Two More NYC Cops shot

IrishinSyria

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I am not a police officer but I work in a locked facility... I work in a controlled environment where there are no guns (I hope) but there are other weapons.

Noncompliance is enough to go hands on, Especially out in the community where it is an uncontrolled environment. You never what can happen. If you are being noncompliant we see that as an act of agression and we are in a controlled environment unlike police officers. We are taught "proper" techniques but things rarely go how they go in the classroom, if it did we would not see these problems.

You realize that making that analogy is like 99% of what people are protesting, right? Of course "non-compliance" is enough to go hands on in a locked environment...but there are some pretty serious civil rights issues with treating certain neighborhoods like they're open air prisons.
 

IrishinSyria

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This whole controversy has reminded me a lot of when the Army adopted the Counter-Insurgency Field Manual in Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot of the grunts hated it. At its core, they were being asked (ordered) to give up their tactical advantage in very dangerous situations. Don't point your gun at people, don't shoot unless you're being shot at, don't kill unless it's absolutely necessary, smile and eat with a person you know is going to plant bombs and try to kill you... Troops hated it. It went against everything they'd been taught. Importantly, it also cost people their lives. In those tense, dangerous environments, being slow to resort to lethal force can absolutely get you killed.

However... if you looked at the policy from a different angle, it saved lives and advanced American interests. At the tactical level, it is always right to use overwhelming force. That's how you win quickly, cleanly, and safely. At the macro/strategic level, you don't necessarily want your people winning every single fight- you want to reduce the number of fights. That's what really saves lives in the aggregate and whether you're talking police work or counterinsurgency, it's the end-state you want to get to. You can't build good relationships if you treat every encounter with a community as a potentially lethal situation.

Unfortunately, the macro level policies are never going to be 100% effective. There will always be violent people out there. A lot of the time, our cops and soldiers will be able to recognize this regardless of whether they're in traditional hard-charger mode or if they're playing a more friendly/COIN approved role. Once the initial ID of the situation is made, then under any regime they will respond in roughly the same way (nobody ever has argued that a cop can't or shouldn't shoot someone who is shooting a gun at them.) However, there will be a small subset of cases where the more passive approach means that the bad guy gains enough of a drop on the good guy that the good guy loses a fight (read: dies) that he could have won had he been more aggressive.

It sounds shitty to say that the optimal # of dead cops or soldiers =/ 0, but it's true. I think it's misleading to ask whether a cop's life is more valuable than a criminal's life (or a soldier v an insurgent), because that's only looking at one situation in a much larger pattern. The important point (from a macro level) is that we want our armed representatives on the ground acting in a way that reduces tensions, builds trust, and ultimately reduces violence. Unfortunately, the only way to achieve this is to ask (order) those representatives to -not- always use the maximum level of force, even if it's an appropriate tactical response to a potentially dangerous situation and there's a chance failing to do so gets them killed.
 
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L-cart ND-ana

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You realize that making that analogy is like 99% of what people are protesting, right? Of course "non-compliance" is enough to go hands on in a locked environment...but there are some pretty serious civil rights issues with treating certain neighborhoods like they're open air prisons.

My arguement is that police officers jobs are more dangerous, thus, they have more of an arguement to go hands on when there is non-compliance. That environment is not controlled and there are a million more things that can go wrong if there is non compliance.
 

dales5050

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Shockingly there is something between passive and aggressive, no one has said that he wasn't passive just that he wasn't agressive. What Garner did was not aggressive behavior it is pretty damn normal. His hands were up, how the Hell was he going to draw a weapon. Can his dick pull the trigger or something?

Here is the definition of aggressive.

Adjective characterized by or tending toward unprovoked offensives, attacks, invasions, or the like; militantly forward or menacing:

Have you watched the video? Here is a link..

It's obviously edited but....

  • Around :21 in you hear them ask for his ID.
  • Around :26 you hear them talk about 'taking him in'
  • Around :52 Garner says 'it stops today' and is essentially saying he is not going to be arrested anymore for

So for about an entire minute...the two officers calmly talk to Garner about what is happening and what is going to happen.

They then step up to do what they said they were going to do and he starts to resist arrest. Relevant Quote:

Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"​

That does not fit what Garner did, so how was he aggressive? or should I just take you word for it? Was he menacing? Was he attacking?

People keep saying that this was such a petty crime and why did it have to happen. Most then lead towards why did the police use so much force... But I don't see it that way. I ask..why did Garner resist arrest for something so small?

Well the answer is at the time of this incident, Garner was out on bail after being charged with illegally selling cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession and false impersonation.

Now even a small offense like this would be enough to revoke his bail. So even if THIS was just a small offense...it actually meant that he would be going to jail for it. This make it a much more intense situation for all.
 

phgreek

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to what are you referring with the terms "this" and "this thing"?

Lotta ignored Elephants in your room there doc?

It appears to me, through rhetoric, that certain leaders have made cops a viable target. Rather that means lowering the threshold for criminals to shoot, in a shoot or flee situation, or rather that means pointing whack jobs at cops to target them for execution. I BELIEVE THE WORDS AND ACTIONS OF "LEADERS" CONTRIBUTED TO, AND HAVE FAILED TO MITIGATE, A VERY BAD SITUATION FOR COPS!

Now I don't expect everyone to agree with the correlation I make, but that doesn't matter because the message in the media is this cop hate is a THING (this, this thing), that has a life still ongoing, and as long as leaders fail to remedy the perceptions and in some cases continue fanning the flames, the media will portray "normal" cop shootings as a national hate trend, and that will come with all the outrage and the copycats to keep it going as a THING...and the longer it goes the more likely we reach a place where irreparable harm is done...and I still think that is possible.
 

irishff1014

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With added security measures the said on the news this morning that the NYPD can't have both officers sitting in the car at the same time unless the car is driving.
 
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