Opinions/Discussions on Guns

chicago51

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1) Timothy McVeigh conducted his evil with fertilizer.

2) Will "getting rid of guns" work as well as making drugs illegal?

3) Show me a country that has more justice and freedom than we do where the only people who have guns is the government/ military

4) Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country and one of the highest murder rates (per capita)

Gang violence and what happen in Newtown are somewhat different issues. Although all areas of gun violence deserve attention.

Glad you brought up Chicago as it shows an important part cause of violence in general and thats socio-economic equality. There is a linear relationship between economic equality and violence in general. If policies were adapted to improve economic equality then you would see a big drop in gun violence; and no tax breaks on the rich does not create jobs there are studies that prove that but thats an arguement for another day.

Its not like there is a wall around Chicago and go outside the city or even the state of Illinios and get a gun. BUT yes banning weapons alone does not solve the problem.

An aside: Chicago was getting much better before Rahm Emanuel made a stupide mistake hired a new chief of police when he took over. He got rid of guy that was doing well but the cops didn't like him because he was an outsider and wasn't "a chicago guy". If we ever get a better chief of police things would improve.
 

BobD

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We need to create jobs....a police officer or more at every school sounds good to me.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Dia daoibh,

Some good points, and some not so good.

Let's talk about the lie: 90% of what you hear in initial reports on the media is a lie. Hero stories; I remember when that poor little blond girl from West Va was freed after a terrible time in captivity, my father turned to me as we watched it and said, "What a bunch of bullshiiit. An officer with his head up his a$$ gets his troops lost, they panic, get in an accident. That is all it was. They're covering their own incompetence with this act of heroic bravery!" And he was right. Hero stories are mostly bull shiit. Every well adjusted person is afraid to die and most people don't have time to be heroes, once the gunfire starts.

The next one that really riles me is, "Oh, he seemed so normal!" More bullshiit. What someone is really saying is, "I don't want to be held accountable for not doing something about this obviously demented person." So the first thing to do if you want to stop children from being slaughtered is cut out the bullshiiting:

Bushmaster, the manufacturer of Adam's assault rifle, is owned by Freedom Arms, as is Remington and a few other companies. Freedom Arms is owned by the Cerberus Group. The Cerberus Group is owned by the people that own the US. Two former presidents and a former Vice President have involvement. The rest is a who's who of those lobbying against higher tax rates on the wealthy. So these companies need to produce their numbers, because if they aren't profitable, they need to go.
Here is how it works: Get guns in criminal's hands, get guns in unstable people's hands, fill criminal situations with high powered guns. Crimes will be committed. People will be arrested jailed and/or executed. Guns will be confiscated. After legal disposition guns will be destroyed. Produce more guns. The amoral production of a harmful product is the same as liquor production, cigarettes, or drugs.

Want to see our resolve for really dealing with issues? What happened when MADD turned up the heat on drunk driving. THEY STAYED HOME AND THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE RATE SOARED. Today, more pregnant women are murdered by their significant others or husbands, than any other source; and the leading cause of death among adult pregnant women is murder. More than all the cancer and heart related deaths and all causes of pregnancy put together. So how is that for some truth?

Next mental illness. This thread spent more time dealing with demented religious zealots and "out guessing one's own higher power (GOD)" than dealing with the real problem. Since most news reports are bull, because HIPPA is going to preclude us from knowing what was actually so with Adam, even if his only diagnosis really was Aspergers, that still fits within the context of mental illness. Aspergers is a spectral disorder, range of symptoms, range of causes, sometimes really something else entirely in an atypical presentation, so it gets lumped in with this general group. If you think diagnosis is cut and dried, go back to page two, and read that article about the woman who has the mentally ill son, (her own words).

Now, we all want to believe we have control over our lives, but the simple matter is we don't. I would bet one of the best trained shooters on this board is Grahambo. When we talked about it last summer, he didn't talk about being able to neutralize that shooter without collateral damage. And he does this for a living. It ain't the movies. The movies are commercials to get us to buy in or buy more . . .

The fact of the matter is about ninety-five percent of the population would fail miserably. (Grahambo would succeed as best as possible.) A small percentage of people would fail because they just couldn't take a human life when it came down to it. Some would fail because the situation was to fast for them. Others because adrenaline would have too much of an affect. That target bulls eye that you can hit 20 out of 20 times becomes a lot smaller with a heartbeat, and when it is moving and shooting back. It is amazing how many people are incapacitated when violent acts are aimed at them.

So, what is the point. Stop arguing. Stop bullshiitting. Tell the truth. Show some resolve. Stand up. Deal with the problem where it lives. Do the small practical things. And see mental illness for what it is; it is not "evil" it is however potentially homicidal, and it is generally treatable. Oh, yeah, and admit that abandoning mental health facilities as the Regan administration did for the cost savings was a mistake. Find a safe, humane place for those that will kill your children if given the chance.

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Bogs.
 
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woolybug25

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4) Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country and one of the highest murder rates (per capita)

If anything, this is actually a good validation that gun regulation needs to happen at a national level, not state/city. Regardless of how harsh Chicago makes their gun laws, it will never matter if people can simply drive 15 minutes away into Wisconson or Indiana and buy anything they want.
 

BobD

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I don't think that fourth paragraph is correct Boggs.
 

chicago51

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Dia daoibh,

Some good points, and some not so good.

Let's talk about the lie: 90% of what you hear in initial reports on the media is a lie. Hero stories; I remember when that poor little blond girl from West Va was freed after a terrible time in captivity, my father turned to me as we watched it and said, "What a bunch of bullshiiit. An officer with his head up his a$$ gets his troops lost, they panic, get in an accident. That is all it was. They're covering their own incompetence with this act of heroic bravery!" And he was right. Hero stories are mostly bull shiit. Every well adjusted person is afraid to die and most people don't have time to be heroes, once the gunfire starts.

The next one that really riles me is, "Oh, he seemed so normal!" More bullshiit. What someone is really saying is, "I don't want to be held accountable for not doing something about this obviously demented person." So the first thing to do if you want to stop children from being slaughtered is cut out the bullshiiting:

Bushmaster, the manufacturer of Adam's assault rifle, is owned by Freedom Arms, as is Remington and a few other companies. Freedom Arms is owned by the Cerberus Group. The Cerberus Group is owned by the people that own the US. Two former presidents and a former Vice President have involvement. The rest is a who's who of those lobbying against higher tax rates on the wealthy. So these companies need to produce their numbers, because if they aren't profitable, they need to go.
Here is how it works: Get guns in criminal's hands, get guns in unstable people's hands, fill criminal situations with high powered guns. Crimes will be committed. People will be arrested jailed and/or executed. Guns will be confiscated. After legal disposition guns will be destroyed. Produce more guns. The amoral production of a harmful product is the same as liquor production, cigarettes, or drugs.

Want to see our resolve for really dealing with issues? What happened when MADD turned up the heat on drunk driving. THEY STAYED HOME AND THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE RATE SOARED. Today, more women are murdered by their significant others or husbands, than any other source; and the leading cause of death among adult women is murder. More than all the cancer and heart related deaths put together. So how is that for some truth?

Next mental illness. This thread spent more time dealing with demented religious zealots and "out guessing one's own higher power (GOD)" than dealing with the real problem. Since most news reports are bull, because HIPPA is going to preclude us from knowing what was actually so with Adam, even if his only diagnosis really was Aspergers, that still fits within the context of mental illness. Aspergers is a spectral disorder, range of symptoms, range of causes, sometimes really something else entirely in an atypical presentation, so it gets lumped in with this general group. If you think diagnosis is cut and dried, go back to page two, and read that article about the woman who has the mentally ill son, (her own words).

Now, we all want to believe we have control over our lives, but the simple matter is we don't. I would bet one of the best trained shooters on this board is Grahambo. When we talked about it last summer, he didn't talk about being able to neutralize that shooter without collateral damage. And he does this for a living. It ain't the movies. The movies are commercials to buy . . .

The fact of the matter is about ninety-five percent of the population would fail miserably. (Grahambo would succeed as best as possible.) A small percentage of people would fail because they just couldn't take a human life when it came down to it. Some would fail because the situation was to fast for them. Others because adrenaline would have too much of an affect. That target bulls eye that you can hit 20 out of 20 times becomes a lot smaller with a heartbeat, and when it is moving and shooting back. It is amazing how many people are incapacitated when violent acts are aimed at them.

So, what is the point. Stop arguing. Stop bullshiitting. Tell the truth. Show some resolve. Stand up. Deal with the problem where it lives. Do the small practical things. And see mental illness for what it is; it is not "evil" it is however potentially homicidal, and it is generally treatable. Oh, yeah, and admit that abandoning mental health facilities as the Regan administration did for the cost savings was a mistake. Find a safe, humane place for those that will kill your children if given the chance.

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Bogs.

Yes Regan took all the money out of our mental health and spent that money weapons ironically.

We need campaign reform so these corporations and interest groups can not give huge somes of money to candidates. Like the NRA. If politicians didn't have to work please those who gave them the most money a lot more would get done.

I'm not saying do away with 2nd amendment by any means. There can be reasonable checks and restrictions. Yes it will slow down the process for normal law abiding citizens wanting to own a gun for protection and/or hunting purposes. Sometimes you have to sacrifice for the greater good.

Another thing on Regan. If Regan had kept the money in the alternate fuel programs we would solved oil crisis by now. But I digress.
 

chicago51

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My question to gun owners is say you had to wait twice maybe even 3 times as long to get a gun but it significantly helped prevent (I say help prevent as stopping it 100% is not plausible) things like what happen in Newtown from happening would you do it?
 

Irish Houstonian

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Dia daoibh,

Let's talk about the lie: 90% of what you hear in initial reports on the media is a lie. Hero stories...Hero stories are mostly bull shiit. Every well adjusted person is afraid to die and most people don't have time to be heroes, once the gunfire starts...

?...Victoria Soto's body is riddled with bullets, and her own students are all saying the same story -- that she willfully shielded them. Not to mention the principal and administrators who died trying to tackle somebody in the hallway carrying a rifle.

So what exactly are you talking about?
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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?...Victoria Soto's body is riddled with bullets, and her own students are all saying the same story -- that she willfully shielded them. Not to mention the principal and administrators who died trying to tackle somebody in the hallway carrying a rifle.

So what exactly are you talking about?

90% of what you hear in initial reports on the media
 

cody1smith

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you dont NEED cigarettes, sports cars and homes that require 30 times as much energy to heat and cool as normal homes. but we all want them. Where do you draw the line
 

cody1smith

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I no that this instance the shooter used hand guns not assault weapons. BUT there is no reason not ban assault weapons. You don't need an assault weapon for hunting or for self defense.
you dont NEED cigarettes, sports cars and homes that require 30 times as much energy to heat and cool as normal homes. but we all want them. Where do you draw the line
 

chicago51

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you dont NEED cigarettes, sports cars and homes that require 30 times as much energy to heat and cool as normal homes. but we all want them. Where do you draw the line

You draw the line when it comes to safety.
 

chicago51

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For those that are against gun restrictions what do you suggest is the solution to fix things? I respect your opinion, honestly I do. What do suggest we do though to stop this?

Or do we do nothing?

Are events like what happen in Newtown routine and we should just accept them as an unfortunate but inventible part of society?

No banning assault weapons, having tougher restrictions/checks won't solve it all but if it prevents just one event like this from happening in the future isn't worth it?

Na lets do nothing everyone for themselves
 

cody1smith

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My question to gun owners is say you had to wait twice maybe even 3 times as long to get a gun but it significantly helped prevent (I say help prevent as stopping it 100% is not plausible) things like what happen in Newtown from happening would you do it?
Un fair question but yes if it would slow down murders and shootings by a lot, i would be all for it. But it wont because the people that buy guns over the counter are not going and killing mass amounts of people. the majority of the shootings are inner city people fighting themselves and like the fighting in the middle east nothing we do will make it better.


Question for you.
would you pay 80 percent of your paycheck rather than 30 if it significantly cut back on children starving and freezing in the US?
 

Irish Houstonian

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90% of what you hear in initial reports on the media

So what? If you're calling out a common belief for being wrong, that's fine, but you should back it up with your own evidence because you're basically disagreeing with every eye-witness they've interviewed and every piece of evidence that's been presented.

And by the way, if you died sheilding children from a hail of gun-fire, and some ******* was on the internet telling everyone that it didn't happen, because of "the media", you'd be pretty pissed off.
 

cody1smith

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For those that are against gun restrictions what do you suggest is the solution to fix things? I respect your opinion, honestly I do. What do suggest we do though to stop this?

Or do we do nothing?

Are events like what happen in Newtown routine and we should just accept them as an unfortunate but inventible part of society?

No banning assault weapons, having tougher restrictions/checks won't solve it all but if it prevents just one event like this from happening in the future isn't worth it?

Na lets do nothing everyone for themselves
Same can be said for banning cigarettes, alcohol, airplanes, fast food and countless other things. If you look hard enough and find the right people all of these things have taken loved ones from family's the same. There is a hospital in every major city full of kids dieing from things that could MAYBE be prevented if we all wanted to live like the amish.


If we ban football for all and it saves one 18 year old kids life was it worth it???
 

chicago51

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Un fair question but yes if it would slow down murders and shootings by a lot, i would be all for it. But it wont because the people that buy guns over the counter are not going and killing mass amounts of people. the majority of the shootings are inner city people fighting themselves and like the fighting in the middle east nothing we do will make it better.


Question for you.
would you pay 80 percent of your paycheck rather than 30 if it significantly cut back on
children starving and freezing in the US?

Seeing as how I am only working part time with still trying finish up physical therapy school I would say no to 80% as then I would be starving and freezing. If I was a multimillionare I would say heck yea. After the first couple millions I am not sure what the heck I would do with the rest. Back in 1950s under Eisenhower the upper tax rate was 91% and the US economy was awesome.
 

cody1smith

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Seeing as how I am only working part time with still trying finish up physical therapy school I would say no to 80% as then I would be starving and freezing. If I was a multimillionare I would say heck yea. After the first couple millions I am not sure what the heck I would do with the rest. Back in 1950s under Eisenhower the upper tax rate was 91% and the US economy was awesome.
1950's were awesome? or people lived like they were poor and was not loosing there houses.
 

NankerPhelge

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Sorry to butt in on this conversation. I think that the problem that we are all trying to solve is that of crazy (dare I say "evil"?) people killing other people. I would think that, if we are truly concerned about solving that problem rather than simply grinding axes about what ever side we stand on any particular issue, we would first want to determine whether any action we support would have any measurable effect on solving the problem. For example, for those who think banning or restricting certain types of guns would help solve the problem--is there any emperical evidence to support that position? We have a track record to look at, both at the state level with the thousands of "gun control" laws that already exist and, more to the point, at the federal level. For the statistical gurus out there, is there any evidence at all that the previous ban on "assault weapons" had any measurablle effect on crime committed with guns? Shouldn't we care about whether whatever actions we take or support are likely to have an effect on actually solving the problem at hand, based on all available evidence, before we waste our time and energy on projects that may have no effect at all on the problem we are trying to solve? I think that there are a number of areas that would be worthy of exploration if we are truly concerned about solving the instant problem, and not just feeling good because we are "doing something," whether or not what we are doing is going to have any effect on the problem.

For example, I heard on the news today that the shooter's parents were divorced. In the early '70's, most, if not all, states revamped their divorce statutes and adopted "no-fault" divorce. The effect on society of treating marriage as nothing more than a simple contract (really, not even as strong as a simple contract--if you breach a contract to, say, build a house, there will typically be some consequences, but if you breach the marriage contract, oh well, it just didn't work out and its nobody's fault) has been huge. About 50% of marriages, many involving children, now end in divorce. There is a raft of empirical evidence of the detrimental effect this has had on our society on numerous levels, and particularly on the children involved, especially when custody is at issue. Should we maybe take a hard look at how we treat the institution of marriage and the nuclear family and determine whether the way we currently treat that institution is contributing to creating the defective morons who go out and commit these heinous acts? On a related issue, does anybody else think that the rising number (almost 50% now in the "white" community, significantly higher among "people of color") of children born out of wedlock might contribute in some measure to the problem we are dealing with? I was in court this morning dealing with a support case where a mother had 6 kids by 6 different fathers. The sad thing is, this is not all that unusual. Any thoughts about the chances that these kids are going to be the good, stable, people we would like to have in our society, who would never think of just going out and slaughtering a bunch of people? I am just asking whether anybody else thinks that an exploration of these issues, and dealing with them, might be more productive in actually solving the current problem we are facing than screaming "we need more gun control laws!" Harder, I am sure, but maybe more effective.

And, while I am at it, where is the ACLU on this? They, and other organizations of like ilk, have done everything that they can to eradicate any mention of God or religion or religious values from the public square, most of the time on the theory that any such thing constitutes an "unconstitutional government endorsement of religion." You all know what I am talking about--no nativity scenes in public places, Ten Commandments monuments and plaques forcibly removed from city halls and schools throughout the country, lawsuits to remove the words "under God" from the pledge of allegience, and on and on ad infinitum. In the city where I practice, they had to take down a STAR, yes a simple star, from the courthouse, and there is no longer any Christmas tree in the hallway anymore--"too religious." Again, I ask where the ACLU is on this recent tragedy. I see govenment officials, right up to the President himself, attending prayer vigils in government buildings to pray for the victims and their families. Doesn't help under the constitution that many times these are labeled "non-denominational," the Supreme Court has ruled many times that endorsement of any religion over non-religion is as unconstitional as an endorsement of one religion over the other. Just wonder why the ACLU is not making as huge of a hue and cry over our elected officials participating in these prayer vigils, offering prayers, etc., as it does over, say, kids in schools singing Christmas songs in their schools during their "holiday" plays. Seems to me it would be logically consistent for them, but maybe its just too sensitive an issue for now.

I think we have a lot of problems at the very roots of the society we have now created that we are going to have to take a hard look at if we are truly interested in minimizing the number of kooks that we produce that would even entertain the thought of going into a school and shooting a bunch of kids. The real question is, are we willing to do this? Or do we want to continue to focus on whether we should sell 10 round magazines or 30 round magazines, or black guns or guns with furniture, or no guns at all, and other panaceas that make us all feel like we are really doing something, but go nowhere to genuinely address the society that we have created, and the problems that go along with it.
 
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ND NYC

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/o...to-stop-this.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0
Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can’t we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?

The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not that we have lunatics or criminals — all countries have them — but that we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.

Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.

So let’s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn’t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage. American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips — but lawmakers don’t have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won’t stand up to the N.R.A.?
As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting, “It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun.”

Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can’t we be equally adult about regulating guns?

And don’t say that it won’t make a difference because crazies will always be able to get a gun. We’re not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually. Likewise, don’t bother with the argument that if more people carried guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it’s hard to see what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting. The tragedy isn’t one school shooting, it’s the unceasing toll across our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can’t kill as many people without reloading.

We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with private sales.
Let’s make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.

“We’ve endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,” President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He’s right, but the solution isn’t just to mourn the victims — it’s to change our policies. Let’s see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.

Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation’s conservative prime minister to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The “national firearms agreement,” as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.

The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely to be used in mass shootings.

In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings — but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.

Or we can look north to Canada. It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching for them.

For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.”

Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America’s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.

Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don’t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.
 
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chicago51

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1950's were awesome? or people lived like they were poor and was not loosing there houses.

Okay awesome may not be the best to describe it. Better than today. Fact income gap between the top and the bottom is higher than ever.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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If anything, this is actually a good validation that gun regulation needs to happen at a national level, not state/city. Regardless of how harsh Chicago makes their gun laws, it will never matter if people can simply drive 15 minutes away into Wisconson or Indiana and buy anything they want.

Nope. You missed the point. If people want to kill, they're going to kill. Banning guns, fertilizer, knives, etc. will not stop people if they are that crazy. 9/11 hijackers had friggin box cutters.

You'd also have to shred the Constitution to do what you say, and neither you or the president have the authority to do so.

It's disgusting that this happened but to claim that gun regulation is the answer is a knee jerk/ emotional reaction that will not work. The other 3 points I noted earlier reiterate this.

One more note: you have a house and a family, and a guy with a weapon breaks in at 2 a.m. Do you want to be able to protect yourself or are you just gonna hope and pray police get there in time?
 

chicago51

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/o...to-stop-this.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0
Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can’t we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?

The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not that we have lunatics or criminals — all countries have them — but that we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.

Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.

So let’s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn’t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage.

American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips — but lawmakers don’t have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won’t stand up to the N.R.A.?

As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting, “It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun.”

Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can’t we be equally adult about regulating guns?

And don’t say that it won’t make a difference because crazies will always be able to get a gun. We’re not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.

Likewise, don’t bother with the argument that if more people carried guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it’s hard to see what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting.

The tragedy isn’t one school shooting, it’s the unceasing toll across our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can’t kill as many people without reloading.

We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with private sales. Let’s make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.

“We’ve endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,” President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He’s right, but the solution isn’t just to mourn the victims — it’s to change our policies. Let’s see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.

Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation’s conservative prime minister to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The “national firearms agreement,” as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.

The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely to be used in mass shootings.

In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings — but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.

Or we can look north to Canada. It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching for them.

For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.”

Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America’s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.

Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don’t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.

Well put
 

chicago51

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Nope. You missed the point. If people want to kill, they're going to kill. Banning guns, fertilizer, knives, etc. will not stop people if they are that crazy. 9/11 hijackers had friggin box cutters.

You'd also have to shred the Constitution to do what you say, and neither you or the president have the authority to do so.

It's disgusting that this happened but to claim that gun regulation is the answer is a knee jerk/ emotional reaction that will not work. The other 3 points I noted earlier reiterate this.

One more note: you have a house and a family, and a guy with a weapon breaks in at 2 a.m. Do you want to be able to protect yourself or are you just gonna hope and pray police get there in time?

What is the answer to this problem then? You say gun regulation is not. Okay I disagree but thats okay. Would like to know what an alternative I idea to improve things may be.

The only thing I can't accept at this point is doing nothing. I would rather try to do something and fail misserably than to not do anything.
 

woolybug25

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Nope. You missed the point. If people want to kill, they're going to kill. Banning guns, fertilizer, knives, etc. will not stop people if they are that crazy. 9/11 hijackers had friggin box cutters.

No, you missed the point. You said that Chicago is proof that gun regulations don't work but failed to address the fact that one only needs to drive across the border to get a gun. So your argument didn't make logical sense. The point you are making now is a completely different topic.

You'd also have to shred the Constitution to do what you say, and neither you or the president have the authority to do so.

Actually, the President absolutely has the authority to bring up gun legislation, no where in the consititution does it say that we cant regulate firearms. No where.


It's disgusting that this happened but to claim that gun regulation is the answer is a knee jerk/ emotional reaction that will not work. The other 3 points I noted earlier reiterate this.


You are acting like this is an isolated incident, it's not. This is happening at an alarming pace and seems to be escalating. Putting our heads in the sand and acting like there isn't anything going on isn't going to fix anything. If your sink is leaking in your house, do you let it pour all over the floor or do you fix it?

One more note: you have a house and a family, and a guy with a weapon breaks in at 2 a.m. Do you want to be able to protect yourself or are you just gonna hope and pray police get there in time?

No one is saying you shouldn't be able to have personal protection firearms. Do you need an AR15 to protect yourself from home invasion? This is the same NRA bullcrap that people want to protray about gun regulations. That the "big bad government" is going to come take your guns away. No one is suggesting that. The only thing being suggested is that our government put the same amount of protections they put into place for automobiles, tobacco and liquor on the firearms that have been killing our children at an alarming pace.

Or we can do what you suggest.... which is absolutely nothing.
 

chicago51

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Lets not do anything maybe the problem will just fix itself over time.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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So what? If you're calling out a common belief for being wrong, that's fine, but you should back it up with your own evidence because you're basically disagreeing with every eye-witness they've interviewed and every piece of evidence that's been presented.

And by the way, if you died sheilding children from a hail of gun-fire, and some ******* was on the internet telling everyone that it didn't happen, because of "the media", you'd be pretty pissed off.

We have explored this whole kind of thing in the past, you and I. I do not dance when someone is twisting my words. No matter what you make up!

The fact of the matter is, most of what was reported about the shooter was bull shiit. From his mother being a teacher at the school to his only condition being Aspergers. You do the work. But about 90 % of what was reported was bull shiit. I never once brought up a victim in this tragedy. I commented on stories about people fighting back in past instances like the bull shiit promoted about Jessica Lynch from the Iraq war. The point about that is you cannot stop these well planned massacres as they occur outside of a John Wayne movie; you can only do your best to prevent them.

Not it turns out that this poor young man, Adam, probably suffered from congenital analgesia. If that is true he should have been afforded serious mental and medical support. People like this do not grow on trees. People like this are markedly different. People like this are markedly different psychologically and physiologically than most of us. People like this can be dangerous if left unchecked in a community. Among the most dangerous, the don't feel physical pain, or do not have the emotional ability to express it, as they develop, they often lack basic human empathy, as well as exhibit a number of mental illnesses or emotional or behavioral disturbances.

So, I will not let you minimize this conversation by personally attacking my words. That does show your cunningness, but a specific cowardice. A lack of willingness at dealing with the real problem.
 
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