than a ticket-able liability if the gun was not secured adequately.

However, if a person legally owned a gun, and did not disclose that they had a convicted felon, person treated for mental illness, etc., or the gun was not secured from children, and used in a crime, they would have significant criminal liability. I believe this would be the last piece to be put in place, after treating mental health issues, and a few other things like limiting magazine capacity and availability of rocket launchers, but I believe this could be good . . .
 

DomerInHappyValley

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Bogs what is adequately secured?
In my house with doors locked should be adequate enough.
Why punish someone because criminals gonna criminal?
Should I have to keep it disassembled?
DC had that law. Heller v DC shot it down as unconstitutional.
Philly tried to pass a law if you don't report a gun stolen in a certain time frame. It didn't take.
 

RDU Irish

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Sorry to butt in on this conversation. I think that the problem that we are all trying to solve is that of crazy (dare I say "evil"?) people killing other people. I would think that, if we are truly concerned about solving that problem rather than simply grinding axes about what ever side we stand on any particular issue, we would first want to determine whether any action we support would have any measurable effect on solving the problem. For example, for those who think banning or restricting certain types of guns would help solve the problem--is there any emperical evidence to support that position? We have a track record to look at, both at the state level with the thousands of "gun control" laws that already exist and, more to the point, at the federal level. For the statistical gurus out there, is there any evidence at all that the previous ban on "assault weapons" had any measurablle effect on crime committed with guns? Shouldn't we care about whether whatever actions we take or support are likely to have an effect on actually solving the problem at hand, based on all available evidence, before we waste our time and energy on projects that may have no effect at all on the problem we are trying to solve? I think that there are a number of areas that would be worthy of exploration if we are truly concerned about solving the instant problem, and not just feeling good because we are "doing something," whether or not what we are doing is going to have any effect on the problem.

For example, I heard on the news today that the shooter's parents were divorced. In the early '70's, most, if not all, states revamped their divorce statutes and adopted "no-fault" divorce. The effect on society of treating marriage as nothing more than a simple contract (really, not even as strong as a simple contract--if you breach a contract to, say, build a house, there will typically be some consequences, but if you breach the marriage contract, oh well, it just didn't work out and its nobody's fault) has been huge. About 50% of marriages, many involving children, now end in divorce. There is a raft of empirical evidence of the detrimental effect this has had on our society on numerous levels, and particularly on the children involved, especially when custody is at issue. Should we maybe take a hard look at how we treat the institution of marriage and the nuclear family and determine whether the way we currently treat that institution is contributing to creating the defective morons who go out and commit these heinous acts? On a related issue, does anybody else think that the rising number (almost 50% now in the "white" community, significantly higher among "people of color") of children born out of wedlock might contribute in some measure to the problem we are dealing with? I was in court this morning dealing with a support case where a mother had 6 kids by 6 different fathers. The sad thing is, this is not all that unusual. Any thoughts about the chances that these kids are going to be the good, stable, people we would like to have in our society, who would never think of just going out and slaughtering a bunch of people? I am just asking whether anybody else thinks that an exploration of these issues, and dealing with them, might be more productive in actually solving the current problem we are facing than screaming "we need more gun control laws!" Harder, I am sure, but maybe more effective.

And, while I am at it, where is the ACLU on this? They, and other organizations of like ilk, have done everything that they can to eradicate any mention of God or religion or religious values from the public square, most of the time on the theory that any such thing constitutes an "unconstitutional government endorsement of religion." You all know what I am talking about--no nativity scenes in public places, Ten Commandments monuments and plaques forcibly removed from city halls and schools throughout the country, lawsuits to remove the words "under God" from the pledge of allegience, and on and on ad infinitum. In the city where I practice, they had to take down a STAR, yes a simple star, from the courthouse, and there is no longer any Christmas tree in the hallway anymore--"too religious." Again, I ask where the ACLU is on this recent tragedy. I see govenment officials, right up to the President himself, attending prayer vigils in government buildings to pray for the victims and their families. Doesn't help under the constitution that many times these are labeled "non-denominational," the Supreme Court has ruled many times that endorsement of any religion over non-religion is as unconstitional as an endorsement of one religion over the other. Just wonder why the ACLU is not making as huge of a hue and cry over our elected officials participating in these prayer vigils, offering prayers, etc., as it does over, say, kids in schools singing Christmas songs in their schools during their "holiday" plays. Seems to me it would be logically consistent for them, but maybe its just too sensitive an issue for now.

I think we have a lot of problems at the very roots of the society we have now created that we are going to have to take a hard look at if we are truly interested in minimizing the number of kooks that we produce that would even entertain the thought of going into a school and shooting a bunch of kids. The real question is, are we willing to do this? Or do we want to continue to focus on whether we should sell 10 round magazines or 30 round magazines, or black guns or guns with furniture, or no guns at all, and other panaceas that make us all feel like we are really doing something, but go nowhere to genuinely address the society that we have created, and the problems that go along with it.


Great rant. You reap what you sow.

Maybe if we stopped worrying about incarcerating people at 2x rate of the rest of the developed world, primarily due to drug laws, we could focus on institutionalizing crazies. Is it not infinitely harder to find a padded room for your bat sh!t crazy brother than it was fifty years ago?

But hey, schools have to respect everyone for their differences, even it that difference is being a sociopathic nutjob with homicidal tendencies.
 

phork

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Bogs what is adequately secured?
In my house with doors locked should be adequate enough.
Why punish someone because criminals gonna criminal?
Should I have to keep it disassembled?
DC had that law. Heller v DC shot it down as unconstitutional.
Philly tried to pass a law if you don't report a gun stolen in a certain time frame. It didn't take.

Adequately secured is in a gun safe, with trigger locks. And not in a home where there is mental illness, even if its just your kid.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Bogs what is adequately secured?
In my house with doors locked should be adequate enough.
Why punish someone because criminals gonna criminal?
Should I have to keep it disassembled?
DC had that law. Heller v DC shot it down as unconstitutional.
Philly tried to pass a law if you don't report a gun stolen in a certain time frame. It didn't take.

That depends. Laying loaded under a pillow, no. Gun lock, or safe yes, if you have kids that could get into it. As my six year old gets older, I will take mor secure means.

If I had a child with a suspected or diagnosed mental illness, I would store it at my local range/gun shop.

The rules: A) nobody other than owner or licensesed, franchised adults should have ready access to wepons and amunition; B) No owner should be responsible for a weapon after they report it stolen, and the gun owner may be ticketed at the disgression of the police if the stolen weapon was not adequately stored. That would follow "seat belt" laws or "door lock" rules for insurance payout.
 

BobD

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The majority of burglaries happen during daylight hours when nobody's home, so they'll probably steal your precious. If you experience a home invasion, unless you just happen to be sitting on the couch with it loaded, you're screwed.

If some real bad as$ comes knock'in you're in trouble either way.

When you own a gun, you, your family, friends and neighbors odds of being shot go up. The bad guys odds don't change much.

You're children are more likely to get hurt or killed by your gun than a bad guy.
 

irishpat183

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No, I believe some of you feel like the rest of the country has no right to want to make the country safer by taking simple steps to protect themselves from your firearms. These same "militia" type people that want to own assault rifles are doing a **** poor job from protecting the rest of society from their firearms.

If we weren't having mass killings in our movie theaters, schools and malls every couple months we wouldn't be having this conversation, now would we?

But the country isn't safer....and we already have strict gun laws.

And me owning a firearm is to protect MYSELF and my family. If I can help thwart a mass shooting, so be it. But me owning a firearm for myself to shoot, and protect is up to me.


Why do you insist on disarming citizens and trusting government with our safety (because they've done such a bang up job, right?)...


This isn't about guns. It's about our mindset towards violence. Blame your buddies in the media and hollywood. Blame parents for not raising their children correctly and teaching them right from wrong. But don't disarm the MILLIONS of law abiding citizens because of other peoples irresponsiblity.
 

irishpat183

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The majority of burglaries happen during daylight hours when nobody's home, so they'll probably steal your precious. If you experience a home invasion, unless you just happen to be sitting on the couch with it loaded, you're screwed.

If some real bad as$ comes knock'in you're in trouble either way.

When you own a gun, you, your family, friends and neighbors odds of being shot go up. The bad guys odds don't change much.

You're children are more likely to get hurt or killed by your gun than a bad guy.

Again.....So we just say screw it and tell people to face the fact that their gonna get killed if this happens and we won't allow you to defend yourself?

Typical. Empower the law breakers.
 

Kingbish01

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Again.....So we just say screw it and tell people to face the fact that their gonna get killed if this happens and we won't allow you to defend yourself?

Typical. Empower the law breakers.

You can have a gun to defend your family, but you don't need an AK with a 100 bullets.
 

irishpat183

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And I own 2 AR's...haven't killed anyone yet. Neither have my 2 buddies. Or my father. Or his brother....etc.


What do you tell these people? You gonna take away their guns because they may go on a rampage one day? (let's keep in mind that this is so f**king unlikely that it's asinine....even though you think it happens more frequently than handgun murders)


Again, we're all sheep to the media.
 

woolybug25

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But the country isn't safer....and we already have strict gun laws.

And me owning a firearm is to protect MYSELF and my family. If I can help thwart a mass shooting, so be it. But me owning a firearm for myself to shoot, and protect is up to me.


Why do you insist on disarming citizens and trusting government with our safety (because they've done such a bang up job, right?)...


This isn't about guns. It's about our mindset towards violence. Blame your buddies in the media and hollywood. Blame parents for not raising their children correctly and teaching them right from wrong. But don't disarm the MILLIONS of law abiding citizens because of other peoples irresponsiblity.

Do you actually read what I write or just go directly to putting words in my mouth? Where have I said that I want to take guns away from anybody? In fact, a couple pages back I detailed exactly what I think should be done. But who cares about that, right? You don't actually care about what people think, just your own ideology, regardless of how flawed it is.

Go back and actually read what I wrote before attacking me and tying me to certain ideologies.

You are a blowhard.
 

irishpat183

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You can have a gun to defend your family, but you don't need an AK with a 100 bullets.

Says who?

And when did it become ok for someone to tell me what "I don't need"?


Hell, there are far more dangerous things that we don't need. Is this what you want? Government deciding what we, as free citizens, do and don't need?
 

irishpat183

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Do you actually read what I write or just go directly to putting words in my mouth? Where have I said that I want to take guns away from anybody? In fact, a couple pages back I detailed exactly what I think should be done. But who cares about that, right? You don't actually care about what people think, just your own ideology, regardless of how flawed it is.

Go back and actually read what I wrote before attacking me and tying me to certain ideologies.

You are a blowhard.

Thank you.


I assumed you didn't agree with citizens owning AR's.
 

woolybug25

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Says who?

And when did it become ok for someone to tell me what "I don't need"?


Hell, there are far more dangerous things that we don't need. Is this what you want? Government deciding what we, as free citizens, do and don't need?

So you don't think the government has the right to put protections in place to protect people from things like drinking and driving? Drinking is a completely legal act that government has limited by disallowing people to do if behind the wheel. Is it ok for government to intervene with that? If so, does it stop at people getting killed in cars but you draw the line at protection for children getting murdered in our schools?
 

Kingbish01

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Says who?

And when did it become ok for someone to tell me what "I don't need"?


Hell, there are far more dangerous things that we don't need. Is this what you want? Government deciding what we, as free citizens, do and don't need?

When the last 5 mass shooters used these types of guns to kill innocent people/children.
 

irishpat183

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So you don't think the government has the right to put protections in place to protect people from things like drinking and driving? Drinking is a completely legal act that government has limited by disallowing people to do if behind the wheel. Is it ok for government to intervene with that? If so, does it stop at people getting killed in cars but you draw the line at protection for children getting murdered in our schools?


But government isn't taking about certain kinds of booze or cars, are they?
 

irishpat183

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When the last 5 mass shooters used these types of guns to kill innocent people/children.

Again, let this all subside and then make rational decisions.


Quit watcing 20/20. When you start legislating based on emotion, you make mistakes.


Last 5 mass shooters...compared millions and millions that follow the rules that own those very same guns?

I understand the severity of the issue, and it's horrible tragedy, but let's take a step back for a minute..
 

phgreek

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So based on my limitied knowledge of the world I'm of the opinion that if you need an assault rifle for "home defense" you are involved in some serious business and might want to rethink what you're doing. Seriously, if a group of thugs is showing up at your place with those types of guns you either a. robbed someone you should not have b. sold someone something you should not have c. are holding way too much of something you shouldn't be. If you want to ward off a crackhead burglar a shot gun is all you really need. If you need to fire one of those more than a couple times you're a crappy shot and you might want to rethink gun ownership completely.

...really funny, and has some truth to it.

I've got no use for an assault rifle...don't really care if someone else has one....not against them...I just have a predisposition for my stuff to have the most utility...most assault rifles are .223. As a hunting rifle, you might get away with shooting a whitetail deer...so to me its not real useful.
 

woolybug25

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But government isn't taking about certain kinds of booze or cars, are they?

Actually they do. Go try to buy real Ouzo in the US or Everclear in some states.

Furthermore, you make this assumption that the changes that will happen take away guns from people. That hasn't been suggested. What has been suggested is HOW we manage firearms and specifically Assault Rifles. But for the sake of argument, if we did put an assault rifle ban in place (which we had for many years, btw), how is that different than me not being able to purchase real Ouzo or limits on the alcohol content manufactures are allowed to produce at?

The reality is that almost all dangerous items available for the public are open to scrutiny and discussion about how to properly manage them. While everyone has a right to bare arms in this country, the masses have the right to be protected from them as well.
 

irishpat183

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There is a blood alcohol limit to get behind the wheel of a car. Why can't there be a limit to how many rounds go in a clip?

What's the limit?

How many bullets should be allowed in a clip so I can limit the number of people I kill? 2? 10? 15??

What's the number that says "home defense" compared to "mass murderer"??
 

NYMIKE6

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There is a blood alcohol limit to get behind the wheel of a car. Why can't there be a limit to how many rounds go in a clip?

200,000,000 guns in U.S. about 13,000 deaths from guns that are from Justifiable Homicide, Homicide or Accidental 30,000 deaths overall 17,000 resulting in suicide

130,000,000 people consume Alcohol, but there is about 25,000 DUI related deaths a year and a over 100,000 Alcohol related deaths overall...

So what's the question again? Guns are way safer then Alcohol... very poor argument...
 
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irishpat183

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Actually they do. Go try to buy real Ouzo in the US or Everclear in some states.

Furthermore, you make this assumption that the changes that will happen take away guns from people. That hasn't been suggested. What has been suggested is HOW we manage firearms and specifically Assault Rifles. But for the sake of argument, if we did put an assault rifle ban in place (which we had for many years, btw), how is that different than me not being able to purchase real Ouzo?

The reality is that almost all dangerous items available for the public are open to scrutiny and discussion about how to properly manage them. While everyone has a right to bare arms in this country, the masses have the right to be protected from them as well.

The masses can protect themselves by arming themselves, no? What some on the anti-gun train are suggesting, is that we disarm everyone....but that just isnt' realistic.

Again, I think the bigger issue is educaiton and the fiber of our uber-violent society. We focus too much on guns/cars/booze/drugs.....when it's the damn people that have to actually use these items to do harm.
 

irishpat183

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200,000,000 guns in U.S. about 13,000 deaths from guns that are from Justifiable Homicide, Homicide or Accidental

130,000,000 people consume Alcohol, but there is about 25,000 DUI related deaths a year and a over 100,000 Alcohol related deaths overall...

So what's the question again? Guns are way safer then Alcohol... very poor argument...

I'm betting half of those are in the accidental category...
 

woolybug25

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The masses can protect themselves by arming themselves, no? What some on the anti-gun train are suggesting, is that we disarm everyone....but that just isnt' realistic.

Again, I think the bigger issue is educaiton and the fiber of our uber-violent society. We focus too much on guns/cars/booze/drugs.....when it's the damn people that have to actually use these items to do harm.

You keep saying this, but no one is inferring it but you. It is the same scare-tactic type rhetoric that NRA types spew to dillute the debate. No one is suggesting that we take away all guns and crap on the second amendment. But the majority of Americans believe that we are not managing that right correctly and need to work on how to fix the problem of escalating violence with assault guns.
 

NYMIKE6

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The Federal assault weapons ban was from 1994-2004, that really didn't work out so well... Didn't the D.C. Sniper shoot 13 with an AR-15?
 

woolybug25

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Bogs what is adequately secured?
In my house with doors locked should be adequate enough.
Why punish someone because criminals gonna criminal?
Should I have to keep it disassembled?
DC had that law. Heller v DC shot it down as unconstitutional.
Philly tried to pass a law if you don't report a gun stolen in a certain time frame. It didn't take.

Heller v DC was shot down because of the statute stating it was unlawful to not have them locked, which isn't being suggested. What is being suggested is that if the firearm is used in a crime, then the person owning it is liable because they didn't protect the public from their dangerous piece of equipment. If you want to keep your guns unlocked, then go ahead. But remember that it is used in a crime, then you are personally liable for how your firearm is used. Regardless of who is pulling the trigger.

You are talking about two different things.
 

irishpat183

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You keep saying this, but no one is inferring it but you. It is the same scare-tactic type rhetoric that NRA types spew to dillute the debate. No one is suggesting that we take away all guns and crap on the second amendment. But the majority of Americans believe that we are not managing that right correctly and need to work on how to fix the problem of escalating violence with assault guns.

Actually, it's gone down since 2000......

It's just we jump all in when we hear these terrible tragedies and treat them like their the norm, when that's just not true. At all.

Far more people operate their firearms responsibly, than those that dont.

So, like the ACA, we're legislating on emotion and trying to protect a small minority of our population at the expense of the majority.
 
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