Notre Dame 11th in newest BCS

[Irish Envy]

http://www.bcsfootball.org/files/wk4-2005-short.pdf

 

[nayers]

this should be enough if we win out to go to a BCS

 

[Irish Envy]

We'll be in the Top 10 before all is said and done.

LSU plays Alabama head-to-head, so one of those teams is going to fall out of the Top 10 in the polls, which will hurt their BCS chances. On top of it, then you have the SEC championship game which gives one of these teams a chance at getting beat, again. Throw Georgia in this same mix because they have Ga Tech and Auburn left, then the SEC championship game if they win out.

Ohio State closes out with Nortwestern and Michigan, both rank and both that would love nothing more then to dash Ohio States' BCS hopes.

Oregon has two big games left including the border war game with Oregon State.

Penn State has Michigan State that will be very pissed losing to Purdue.

USC, Texas, VT, Miami will all route remaining opponents.

All this said, Notre Dame could end up in the Top 8.

 

[leppycole]

All we needed was to be at 12. All we need to do now is win out.

 

[Irish Envy]

All we needed was to be at 12. All we need to do now is win out.

Right, but we are one of the sole 2 loss teams among those 12. I don't think sitting at 11 will do us any good. We must get as high as we can to get the best bowl we can.

 

[weisfaninmass]

All we needed was to be at 12. All we need to do now is win out.

All we need it that but i don't want to live thru the media crucifying ND for going to the BCS above 'higher ranked teams'.....we need to (and we will) finish in the Top 6 by season end.

 

[jiggafini19]

I see Oregon getting screwed in this whole ordeal.

They'll get left out when one, maybe two, two-loss teams sneak in there.

 

[Irish Envy]

I see Oregon getting screwed in this whole ordeal.

They'll get left out when one, maybe two, two-loss teams sneak in there.

Yeah, but I can't really blame the BCS. If there is a weak conference in college football, it's the Pac 10. Outside of USC, the rest of the conference is filled with decent teams that can play mediocre on a moment's notice.

 

[jiggafini19]

Yeah, but I can't really blame the BCS. If there is a weak conference in college football, it's the Pac 10. Outside of USC, the rest of the conference is filled with decent teams that can play mediocre on a moment's notice.

Their one loss is to USC.

Have some nice road wins. Also beat Fresno State.

But also beat Montana. Sorry guys. I-AA teams = BCS slippage.

 

[BigIrish]

Their one loss is to USC.

Have some nice road wins. Also beat Fresno State.

But also beat Montana. Sorry guys. I-AA teams = BCS slippage.

montana is the kicker, but fresno state? they might be a solid mid-major against WAC competition, but it's still the WAC. and they only beat them by three.

they were manhandled by So Cal.

let's be realistic. there are teams that will likely get screwed by the BCS this year, but oregon isn't one of them. you can't polish a turd. the pac 10 is downright bad this year. even UCLA was exposed this week.

 

[jiggafini19]

montana is the kicker, but fresno state? they might be a solid mid-major against WAC competition, but it's still the WAC. and they only beat them by three.

This margin of victory thing really fascinates me to no end. I don't consider football to be a beauty contest. This is what screwed ND in 1993. Had they beaten FSU 31-17, they'd have been National Champs even with a loss to BC the next week. Dumb.

Fresno State has been ranked most of the year. That program has beaten BCS teams in the past three years. They won the game by 3. Would winning by 14 be that much more impressive?

Montana hurts them more than anything else. The schedule argument could be a never ending thread that we could argue about forever. They're in a conference, playing a schedule that was drawn up 4 years ago. They've played who they've played and lost one game to USC.

And who hasn't lost to USC in the last four years?

 

[BigIrish]

i'll concede fresno state. i still find them marginal in terms of being considered a quality win by a member of one of the "elite" conferences, but you're right, if you're going to play a mid-major, fresno state is among the better programs.

like i said, montana is the kicker. i have nothing but contempt for a team in a major conference who feels the need to schedule I-AA teams. i'm all for giving a mid-major a shot here and there, but there's no excuse for I-AA when you play in a major conference.

 

[Domer95]

IMO, I-AA 'wins' shouldn't even count for BCS or AP/Harris/ESPN/Coach's/etc. polls. If this were the case, TxTech wouldn't be sniffing their ranking.

 

[Vince Young]

Yes, you play who you play.

But you also schedule who you schedule.

And when you intentionally schedule a I-AA school, you know going in that it will be absolutely no challenge whatsoever. It's not like this year, when Notre Dame scheduled Pitt, Michigan State, Purdue and Tennessee and just had the bad luck of all four of those normally-strong schools having an off-year. That's just bad luck, and that's nobody's fault.

Scheduling a I-AA school? That's not bad luck, that's intentional. It's not like Montana was good 4 years ago and just this year unexpectedly dropped down to I-AA and started sucking out of nowhere.

There is no excuse, NO excuse, for scheduling a I-AA opponent.

 

[jimoats]

Has anyone paid any attention to Penn State's schedule? 8 of 10 games at home and opened their season against South Florida, Cincinnati, and Central Michigan. With that schedule and incredible home field advantage (the loudest 107,000 I ever heard - hehe), that team should be no worse than 8-2. One of the road games was against a pathetic Ron Zook Illinois team as well. And please, Big 10 football doesn't do much impressing either. The most impressive team I've seen this year is Northwestern.

 

[jiggafini19]

Everyone seems to have an opinion.

So far this year, I've heard the Pac 10, Big 12, Big 10 and SEC are all "down", "bad", "suck", etc, etc.

Apparently there are no good conferences this year. The argument seems to go in circles each year.

The only people that benefit from a I-A playing a I-AA are the I-A third stringers and the person cashing the checks at the I-AA school.

 

[jiggafini19]

And please, Big 10 football doesn't do much impressing either. The most impressive team I've seen this year is Northwestern.

This one made my morning. I have a tape of Northwestern laying a big fat egg against scUM a few weeks ago.

Yeah, Texas has really dodged some landmines in the Big 12. Who will they play in that big Dr. Pepper title game? Paul Blake and Texas State?

I hear a lot of people still talking about how Notre Dame "won" the USC game.

Well, Jigga says Ohio State "won" the Texas game back in September.

Considering Notre Dame is 2-1 against the Big Ten this year, that doesn't seem to bode so well.

 

[BigIrish]

IMO, the big 10 is currently the best conference top to bottom. the ACC is right there with them. the SEC has skill on defense, but nobody down there can put together an explosive offense. the pac-10 is bad. the most mediocre from top to bottom. (excepting So Cal, of course). and the big east? they just aren't the same since the exodus of miami, bc and va tech last year. they don't have the caliber of teams from top to bottom to be considered an elite conference.

 

[bigdon]

This margin of victory thing really fascinates me to no end. I don't consider football to be a beauty contest. This is what screwed ND in 1993. Had they beaten FSU 31-17, they'd have been National Champs even with a loss to BC the next week. Dumb.

Fresno State has been ranked most of the year. That program has beaten BCS teams in the past three years. They won the game by 3. Would winning by 14 be that much more impressive?

Montana hurts them more than anything else. The schedule argument could be a never ending thread that we could argue about forever. They're in a conference, playing a schedule that was drawn up 4 years ago. They've played who they've played and lost one game to USC.

And who hasn't lost to USC in the last four years?

The "margin of victory" thing might be falacious but it is real. Before the BCS Miami was notorious for scheduling teams like Central Michigan on their way to National Championships. Both Texas and USC run up the score in order to maintain their #1,and #2 slots in the polls. The almighty Bowden at FSU has stated many times that it's the other teams job to keep the score down, not FSU.

We have to face the fact that someone will get "screwed" in the BCS. The system is flawed and nobody has found a way to fix it.

And while we're on the subject of "bad","down" conferences the ACC is by far the most balanced, strongest conference this year. With BC, Miami,and Va. Tech added they are up top now.

 

[jiggafini19]

While I like the Big Ten's balance this year, I've gotta go with Big Don on this one. ACC trumps all others. But Big Irish hits it on the head with the SEC....the best defenses in all of America, but some very anemic offenses.

I think the SEC schedules light out of conference in September. I'd like to see more of them venture out and play some tougher games that time of year. I still think their defenses can match up with anyone.

 

[jimoats]

This is all opinion stuff but conferences and team performances go hand in hand. I'm reading stuff about tremendous defense and horrible offense in the SEC. I see the horrible offenses being a result of the tremendous defenses. The SEC gets the most athletic players in the country. It's easy to have such a great defense with athletic players. Offenses suffer because it still takes execution despite the athleticism.

I read stuff about the Big 10 and say how great the defenses are there. I think the defenses in the Big 10 look good because I see inadequate offenses. I see lack of ingenuity from the Big 10 and blame low scoring efforts (hence, 'great defensive performances') to lackluster offensive play calling. The typical playbook in the big 10 is line up over the ball and hammer away and hope you average 4 yards a running play. That style of play is so boring and that is why I made my reference to Northwestern earlier. It was nice to see some team from teh Big 10 play an 'exciting' style of football.

The playbook is written and should be titled, "Bad weather playbook." Although the same playbook is used even if it's 75 and sunny.

And please room, I'm generalizing. I'm not implying that EVERY play is a running play. I'm exaggerating a bit to accent my point.

 

[bigdon]

This is all opinion stuff but conferences and team performances go hand in hand. I'm reading stuff about tremendous defense and horrible offense in the SEC. I see the horrible offenses being a result of the tremendous defenses. The SEC gets the most athletic players in the country. It's easy to have such a great defense with athletic players. Offenses suffer because it still takes execution despite the athleticism.

I read stuff about the Big 10 and say how great the defenses are there. I think the defenses in the Big 10 look good because I see inadequate offenses. I see lack of ingenuity from the Big 10 and blame low scoring efforts (hence, 'great defensive performances') to lackluster offensive play calling. The typical playbook in the big 10 is line up over the ball and hammer away and hope you average 4 yards a running play. That style of play is so boring and that is why I made my reference to Northwestern earlier. It was nice to see some team from teh Big 10 play an 'exciting' style of football.

The playbook is written and should be titled, "Bad weather playbook." Although the same playbook is used even if it's 75 and sunny.

And please room, I'm generalizing. I'm not implying that EVERY play is a running play. I'm exaggerating a bit to accent my point.

I can certainly agree with you on Northwestern. They are a breath of fresh to a stodgy Big 10. As much as I hate Urban Meyer he does give the game another look. Beamer at Va Tech the same. I really believe we like to see a lot of scoring and that's why ND is fun this year. My Father thinks a 10-7 game is great. I do too--it allows me to take a nap!

 

[IrishfaninLA]

IMO, the big 10 is currently the best conference top to bottom. the ACC is right there with them. the SEC has skill on defense, but nobody down there can put together an explosive offense. the pac-10 is bad. the most mediocre from top to bottom. (excepting So Cal, of course). and the big east? they just aren't the same since the exodus of miami, bc and va tech last year. they don't have the caliber of teams from top to bottom to be considered an elite conference.

I gotta disagree with you. The Big 12 is by far the most medicore conference year in and year out. Take away Texas and the next best is Colorado at 7-2. the Pac-10 still has UCLA (although I believe they will lose there next 2 games), Oregon, and Cal. Arizona State beat Northwestern, one of the contenders for the big 10 title, 3 of their losses are against top ranked teams (SC,LSU,Oregon) would a power house in the big 12.

 

[BGIF]

Everyone seems to have an opinion.

So far this year, I've heard the Pac 10, Big 12, Big 10 and SEC are all "down", "bad", "suck", etc, etc.

Apparently there are no good conferences this year. The argument seems to go in circles each year.

The only people that benefit from a I-A playing a I-AA are the I-A third stringers and the person cashing the checks at the I-AA school.

Everyone seems to an opinion on conference and from reading the replies most of the opinons are regional much like the pollsters.


Quite a few teams and conferences ARE benefiting big time from playing I-AA schools.

38 Div 1-A teams are an aggregate 39-1 against Div 1-AA teams.

I didn't count how many teams need to count a 1-AA win to be bowl eligilbe but there are quite a few. And whether they count them or not to be bowl eligible those 44 wins are factored into their league's Out of Conference record and the pollsters count every one of those wins when voting. And those wins get counted again when strong Div 1 team beats a weak Div 1 team with 1AA wins (opponent's - opponents wins). BTW, am I alone in noticing that there is conference/regional preference for scheduling 1 AA teams?



Army will look for its 3rd win of the season this weekend against Massachusettes.

Baylor 4-5 has to count the Samford win to reach 6.

BYU 5-4 will probably need the Eastern Illinois win with Wyoming and Utah left to go.

Houston 4-4 has to count the win over Sam Houston St to get to 6.

Iowa 5-4 needs their win over Northern Iowa and a win over Wisconsin or Minnesota to become bowl eligible.

LA-Lafayette 4-5 with 2 to go has to count Northwestern.

LA- Monroe 3-5 with 3 to go has to count Northwestern.

LSU 7-1 counts Appalachian St. as do the pollsters.

Marshall 4-4 is counting William & Mary.

Memphis 4-4 is counting UT-Chattanooga.

Mississippi owes one of its 3 wins to The Citadel.

Miss St counts Murray St as one of its 2 victims.

Nebraska needs a win against KSU or CU to reach 6 including the win over Maine.

NC St 4-4 has a win over Eastern Ky and will need it to be bowl eligible.

OK St owes one of its 3 wins to Montana St.

Oregon wouldn't have an 8-1 record with the Montana win.

Oregon St 5-4 needs another win and the Portland St victory to hit 6.

PITT owes one of its 4 wins to Youngstown St.

Rutgers has 6 wins including Villanova and may not win another.

San Jose St's only win is over Eastern Washington.

So Miss 4-3 will count its win over McNeese St

4-3 South Florida's win over Florida A&M should enable them to get 6.

Stanford 4-4 has one of its 4 LOSSES to UC-Davis!

Texas A&M 5-4 needs a win over OU or Texas plus their Texas St win to hit 6.

Texas Tech wouldn't be 8-1 without Sam Houston St. AND Indiana St.

Troy 4-5 counts wins over Cal Poly.

Tulane 2-6 boasts a win over SE Louisiana.

UAB 4-4 needs their win over Jacksonville St.

Utah St 2-6 boasts a win over Nicholls St

Vandy with an effort like their Florida game, could beat UK and UT for 6 wins counting Richmond.

Washington's only win is over Idaho.

West Virginia 7-1 with a win over WOFFORD.

Fresno St didn't have to count the win over Weber St but they'll pollsters count it.

Same for Boise St's win over Portland St.

Same for FSU's win over The Citadel.

Same for Auburn's win over Western Kentucky,

Same for CAL's win over Sacramento St

Duke's only win is over VMI.


N.B.: Games for North Texas which is 1-A (Sun Belt Conf) have been deleted and the totals revised. And Iowa (Northern Iowa 1-AA) and BYU(Eastern Illinois) added.

 

[jiggafini19]

Nice work BGIF. I do believe that North Texas is I-A, however.

Your point on the regional factor is a good one. At least the Big Ten plays the MAC or other DI schools. Although Iowa did play Northern Iowa this year.

Being from a I-AA program, I had the opportunity to play in four of these games, including two in one year. It was kind of like being the middle child and getting your ass kicked by your big brother. Then, once conference started, we were that much tougher and kicked little brother's ass all season.

 

[irishnd31]

BGIF did his homework. Good Lord. Great post and I appreciate the break down.

 

[Domer95]

Did I miss something? I thought that I-AA wins were EXCLUDED from win totals when looking thru to bowl eligibility. Have the rules changed?

 

[BGIF]

Jiggs, thanks for the catch of North Texas who is in the Sun Belt and noting Iowa over Northern Iowa. I revised the list and numbers above.

 

[jiggafini19]

Jiggs, thanks for the catch of North Texas who is in the Sun Belt and noting Iowa over Northern Iowa. I revised the list and numbers above.

And BYU beat Eastern Illinois.

 

[BGIF]

Did I miss something? I thought that I-AA wins were EXCLUDED from win totals when looking thru to bowl eligibility. Have the rules changed?

The BCS allows a team to count 1-AA "every couple of years" toward the 6 win total for bowl eligibility.

If you can recall BCS Standings listings in past years they included the Wins/Losses, Quality Wins, Strength of Schedule along with the AP, Coaches, and different computer polls. I

n recent years the BCS eliminated Quality Wins because of complaints from Conferences with Championship Games arguing that the loser of that game could face 2 loses from the same team. They argued that wasn't fair althought those conferences in going to a 2 division alignment minimized the number of games between the major powers in the conference while adding directional schools and/or 1-AA teams in their place.

The 1-AA exclusion was watered down to allow them to count as wins but only every couple of years for bowl eligibility. This only matters if team has exactly 6 wins. So if you have 7 wins with 6 wins over 1-A teams the 1-AA game is mute for that year. BUT your fellow conference members count it in Out of Conference play calculations and it's counted among computer polls that base Strength of Schedule not on relative strength of teams but use "W"s and "L"s to compute Opponents Records, and Opponent's Opponents Records.

Playing 1-A bottom feeders and 1-AA teams augments wins by league teams. This "enlightened scheduling" guaranteed that at least 2 power teams should be undefeated or be low loss teams thus getting high poll recognition for the Championship Game while making sure enough of their Conference bottom feeders would be bowl eligible for the conference's bowl contractural tie-ins maximizing Conference revenue sharing.

Take a look at the BCS Standings. Do you see Wins or Losses. Nope.

Now check the Coaches and Harris Polls they list all Wins and Losses in their standing. No deducts for 1-AA.

Same with the computer polls. Fans complain about the computers but the BCS does not want true Strength of Schedule. Go to Sagarin's site and read his notes. He complains that the BCS only allows him to use Wins and Losses which he calls the politically correct way of ranking teams. Sagarin actually rates teams on relative strength and margin of victory but the BCS will not accept those numbers.