Actually, A Good Yahoo Sports Article

[ACamp1900]

K. State will NOT beat Texas. I'd bet one months pay on it.

Every other fan base in the country is saying the same about ND and SC...

Regardless it will sort out one way or the other

 

[BurningRiver]

To all the people saying "if we win out, we're in the NC game no matter what Oregon and KSU do because we're Notre freakin' Dame": it doesn't work like that. The National Championship game automatically takes the #1 and #2 teams in the country--they have no choice. At this point, our NC hopes ride on the backs of the voters, most of whom still aren't drinking the ND kool-aid and have been swimming in the KSU and Oregon kool-aid all season. The unbiased computers love Notre Dame, but the completely biased AP and Harris Polls still hate Notre Dame and won't vote ND ahead of an undefeated KSU or Oregon team.

In order for us to make it to the National Championship game, we definitely need one of KSU or Oregon to lose. Definitely.

 

[ACamp1900]

Looking at it, Bama still has a real shot... All three ahead of them face real challenges at least once...

 

[kmoose]

Because kmoose says so? I didn't see anything like that in the non-existent guidelines used by the human voters.

This all comes back to preseason rankings having far too much influence on the final outcome. Poll stagnation is indefensible, whether you're benefiting from it or not.

Ok, maybe I am not communicating my position very well. I don't condone, nor am I happy with the current poll situation. I'm a firm advocate for getting rid of the preseason polls. My point is that ND fans whining about the effect of the preseason polls on the current poll can only portray us as just what people want to think we are: elitist, self-entitled, arrogant crybabies. Other teams have been dealing with this for decades, and at the hands of ND bias, in many cases. Remember when the Ducks thought that they should go to the Fiesta Bowl, instead of Notre Dame, to play tOSU? How'd that work out for us? We got worked, that's how. So now we are complaining that they are ranked in front of us? Yeah, that's falling on deaf ears. My point is that this is a process that Kelly is instilling. When the process is complete, they might just be able to put together a run like Holtz had. (I don't think ANYONE can put together a run like Leahy, Parseghian, or Rockne, anymore; the 85 scholarship limit and other rules have made CFB too competitive for that) There's often a lot of talk about how sports teaches many life lessons....... well, let's buy into Coach K's philosophy, and not get too caught up in the polls. At least wait until everything is decided on the field.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

That's what I don't think a lot of these people screaming for "style points" understand. No matter how much we beat Pitt, BC, and Wake by no one in the human polls is going to jump us over KSU or Oregon because of the quality of our competition. A win is a win and nothing for us has changed. Even beating Wake by 50 isn't going to help if Oregon and KSU win also. We're going to need Stanford, OSU, Baylor, Texas, or maybe even USC to help us out.

Unfortunately, we'll never really know whether ND would have jumped KSU and/or Oregon in the polls had Pitt, BC and hopefully Wake been buried by 30 each. We all knew that the jump wouldn't be made by squeaking by any or all of those opponents and that is the sad truth of the situation right now. What is being talked about now isn't how ND squeaked by Purdue but rather how they squeaked by Pitt and beat BC by "just" 15. If they had won both by wide margins on the heels of beating Oklahoma by 17 the tone of the discussion would be different. Alas, we'll never know. Now ND must take care of business in each of the next 2 weeks.

 

[DANsanity15]

I still have no idea why there was never a playoff format introduced years ago... You would think the NCAA would've smartened up and realized 2 things. 1. It would truly put the best 2 teams against each other. And 2. They could bring in some serious revenue from a playoff system.

 

[rocket66]

ND is having the best season we've seen in 20 years and somehow we have to have these discussions. It's super frustrating and takes a bit of the fun out of the ride.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My point is that ND fans whining about the effect of the preseason polls on the current poll can only portray us as just what people want to think we are: elitist, self-entitled, arrogant crybabies.

I don't follow this. If we win out and still get frozen out of the title game, we'll be the first and only major contender to suffer such a fate (former mid-majors like BSU and TCU don't count due to their laughably weak schedules). How is it "elitist, self-entitled, [or] arrogant" to complain about being in this position? The BCS sucks. Thank God it's going away, but past success (pre-BCS, mind you) doesn't make us hypocrites for criticizing it now.

Other teams have been dealing with this for decades, and at the hands of ND bias, in many cases.

ND hasn't won a title during the BCS era, so I don't see how this is relevant. Do you believe we won a pre-BCS title due to undeserved poll bias?

Remember when the Ducks thought that they should go to the Fiesta Bowl, instead of Notre Dame, to play tOSU? How'd that work out for us? We got worked, that's how.

How the BCS bowls select competitors is a completely separate issue. As we all know, they're driven by ratings and cash. So no, I don't feel the need to apologize for getting selected over an upstart team with few fans and absolutely no tradition.

So now we are complaining that they are ranked in front of us? Yeah, that's falling on deaf ears.

Who's complaining about Oregon? If they manage to win out, they absolutely deserve to be ranked ahead of us. Kansas State? Not so much.

Legitimate title runs are a rarity. Even the best teams only make a serious run a few times each decade. The fact that ND is in the midst of one now, for the first time in 19 years, is really special. Yet the magic is being spoiled by the very real possibility that we could run the table and still get frozen out by an arbitrary indefensible system. ND fans are justified in complaining.

 

[ARALOU]

In my lifetime, regarding Notre Dame football, nothing has changed. Pollsters have always hated them. Even in 88 there was controversy. Let's not talk about 93. 73 a team they beat shared the title. 77 there were haters moaning. SOS different year. Proudly the Irish are pissing off the haters again. ND is a top 3 team thus far. May finish better than that. Let's wait and see. I like being in the conversation instead being 5and5

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Article was right on the money.

 

[RDU Irish]

No complaints here. ND in the title talk with two games to go, hasn't happened since I was in high school. I would welcome the chaos of winning the Rose Bowl to cap a 13-0 finish and debate if we are better than Oregon or Kansas State.

Beats the hell out of losing to USC and/or losing a bowl game! I would be way less pissed off at 13-0 and no championship than I would be at 12-1 and no championship.

 

[CTIDANDREW]

I don't follow this. If we win out and still get frozen out of the title game, we'll be the first and only major contender to suffer such a fate (former mid-majors like BSU and TCU don't count due to their laughably weak schedules). How is it "elitist, self-entitled, [or] arrogant" to complain about being in this position? The BCS sucks. Thank God it's going away, but past success (pre-BCS, mind you) doesn't make us hypocrites for criticizing it now.

Auburn 2004 went undefeated and was shut out. Only other example of what might happen to ND this year.

Regardless, you have been spot on. Pre-season polls are a joke, they have way to much power or where teams end up.

The BCS is the most flawed system sports ranking system I have ever layed my eyes on. It is really unfortunate that this is happening.

 

[irishfan]

Article was completely correct. This used to annoy me a few years ago when WVU/Lville would be pre-season Top 10 and would stay there all year even though they played no one of note.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Auburn 2004 went undefeated and was shut out. Only other example of what might happen to ND this year.

Forgot about 2004; they got robbed as well. Both USC (#1) and OU (#2) started the season ranked higher than Auburn (#18), and since all three went undefeated, the Tigers never had a chance to jump them.

 

[ARALOU]

Forgot about 2004; they got robbed as well. Both USC (#1) and OU (#2) started the season ranked higher than Auburn (#18), and since all three went undefeated, the Tigers never had a chance to jump them.[/QUOTE




You know, actually that was the beginning of the SEC crying about being left out. Many made the argument, including myself, that they were as good as anyone and the SEC is tough. Now its gotten out of hand. They think the SEC championship game is an automatic bid to the NC.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

I hate to say it, but Penn St. had a couple undefeated seasons where they didn't play for the championship.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Irrelevant. Even if we had blown out Pitt and BC by 30 points a piece, we wouldn't be ahead of KSU in the human polls.

Ok, how about if we had blown out Stanford? ND's been great this year, there's no doubt about that, but so has K-State and Oregon. Right now, we've needed 4 overtime periods and some luck (missed field goal, too-close to call 4th and goal stop) to get to where we are. K-State and Oregon haven't needed that same amount of luck. Schedule strength is pretty much a toss- we have some impressive wins, but so do K-State and Oregon. The fact of the matter is, it's too close to call right now and if 3 teams win out, one's going to get screwed. It could be us, which would suck, but it wouldn't be any more fair if it were Oregon or K-State getting left out. Yes, preseason polls have too much influence, but with so many teams in college football the reality is that a fair system is an impossible dream.

 

[Grahambo]

Preseason polls have always been an issue and will be an issue until they are done away with. Same thing with the Coach's Poll.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Preseason polls have always been an issue and will be an issue until they are done away with. Same thing with the Coach's Poll.

At what week does it become appropriate to begin polling?

 

[kmoose]

I don't follow this. If we win out and still get frozen out of the title game, we'll be the first and only major contender to suffer such a fate (former mid-majors like BSU and TCU don't count due to their laughably weak schedules).

No we won't. See Auburn in 2004.

How is it "elitist, self-entitled, [or] arrogant" to complain about being in this position? The BCS sucks. Thank God it's going away, but past success (pre-BCS, mind you) doesn't make us hypocrites for criticizing it now.

I didn't say it was elitist, self-entitled, or arrogant. I said it would allow people to see us as such, since they love to paint ND fans with those brushes regardless of what the truth is.

Thank God it's going away, but past success (pre-BCS, mind you) doesn't make us hypocrites for criticizing it now.

No, it doesn't. The shaking our heads sadly and clucking our tongues at other schools when they complained about the bias for ND, and now complaining about the bias for other schools, is what would be hypocritical.

ND hasn't won a title during the BCS era, so I don't see how this is relevant. Do you believe we won a pre-BCS title due to undeserved poll bias?



How the BCS bowls select competitors is a completely separate issue. As we all know, they're driven by ratings and cash. So no, I don't feel the need to apologize for getting selected over an upstart team with few fans and absolutely no tradition.
.

I think we won some titles when other teams had a legitimate claim to it, as well. I'm not saying that you should apologize for anything. What I *am* saying is that we have gotten the benefit of the doubt, and we spit the bit recently when we did get it. So now the pendulum has swung the other way.

Who's complaining about Oregon? If they manage to win out, they absolutely deserve to be ranked ahead of us. Kansas State? Not so much.

I just used Oregon as an example. But you know damn well that many fans, sportswriters, and college football people feel the same way as Oregon fans.

 

[Grahambo]

At what week does it become appropriate to begin polling?

I would be just fine waiting until after the final game of the season, before bowl season, for the rankings to come out.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Ok, how about if we had blown out Stanford? ND's been great this year, there's no doubt about that, but so has K-State and Oregon. Right now, we've needed 4 overtime periods and some luck (missed field goal, too-close to call 4th and goal stop) to get to where we are. K-State and Oregon haven't needed that same amount of luck. Schedule strength is pretty much a toss- we have some impressive wins, but so do K-State and Oregon. The fact of the matter is, it's too close to call right now and if 3 teams win out, one's going to get screwed. It could be us, which would suck, but it wouldn't be any more fair if it were Oregon or K-State getting left out. Yes, preseason polls have too much influence, but with so many teams in college football the reality is that a fair system is an impossible dream.

That's the point, though. Since it's a close call between the final three unbeatens, pre-season ranking continues to be the primary factor in our inability to jump KSU; not our lack of style points against Pitt and BC.

If we had blown out a few more quality teams during our murderous 8-game stretch at the beginning of the year, then we might be sitting in the top 2 at the moment. But that's not a realistic complaint. Oregon and KSU haven't blown out the quality teams on their schedule either.

In short, if you're upset by our close wins against Pitt and BC, don't be. Blow outs wouldn't have changed anything.

 

[IrishinSyria]

That's the point, though. Since it's a close call between the final three unbeatens, pre-season ranking continues to be the primary factor in our inability to jump KSU; not our lack of style points against Pitt and BC.

If we had blown out a few more quality teams during our murderous 8-game stretch at the beginning of the year, then we might be sitting in the top 2 at the moment. But that's not a realistic complaint. Oregon and KSU haven't blown out the quality teams on their schedule either.

In short, if you're upset by our close wins against Pitt and BC, don't be. Blow outs wouldn't have changed anything.

Not upset, and I'll be extremely happy with the season no matter what happens if we win against Wake next week. 11 wins was way above what I predicted for this teams. 12 with a victory against USC would be a dream season. 13 wins was beyond my wildest imagination. And a NC would mean I could die happy.

All I'm saying is that we are hardly in a position to complain about being ranked 3 right now. All 3 teams have had great seasons and it is too close to call, but somebody's got to be third. And, like it or not we a) started ranked the lowest AND b) have had the closest games. If anything, we benefited from the preseason polls, because they made beating teams like Michigan and Michigan State seem like a much bigger deal than it actually was.

 

[IrishinSyria]

That's the point, though. Since it's a close call between the final three unbeatens, pre-season ranking continues to be the primary factor in our inability to jump KSU; not our lack of style points against Pitt and BC.

If we had blown out a few more quality teams during our murderous 8-game stretch at the beginning of the year, then we might be sitting in the top 2 at the moment. But that's not a realistic complaint. Oregon and KSU haven't blown out the quality teams on their schedule either.

In short, if you're upset by our close wins against Pitt and BC, don't be. Blow outs wouldn't have changed anything.

The only reason you think that stretch was murderous was because pre-season polls told you it was. Stanford and OU are top tier teams this year, but nobody else we've played really fit that description. Challenging schedule to be sure, but Navy, BYU, Miami, Purdue and Sparty are all average to below average college football teams this year. Michigan was a good, not great win.

 

[jimmymac]

I was thinking of this hypothetical... what if KState ends up playing Oregon in the Championship... and we end up playing in Sugar Bowl vs Alabama (not sure exactly how likely this is, but just go with me). If the Ship is close and we beat Alabama, is there any chance of a split? I think in that case there would be a good argument for us...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

No we won't. See Auburn in 2004.

We covered this 45 minutes ago.

I didn't say it was elitist, self-entitled, or arrogant. I said it would allow people to see us as such, since they love to paint ND fans with those brushes regardless of what the truth is.

Still not clear on how complaining about the pernicious influence that arbitrary pre-season rankings may have on this title race, particularly among ND fans on an ND football message board, could realistically allow others to paint us as elitist, entitled or arrogant.

No, it doesn't. The shaking our heads sadly and clucking our tongues at other schools when they complained about the bias for ND, and now complaining about the bias for other schools, is what would be hypocritical.

Again, who's claiming that the system is biased for other schools here? The BCS is biased towards the SEC, but neither Oregon nor KSU is benefiting from that.

I think we won some titles when other teams had a legitimate claim to it, as well. I'm not saying that you should apologize for anything. What I *am* saying is that we have gotten the benefit of the doubt, and we spit the bit recently when we did get it. So now the pendulum has swung the other way.

Which titles, specifically, did we win where another team had a superior claim? Regardless, all those pre-BCS teams that were allegedly robbed by ND-biased pollsters probably still claim the titles anyway.

When did we "spit the bit"? The 2005 and 2006 Irish were good teams that earned their BCS berths. They were flawed defensively, which is why we got exposed against OSU and LSU, but I'm not about to apologize to the teams that got passed over because they wouldn't be able to sell their ticket allotment.

This pendulum-swinging thing is just a bullsh!t narrative you're trying to push on us about how we have to earn our way back into the elite. I'm not buying it.

I just used Oregon as an example. But you know damn well that many fans, sportswriters, and college football people feel the same way as Oregon fans.

So you think voters are intentionally penalizing ND in the polls because ND got picked over Oregon for the 2005 Fiesta Bowl? And countless other iniquities in ND's favor over the last several decades that you can't be bothered to specifically enumerate? Spare me.

You pulled out your f*cking soap box earlier and admonished us not to complain about the polls because you believe ND has been the undeserving benefactor of BCS bias. You can't substantiate it, and now you're trying to backpedal as fast you can. I expect to get this type of bullsh!t on ESPN, but not from other Irish fans.

 

[Grahambo]

That's the point, though. Since it's a close call between the final three unbeatens, pre-season ranking continues to be the primary factor in our inability to jump KSU; not our lack of style points against Pitt and BC.

If we had blown out a few more quality teams during our murderous 8-game stretch at the beginning of the year, then we might be sitting in the top 2 at the moment. But that's not a realistic complaint. Oregon and KSU haven't blown out the quality teams on their schedule either.

In short, if you're upset by our close wins against Pitt and BC, don't be. Blow outs wouldn't have changed anything.

Can't disagree here.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The only reason you think that stretch was murderous was because pre-season polls told you it was. Stanford and OU are top tier teams this year, but nobody else we've played really fit that description. Challenging schedule to be sure, but Navy, BYU, Miami, Purdue and Sparty are all average to below average college football teams this year. Michigan was a good, not great win.

Still murderous, even if it turned out to be softer than expected. During that stretch, KSU played Missouri State, North Texas, and Kansas, and Oregon played Arkansas State, Fresno State, and Tennessee Tech. Even the worst team we faced during that 8-game strecth is significantly better than any of those teams.

Why am I having to defend ND like this? You all need to stop watching Sportscenter. Our SoS and an historically good defense are compelling arguments for our being ranked in the top 2. It's not our fault that the voters are inclined to overlook KSU's cupcakes and Oregon's lack of defense.

 

[kmoose]

We covered this 45 minutes ago.



Still not clear on how complaining about the pernicious influence that arbitrary pre-season rankings may have on this title race, particularly among ND fans on an ND football message board, could realistically allow others to paint us as elitist, entitled or arrogant.



Again, who's claiming that the system is biased for other schools here? The BCS is biased towards the SEC, but neither Oregon nor KSU is benefiting from that.



Which titles, specifically, did we win where another team had a superior claim? Regardless, all those pre-BCS teams that were allegedly robbed by ND-biased pollsters probably still claim the titles anyway.

When did we "spit the bit"? The 2005 and 2006 Irish were good teams that earned their BCS berths. They were flawed defensively, which is why we got exposed against OSU and LSU, but I'm not about to apologize to the teams that got passed over because they wouldn't be able to sell their ticket allotment.

This pendulum-swinging thing is just a bullsh!t narrative you're trying to push on us about how we have to earn our way back into the elite. I'm not buying it.



So you think voters are intentionally penalizing ND in the polls because ND got picked over Oregon for the 2005 Fiesta Bowl? And countless other iniquities in ND's favor over the last several decades that you can't be bothered to specifically enumerate? Spare me.

You pulled out your f*cking soap box earlier and admonished us not to complain about the polls because you believe ND has been the undeserving benefactor of BCS bias. You can't substantiate it, and now you're trying to backpedal as fast you can. I expect to get this type of bullsh!t on ESPN, but not from other Irish fans.

Then don't listen. Be like all of the other lemmings (except Tom, who is, in fact, an actual Lemming) and whine and cry. Be the Lowest Common Denominator, or hold your head above the fray.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Then don't listen. Be like all of the other lemmings (except Tom, who is, in fact, an actual Lemming) and whine and cry. Be the Lowest Common Denominator, or hold your head above the fray.

Who here is whining and crying? You got on your soap box and wagged your finger at all those people crying about biased pollsters (i.e. no one on this message board). I responded that ND's low (and arbitrary) pre-season ranking is what's really hurting us (read: not biased pollsters), and that ND fans can legitimately complain about getting robbed if we end up frozen out of the title game. Then you went off on some hand-waving argument about ND benefiting from biased pollsters in the past, and this being our karmic comeuppance for such.

No one was on your lawn, kmoose. Just go back inside and catch the rest of Matlock.