Manziel's Heisman Campaign

[MNIrishman]

This is my first thread here, driven by insomnia and obsession. I've decided Manti needs to win the Heisman, so with that decision in mind, I've decided to try to identify some statistics to justify myself. Let's begin with an analysis of Texas A&M's schedule. Thus far, they have played:

1. Florida
2. Southern Methodist
3. South Carolina State
4. Arkansas
5. Ole Miss
6. Louisiana Tech
7. LSU
8. Auburn
9. Mississippi State
10. Alabama
11. Sam Houston State

That looks like a reasonable schedule at first glance. However, let's discount teams that are tire fires (Auburn, Arkansas). Take out FCS foes (South Carolina State, SHSU), and non-BCS conference teams (SMU, Lousiana Tech). I would also, subject to dispute, exclude Mississippi State University, which has no wins over a team with anything even remotely close to a winning record (Middle Tennessee excepted. Ha.). That leaves Johnny Football with three games against reasonable competition. These games are:

1. Florida
2. LSU
3. Alabama

I think I could make a reasonable argument that Florida or LSU aren't superpowers, but it's unnecessary here. My point isn't to just select the toughest competition that A&M has played, but rather to simply select reasonable competition. If they had played anyone even as tough as a 6-win Golden Gopher squad, I would include that victory. Now, given just these three games, let's look at Johnny's aggregated statistics.

Record: 1-2

Passing
TD: 2
TO: 3
Yards: 702
Averages (respectively, per game): .67, 1, 234

Rushing
TD: 1
TO: ? (I'm not sure where to find a statistic describing fumbles, if there are any)
Yards: 179
Averages (respectively, per game): .33, ?, 60

While his overall statistics are absolutely fantastic through all of TAMU's games, I think the greatest exemplar of a Heisman-quality player is consistency in the tougher games on the schedule. Johnny Football in no way demonstrates this statistically.

I think everyone should be impressed with this guy. Johnny Manziel is an incredible football player and a great athlete. I would be shocked if he does not win the Heisman at some point in his career. However, this season does not bear out his name being so highly regarded in the competition.

I will not attempt to summarize Manti's statistics, as I believe that Manti's contribution to this season transcends quantification. I recognize this is hypocritical, that I am judging one player on statistics and another qualitatively. However, my purpose here is not to compare Manziel to Manti (the differences between them preclude this, in my opinion). I am, however, happy to do the same comparison for another quarterback.

For the three toughest games on this quarterback's schedule:

Record: 0-3

Passing
TD: 8
TO: 6
Yards: 1039
Averages: 2.67, 2, 346.333

Rushing
Turrible

These are Matt Barkley's statistics. As can be seen, these are in many ways (such as TD to TO ratio) much stronger than those of Manziel against what I would argue are comparable opponents (in this case, I selected Stanford, Oregon, and UCLA). I'm sure one could examine several other quarterbacks using the criteria I used to examine Manziel and find better numbers, so I don't understand his Heisman hype. He's a great player, to be sure, but not the GREATEST player.

Oh and full disclosure: I hate the SEC with the burning fury of a thousand suns. I think General Sherman had the right idea, that if your state's obesity rate exceeds your state's literacy rate, you don't get to be a state anymore, and that the SEC is an affront to what college athletics are supposed to represent. I hate the SEC more than Michigan and USC combined (and that's with my Columbus origins). Thus, I hope you will take my argument with a grain of salt and understand that I am utterly biased beyond reason.

 

[MNIrishman]

More than 170 views and no response? tl;dr? I was kind of hoping for someone to agree with or debate the methodology I used (BGIF, WhiskeyJack, you listening?). I could have put this in Manti's thread, but the point wasn't to compare to Manti, it was to try to---as objectively as possible------ disagree with Manziel's legitimate Heisman candidacy.

 

[PraetorianND]

I think General Sherman had the right idea, that if your state's obesity rate exceeds your state's literacy rate, you don't get to be a state anymore, and that the SEC is an affront to what college athletics are supposed to represent. I hate the SEC more than Michigan and USC combined (and that's with my Columbus origins).

I liked your analysis and I completely agree with you that JM hasn't earned the "greatest player" moniker and award that goes along with it. He had one great moment on a national stage, that's about it.

The part quoted above was great.

 

[AGNDfan]

Rebuttal

Rebuttal

I can certainly see where you're coming from, but this forum appears to be a bit of an echo chamber (which admittedly is fun!). So here is a counter argument to you as well as the argument why Te'o shouldn't be the front runner.

First I would dispute that LA Tech isn't a decent win, it was over a Top 25 team at the time and they only have 2 losses, both to teams currently ranked in the top 25. So certainly I think that that game, a road game too, matches up well with numerous games on the ND schedule.

Also was Mississippi State overrated and or ranked? Yes. But I doubt anyone here claims that they wouldn't match up well with a number of teams in the Big 10 that yall played and it was again a game on the road. But again up for dispute, legitimately so.

So let's look at those three games against the No 2, 3 and 5 defenses in the country. And remember the Florida game is the first game of his college career under a new system he didn't practice in when he was leading a scout team his red shirt year. Oh and wasn't named starter until fall practice.

Total yardage: 881, 3 TDs, 3 TOs 1-2 record.

Focusing on record here is certainly valid, however looking at recent history not something that cannot be overcome.

He had an average, controlled but unremarkable game against Florida. A few highlights, especially in the first half. Lost partly because a lack of offense in the first game but also a massive failure by the starting running back that led to his benching through most of the year (C. Michael).

The LSU game he had 3 TO's. One bounced off a receivers chest and another was from a receiver making the wrong cut on a timing route. He still exceeded the average yardage given up by LSU to opposing quarterbacks by 40%. And he led a scoring drive at the end to cut the defecit and give A&M a chance to win. Arguably if A&M's kicked was decent, A&M wins this game and might be plaing Georgia for a shot at you Golden Domers in January.

Alabama. Heisma moment with numerous highlights (but really go watch the highlight videos on YouTube and tell me he isn't worth at least a second place vote for Heisman). Bama as giving up 229 yards per game. And 9 points. Manziel staked A&M to an early lead made big plays and dominated the game. True he is at a position where he can dominate a game in a way that Te'o can't. But this was eisman worthy againt a very good defense. No TO's. 2 TDs. Started the game 21/22 passing and blew up the #1 team in the country on the road. This was a worthy moment, but Johnny has had many similiar highlights all season.

So then there are the records:5th 3000 yard passer 1000 yard rusher in FBS history and 1st Freshman.
Broke Archie Mannings single game total offense record... twice.
Sat out 9 quarters of action due to blow outs.
Will pass (barring injury, act of God) Cam Newton's single season total offense record against Mizzou in 2 fewer games and sitting out all that time.
First player to throw for 300 yards and rush for 100 in 3 games in a career.
Leading freshman QB rusher in FBS history.
Second freshman QB to run for 1000 and throw for 2000.
Broke freshman QB total offense record.
Not to mention weekly and school records broken.

That's a hell of a season. The numbers are certainly worthy of votes.

Finally you talk about Te'o's intangibles and story. Johnny Football certainly has those as well. Not as an emotionally compelling story, granted and appriciated. But certainly from leadership and acceptance of a team that was supposed to be 5th in their division. He has created a huge impact.

Now also remember that A&M has faced the currently ranked #1 SOS late so far. Mizzou will lower that somewhat but it compares more than favorably with Notre Dame's. (Big 10 did yall no favors this year.)

Finally, let's quantify Te'o's numbers. You didn't want to get into it, and there is a reason why. His contribution goes beyond his numbers. But numbers DO have relevance to the discussion.

Notre Dame has faced 1 Top 40 offense in the country. 1. They have faced no top 10 offenses in the country.

Te'o's Numbers
Te'o ranks in the following categories are:
Tackles (98): #46
Solo Tackles (49): #58
Sacks (1.5): #550
Tackles for Loss (5.5): #411
Ints (6): #3
Forced Fumbles (0): Not ranked
Average gain on Te'o Tackle: 5 yards
Median Gain on Te'o Solo Tackle: 5 yards
Plays made in 4 OT periods: 0
I wasn't able to find the ranking for quarterback pressures but the number was 4.

These are not Heisman worthy numbers. The accomplishment of 3 straight 100 tackle seasons (second time ever at ND) is certainly a plus. The leadership and story and current ranking of Notre Dame are all of great help for Te'o. But based on this seasons numbers, he is not the best player this season in the country. His numbers do not exceed Jarvis Jones at Georgia and I think there are a number of other players who you could reasonably compare for production on the field (excluding leadership and inspiration) to Te'o.

Te'o's intangibles give him an edge over those other defensive players and his preformance at Oklahoma was impressive.

I would argue that Johnny Manziel's performance over Alabama and production on the field will lead him to a Heisman victory if all things continue on their current direction.

If Johnny blows up and fails against Mizzou and Te'o has an amazing game against USC then yes that could change.

I hope yall will take my biased points into consideration in your thinking about Manziel. Te'o is a great player, but don't discount the Freshman from Kerrville Texas just yet.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I agree, but maybe not as strongly. Some counterpoints (since you're asking):

(1) You're argument is partly based on Manziel going against teams, but QB's don't play teams, they play defenses. Probably need some defensive stats to bolster your case.

(2) You can't deny that the guy basically was a one-man offense against what many perceive as the most talented defense in CFB, on the road. That may not mean he deserves to win, but it counts for something. To put it another way, remember how everyone was arguing about how good Denard Robinson is? If you compare the two games versus Alabama, Manziel is light years ahead of DRob, who used to be a Heisman candidate in his own right and often called the most talented offensive player in CFB.

 

[NewBrunswickIrish]

Stanford is the only one of the 3 games that you showed for Barkley that even compare to the SEC games you picked. UCLA isn't in their league defensively and you're straight up crazy to think Oregon was a good choice to use. Barkley put up what 51 against them? Take away Oregon and you lose a lot of what you think makes Barkley look better as he threw for 5 of the listed 8 touchdowns agianst them. Oregon is good because their offence.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

AGND,

(1) We're not talking about the *best freshman ever*. We're talking about the best CFB player. Setting Freshman records is irrelevant from a Heisman standpoint -- either the numbers stand-out or they don't.

(2) Apologizing for Manziel not playing doesn't bolster his case. It's an excuse to make a hypothetical.

(3) Apologizing for Manziel learning a new offense doesn't bolster his case. It's an excuse to make a hypothetical.

(4) Apologizing for turnover's that "weren't Manziel's fault" doesn't bolster his case. Nobody else gets these what-if excuses.

(5) You compare Manziel only to other freshman, but compare Manti to defensive players of all positions in ranking. Apples, meet oranges.

 

[MNIrishman]

I would argue that Oregon absolutely deserves to be there. Their first team gets to take a nap in almost every second half and yet they are only allowing four more points per game than LSU.

Edit:

My point with bringing up Barkley wasn't to demonstrate that Barkley is better in every way, necessarily, only that Manziel is not unquestionably the best at his position, as a Heisman QB should be. I fully believe that someday he will be, but not today.

 

[IrishLax]

Te'o doesn't have "Heisman numbers" in large part to how little time our defense spends on the field. We're in the top 10-15 in time of possession.

He has 8 forced turnovers (6 INTS, 2 FR), some of which were game changing, and captains the #1 defense. Plus he forced 2 more INTs with QB pressure on Denard. That's why you'd vote for him.

I don't know why the Heisman turned into the "QB with the most impressive stats on a hot team" award.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Manziel has played 3 games against elite defenses-- 'Bama, UF, and LSU. He was amazing against 'Bama, UF largely contained him, and LSU made him look bad.

Against LSU, he was 29/56 for 276 yards (4.9 YPA), 0 TD and 3 INTs. Such games are usually enough to knock a player out of serious Heisman contention, but some voters are so determined to give it to a QB that they're willing to overlook this.

Manziel's Aggies have 2 losses. Te'o's Irish have none.

Te'o's total tackles are down this year because opposing offenses simply aren't trying to run at us anymore, and there are lots of 3 and outs. Te'o's status as the undisputed leader of the #1 scoring defense in the country, and as the best player on the #1 team in the country, both militate strongly in his favor.

From the Heisman site:

The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity.

How does that describe anyone but Te'o? Has Manziel rescued any orphans from a burning building lately? I don't think so.

 

[irishpat183]

Te'o not only is a fantastic leader....but does so much on the field than just "making tackles".


Don't get me wrong...Johnny Football will have his trophy case filled by the time he leaves college station. Not doubt about that one. He'll be fun to watch for the next 3 years.


But Te'o is not only a great player...but a great person. It's about time the Heisman actually went to someone that is a perfect example of what the award is supposed to stand for. LIke Lax mentioned....Let's not let stats be the only factor.

 

[Irish#1]

Manziel has played 3 games against elite defenses-- 'Bama, UF, and LSU. He was amazing against 'Bama, UF largely contained him, and LSU made him look bad.

Against LSU, he was 29/56 for 276 yards (4.9 YPA), 0 TD and 3 INTs. Such games are usually enough to knock a player out of serious Heisman contention, but some voters are so determined to give it to a QB that they're willing to overlook this.

Manziel's Aggies have 2 losses. Te'o's Irish have none.

Te'o's total tackles are down this year because opposing offenses simply aren't trying to run at us anymore, and there are lots of 3 and outs. Te'o's status as the undisputed leader of the #1 scoring defense in the country, and as the best player on the #1 team in the country, both militate strongly in his favor.

From the Heisman site:



How does that describe anyone but Te'o? Has Manziel rescued any orphans from a burning building lately? I don't think so.

Whiskey,
You're going to make him wish he never posted.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I think the "comparisons versus elite teams" argument is largely a push. JM vs Alabama is slightly better than Manti vs. Oklahoma, but Manti didn't have the 3-INT choke fest versus LSU.

 

[AGNDfan]

AGND,

(1) We're not talking about the *best freshman ever*. We're talking about the best CFB player. Setting Freshman records is irrelevant from a Heisman standpoint -- either the numbers stand-out or they don't.

(2) Apologizing for Manziel not playing doesn't bolster his case. It's an excuse to make a hypothetical.

(3) Apologizing for Manziel learning a new offense doesn't bolster his case. It's an excuse to make a hypothetical.

(4) Apologizing for turnover's that "weren't Manziel's fault" doesn't bolster his case. Nobody else gets these what-if excuses.

(5) You compare Manziel only to other freshman, but compare Manti to defensive players of all positions in ranking. Apples, meet oranges.

Okay so let's talk (1) The numbers stand out. Manziel is #2 in the nation in total offense. This against the best defensive confrence in the country. And Te'o's numbers are mediocre at best. He may not even be the best linebacker in the country. DaMontre Moore, Jarvis Jones and several others have comparable numbers. So if the numbers don't stand out Te'o's don't aside from his interceptions.

(2) If Manziel's numbers do stand out. And they do, arguing otherwise is willful blindness, then the fact that he put them up while playing in less time isn't a hypethetical. It's not these are his adjusted numbers if he played every game this season, the whole game and a championship game. We're talking about his real numbers which exceed Tim Tebow and will exceed Cam Newton's Heisman winning numbers. No hypethitical, but more impressive.

(3) It factors into his story and the story around him. What if Te'o doesn't experience his double tragedy. Does that affect his national media story? Of course it does.

(4) Okay point taken

(5) Let's look at Braxton Miller and Collin Klein. Three QBs who play easier schedules against less impressive defenses and secondaries who are all in the Heisman race as well:

Manziel Miller Klein
Rushing Yds 1114 1214 787
Passing Yds 3047 1850 2306
Rushing TDs 17 13 20
Passing TDs 21 14 14
Ints 7 6 6
Compl % 67.7 66.7 56.8
Total Yds 4161 3064 3093
Total TDs 38 27 34

So he has over a 1000 more yards than the most likely two other Heisman quarterback candidates. More TDs with only 1 more INT on significantly more attempts than either of the other two with a higher completion rate. Also he has faced significantly harder defenses throughout the season than ND and Te'o have faced offenses.

Now let's look at Te'o against Jarvis Jones:

Te'o Jones
Tackles 98 62
Sacks 1.5 10.5
TFL 5.5 18
INT 6 1
FRecov 2 2
FForce 0 6
Total yards lost from Te'o's TFL: 19
Total yards lost from Te'o's Sacks: 19
Total yards lost from Jones TFL: 101
Total yards lost from Jones Sacks: 80

Yes Te'o has more tackles, but you can make a solid argument that Jones play has been more impactful. 143 more yards lost due to impact plays and more created turn overs in two fewer games. Also against a stronger strength of schedule than Notre Dame.

And before you say apples vs. oranges, they are both defensive playes up for the Bendarik trophy.

As you can see Manziel is significantly out performing his competition in a way Te'o s not.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the "comparisons versus elite teams" argument is largely a push. JM vs Alabama is slightly better than Manti vs. Oklahoma, but Manti didn't have the 3-INT choke fest versus LSU.

Exactly. Te'o's "worst" game ended up being 5 tackles, 1 sack and 1 PBU in a win over Pitt. He hasn't choked in any game this season, which is partly why we're still undefeated.

Manziel can't claim the same.

 

[ab2cmiller]

In regards to Manziel's games against Florida and LSU:

Florida:
Manziel and Texas A&M had the ball 6 times in the second half with half of those possessions being behind and needing a score to pull ahead. 5 of their posessions were 3 and outs and the other they were able to pick up 22 yards. I'll give you he's a redshirt freshman and it's his first game and he's still learning, but that's brutal.

LSU:
I will give you the one interception (off the chest of the receiver) not being his fault. To blame one of the other interceptions on it being a timing route and supposedly not Manziels fault is a huge stretch. It was thrown off his back foot right into coverage. If the receiver wouldn't have stopped he might have been able to prevent the DB from making the interception, but it was a bad throw that shouldn't have been made.

Against LSU in the 4th Qtr Manziel was given the ball three times with a chance to go ahead and failed each time. Two of these drives even had great field position. One drive started at LSU's 48 while the other started at LSU's 16 yard line. The result was no points on the board as they couldn't move the ball. The third possession resulted in an interception. After that they never had an opportunity to go ahead.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

AGND,

I don't mind the whole "He's better because he's playing against the SEC" thing, but I would be more convinced if you could refine and post his stats to exclude SMU, South Carolina State, LaTech and Sam Houston State.

Otherwise you're giving him credit for things which even you say shouldn't count.

 

[AGNDfan]

I still think LA Tech which was ranked higher than A&M when they played should be included but I'll work on that.

Comparably which games should I eliminate from Te'o's totals?

 

[ickythump1225]

Manziel has played 3 games against elite defenses-- 'Bama, UF, and LSU. He was amazing against 'Bama, UF largely contained him, and LSU made him look bad.

Against LSU, he was 29/56 for 276 yards (4.9 YPA), 0 TD and 3 INTs. Such games are usually enough to knock a player out of serious Heisman contention, but some voters are so determined to give it to a QB that they're willing to overlook this.

Manziel's Aggies have 2 losses. Te'o's Irish have none.

Te'o's total tackles are down this year because opposing offenses simply aren't trying to run at us anymore, and there are lots of 3 and outs. Te'o's status as the undisputed leader of the #1 scoring defense in the country, and as the best player on the #1 team in the country, both militate strongly in his favor.

From the Heisman site:



How does that describe anyone but Te'o? Has Manziel rescued any orphans from a burning building lately? I don't think so.

I mean they gave it to $Cam Newton so I guess the whole "with integrity" thing doesn't mean much anymore.

 

[johnnykillz]

Yes Te'o has more tackles, but you can make a solid argument that Jones play has been more impactful. 143 more yards lost due to impact plays and more created turn overs in two fewer games. Also against a stronger strength of schedule than Notre Dame.

Jones has lost 2 games.

Te'o none.

Linebacker is the QB on defense: the pivot man.

His defense is the best in the country.

 

[AGNDfan]

Miller, I would say comparibly that Te'o didn't make a single play in any of Notre Dame's 4 OT periods. That seems to be a large period of time in which a Heisman candidate could have made some contribution. I only watched OT in Pitt, I had a conflict but I saw the Stanford OT and he didn't seem to be much a factor in either in OT.

 

[ickythump1225]

In regards to Manziel's games against Florida and LSU:

Florida:
Manziel and Texas A&M had the ball 6 times in the second half with half of those possessions being behind and needing a score to pull ahead. 5 of their posessions were 3 and outs and the other they were able to pick up 22 yards. I'll give you he's a redshirt freshman and it's his first game and he's still learning, but that's brutal.

LSU:
I will give you the one interception (off the chest of the receiver) not being his fault. To blame one of the other interceptions on it being a timing route and supposedly not Manziels fault is a huge stretch. It was thrown off his back foot right into coverage. If the receiver wouldn't have stopped he might have been able to prevent the DB from making the interception, but it was a bad throw that shouldn't have been made.

Against LSU in the 4th Qtr Manziel was given the ball three times with a chance to go ahead and failed each time. Two of these drives even had great field position. One drive started at LSU's 48 while the other started at LSU's 16 yard line. The result was no points on the board as they couldn't move the ball. The third possession resulted in an interception. After that they never had an opportunity to go ahead.

On a side note, if they would have beaten LSU TAMU would be in control of their own destiny to win the SEC in their first year in the conference. That would be hilarious.

 

[irishpat183]

Okay so let's talk (1) The numbers stand out. Manziel is #2 in the nation in total offense. This against the best defensive confrence in the country. And Te'o's numbers are mediocre at best. He may not even be the best linebacker in the country. DaMontre Moore, Jarvis Jones and several others have comparable numbers. So if the numbers don't stand out Te'o's don't aside from his interceptions.

(2) If Manziel's numbers do stand out. And they do, arguing otherwise is willful blindness, then the fact that he put them up while playing in less time isn't a hypethetical. It's not these are his adjusted numbers if he played every game this season, the whole game and a championship game. We're talking about his real numbers which exceed Tim Tebow and will exceed Cam Newton's Heisman winning numbers. No hypethitical, but more impressive.

(3) It factors into his story and the story around him. What if Te'o doesn't experience his double tragedy. Does that affect his national media story? Of course it does.

(4) Okay point taken

(5) Let's look at Braxton Miller and Collin Klein. Three QBs who play easier schedules against less impressive defenses and secondaries who are all in the Heisman race as well:

Manziel Miller Klein
Rushing Yds 1114 1214 787
Passing Yds 3047 1850 2306
Rushing TDs 17 13 20
Passing TDs 21 14 14
Ints 7 6 6
Compl % 67.7 66.7 56.8
Total Yds 4161 3064 3093
Total TDs 38 27 34

So he has over a 1000 more yards than the most likely two other Heisman quarterback candidates. More TDs with only 1 more INT on significantly more attempts than either of the other two with a higher completion rate. Also he has faced significantly harder defenses throughout the season than ND and Te'o have faced offenses.

Now let's look at Te'o against Jarvis Jones:

Te'o Jones
Tackles 98 62
Sacks 1.5 10.5
TFL 5.5 18
INT 6 1
FRecov 2 2
FForce 0 6
Total yards lost from Te'o's TFL: 19
Total yards lost from Te'o's Sacks: 19
Total yards lost from Jones TFL: 101
Total yards lost from Jones Sacks: 80

Yes Te'o has more tackles, but you can make a solid argument that Jones play has been more impactful. 143 more yards lost due to impact plays and more created turn overs in two fewer games. Also against a stronger strength of schedule than Notre Dame.

And before you say apples vs. oranges, they are both defensive playes up for the Bendarik trophy.

As you can see Manziel is significantly out performing his competition in a way Te'o s not.

UGA has played two ranked teams all year long...and got housed by one of them. Their schedule, top to bottom, is no where NEAR as tough as ND's. Come on.

But I agree that Jones is a fantastic player.


And Te'o has his team undefeated. That counts.

 

[irishpat183]

I still think LA Tech which was ranked higher than A&M when they played should be included but I'll work on that.

Comparably which games should I eliminate from Te'o's totals?

Find the FCS team. You can eliminate that one.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Funny, 22 out of Manziel's 38 TD's came from non-BCS schools...

I think that personally seals the deal.

6 TD's vs. SMU

6 TD's vs LaTech

5 TD's vs. South Carolina State

5 TD's vs. Sam Houston State

He's basically Steve McNair.

 

[MPClinton22]

Ok just one thing about comparing Jarvis Jones to Manti. The reason he has so many sacks is primarily scheme. They scheme for him to blitz the QB and get tackles behind the line of scrimmage. Te'o monitors the middle of the field, cleaning up any runs that get past Nix/Tuitt/KLM (which doesn't happen very often) and patrolling the area for passes over the middle. Again, you're comparing Apples and oranges. That would be like comparing a pass first and a run first QB. Obviously the run first QB will have more rushing yards.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Ok just one thing about comparing Jarvis Jones to Manti. The reason he has so many sacks is primarily scheme. They scheme for him to blitz the QB and get tackles behind the line of scrimmage. Te'o monitors the middle of the field, cleaning up any runs that get past Nix/Tuitt/KLM (which doesn't happen very often) and patrolling the area for passes over the middle. Again, you're comparing Apples and oranges. That would be like comparing a pass first and a run first QB. Obviously the run first QB will have more rushing yards.

Your using logic in your post. That's not allowed.

 

[johnnykillz]

Find the FCS team. You can eliminate that one.

Funny, 22 out of Manziel's 38 TD's came from non-BCS schools...

I think that personally seals the deal.

6 TD's vs. SMU

6 TD's vs LaTech

5 TD's vs. South Carolina State

5 TD's vs. Sam Houston State

He's basically Steve McNair.

Game. Set. Match.

This is ridiculous.

It's sad we're even having this conversation.

 

[AGNDfan]

Regarding best defense in the country:
Notre Dame's defensive ranks:
Yards given up: 6th
Yards per play: 6th
Opponent first downs: 16th
Opponent 3rd down convers per game: 23rd
Opponent average time of posession: 12th
Opponent 3rd down convers %: 31st

Now you have the best scoring defense but only because we lit up Alabama for 29.

Alabama's defense is better by the numbers.

 

[johnnykillz]

Regarding best defense in the country:
Notre Dame's defensive ranks:
Yards given up: 6th
Yards per play: 6th
Opponent first downs: 16th
Opponent 3rd down convers per game: 23rd
Opponent average time of posession: 12th
Opponent 3rd down convers %: 31st

Now you have the best scoring defense but only because we lit up Alabama for 29.

Alabama's defense is better by the numbers.

Well Alabama had an FCS school to offset the difference.

We are the best in the nation,

We will have played 12, TWELVE, FBS schools.

Texas's little unfortunate orphaned brother nor can Bama say that.