Trump Presidency Round 2

BuaConstrictor

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I'm seeing the Susan Rice stuff now....apparently she told Zelensky to be "tough" and "push back".

Just to be clear here.... Zelensky correcting the historical record and pointing out all the times Putin has lied and gone back on ceasefire deals is considered too "tough" or too much of a "push back" for the president and vice president of the United States to continue acting like adults?

That's the latest angle?
 

BuaConstrictor

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Turning that last ten minutes into a shit throwing fest was entirely Zelenskyy’s choosing.
Really? JD Vance had no choice but to react the way he did? Trump had no other options to react the way he did? The "facts don't care about your feelings" people really got caught in their feelings by calmly being told a list of Putin's broken promises/deals.
 

TracyGraham

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I think the general shift in mindset is this:

After WWII, the United States reoriented its entire strategic instruments of national power (Diplomacy, Information, Military, Economics) to counter the Soviet Union who was hell bent on world domination and the overthrow of the previous democratic capitalist world order. We drastically expanded our military footprint and alliance network to directly counter this, and ended up in conflicts throughout the world. These conflicts threatened our national stability (ie: Vietnam), but the leaders of our nation viewed that risk of domestic instability as necessary to fight the Communist threat.

After the fall of the USSR, we found ourselves alone as the unquestioned leader of global affairs. European countries continued to shrink their militaries in response to the dissolution of the Soviet empire and generally deferred to US global leadership on maintaining the status quo. In order to achieve this maintenance of global status quo, we have had to expend tremendous resources and mingle in regional conflicts that time and time again have strategically worked against our interests (Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan).

We are now faced with a ballooning debt (that neither party is really interested in solving), domestic problems we can't afford to properly address (healthcare crisis, drug epidemic, massive immigration crisis), and allies who are (generally speaking) entirely too dependent on the US for their own protection and have no interest in seriously addressing the problem we face as the global hegemon. The American people are mostly disillusioned with the idea of maintaining this increasingly expensive and increasingly ineffective status as global hegemon and would prefer to focus on our regional hegemony and domestic issues.

The concept that the United States (or any country for that matter) should sacrifice their own blood and treasure for a regional conflict on the other side of the planet with ancillary implications on what is best for the American people is a less than a century old concept. We could either continue playing the global hegemony game past our prime and flame out in embarrassment or go out on our own terms without seeing a collapse of the Empire.


Is Russia invading Ukraine bad? Yeah it is. Should we condemn it? Yeah, and I disagree with the Trump administrations inability to state that as fact. Should we continue to sacrifice billions of dollars of our treasure to prolong a war that Ukraine cannot win? No, I don't think so.

Why is it our government’s responsibility to waste resources doing the job of other governments when we can’t afford our own citizen’s entitlement programs and myriad of other domestic issues? We’ve been charging our global policing bill on the credit card and we’re on the edge of becoming insolvent (if we haven’t already gone past the point of no return).
Do you think financial solvency is only possible if we ditch Ukraine? Is it really one or the
I used to wonder how Penn State fans could defend Paterno during the Sandusky stuff.

And then you realize politics is nothing more than team sports and a cult of personality and people will go down with the ship to protect their own side (and their own egos).

Our dealings with Ukraine over the last month and the “press conference” today is truly vile stuff. Embarrassing behavior from the leaders of our country.
It definitely bothers me as to why people that lean to the right(like me) defend Trump on this one. That is my biggest issue. I know there is nothing that can be done to stop Trump at this point. His admin has made their decision and there is no going back. I just don't get why people try to justify and defend it. IMO it is indefensible, but people still try to do the mental gymnastics to reconcile in their minds. Psychologists can probably learn a lot from studying this situation.
 

NDVirginia19

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Do you think financial solvency is only possible if we ditch Ukraine? Is it really one or the

It definitely bothers me as to why people that lean to the right(like me) defend Trump on this one. That is my biggest issue. I know there is nothing that can be done to stop Trump at this point. His admin has made their decision and there is no going back. I just don't get why people try to justify and defend it. IMO it is indefensible, but people still try to do the mental gymnastics to reconcile in their minds. Psychologists can probably learn a lot from studying this situation.
what’s the other logical option? What’s the alternative strategy? Putin is a deeply evil man driven by his own ego. You don’t negotiate with him by appealing to higher moral principles of what is good and right. I think it is completely defensible to try to get the best deal out of Putin you possibly can get given the realities of the political economies of both Russia and Ukraine at this point in time because it is not going to get better in Ukraine’s favor.
 

TorontoGold

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I don’t think it’s going to be graceful, but ostensibly on our terms.

What good is our soft power doing for us at home?
You serious Clark? Do you like cheap goods? Do you like having the American dollar being accepted currency all over the world? Do you you like the fact that every business who is significant has an office in the US? Do you like that American culture is seen as the standard in media? Do you think people at home benefit from being seen as “the standard”?

It’s incredibly foolish to just think “ya well what good did any of that influence have??”. The cherry on top is republicans trot out the “well we gotta take care of our people!”, ok well what great things are they going to get? Oh, you mean those homeless vets are still gunna get shafted? The homeless people that mattered for that split second are now just going to have to pull up their bootstraps?

A lot of the best things in our lives is from American soft power. You don’t get the great post 2010 economy from bombing the Middle East lol
 

BuaConstrictor

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You serious Clark? Do you like cheap goods? Do you like having the American dollar being accepted currency all over the world? Do you you like the fact that every business who is significant has an office in the US? Do you like that American culture is seen as the standard in media? Do you think people at home benefit from being seen as “the standard”?

It’s incredibly foolish to just think “ya well what good did any of that influence have??”. The cherry on top is republicans trot out the “well we gotta take care of our people!”, ok well what great things are they going to get? Oh, you mean those homeless vets are still gunna get shafted? The homeless people that mattered for that split second are now just going to have to pull up their bootstraps?

A lot of the best things in our lives is from American soft power. You don’t get the great post 2010 economy from bombing the Middle East lol
Economic and cultural imperialism. Do more of it.
 

TracyGraham

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what’s the other logical option? What’s the alternative strategy? Putin is a deeply evil man driven by his own ego. You don’t negotiate with him by appealing to higher moral principles of what is good and right. I think it is completely defensible to try to get the best deal out of Putin you possibly can get given the realities of the political economies of both Russia and Ukraine at this point in time because it is not going to get better in Ukraine’s favor.
I mean let's just call it like it is. It is not bankrupting us. Russia is not in the right here. We don't have to concoct a story of Ukraine as a group of Nazis or whatever. We all know exactly what happened. If something else happened, none of us are privy to any new info. If you have some super secret info on how Ukraine started the war, I'd love to hear it. IMO It's pretty black and white.
Honestly, it kinda makes me wonder if Trump really is on video getting peed on🤷‍♂️🥇🚿
I don't really want to argue because I don't see the point, but it's just kinda crazy to see people trying to justify pulling the rug out from Ukraine.Bad actors like Russia, Iran whoever only can understand the stick. I'm not a fan of enabling and it sets a crap precedence. If Ukraine wants to fight let them. Russia is not going to start ww3. They are not going to nuke us(I suppose there could be a tactical nuke in Ukraine but Ukraine knows what they are getting themselves into. They are clearly willing to die to stop Russia). These are just lies we tell ourselves. Sanctioning the fuck out of them and standing up to them is the only option imo(note when I say stand up it does not mean the US should fight).
 
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GATTACA!

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We’re in debt mostly because entitlements, but also because our form of government lends itself to spending ourselves into insolvency. Our military budget is actually insufficient for what our national strategy states its purpose is - to fight two great powers wars at once. I’m all for slashing defense spending, but you can’t do that unless you drastically shift the direction of our national strategic footprint in the world. If you cut spending without disengaging from our duties as the global hegemon, we are doomed to fail.
Eliminate all entitlement programs and replace them with a flat UBI.

Universal Healthcare. Cut out the cock sucking insurance companies and save $450 billion per year alone.
 

Gladiator

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You serious Clark? Do you like cheap goods? Do you like having the American dollar being accepted currency all over the world? Do you you like the fact that every business who is significant has an office in the US? Do you like that American culture is seen as the standard in media? Do you think people at home benefit from being seen as “the standard”?

It’s incredibly foolish to just think “ya well what good did any of that influence have??”. The cherry on top is republicans trot out the “well we gotta take care of our people!”, ok well what great things are they going to get? Oh, you mean those homeless vets are still gunna get shafted? The homeless people that mattered for that split second are now just going to have to pull up their bootstraps?

A lot of the best things in our lives is from American soft power. You don’t get the great post 2010 economy from bombing the Middle East lol
That was an Obama phrase along with Plumber Joe. Soft power? That's the most liberal thing I've read in my entire life.
 

GATTACA!

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You serious Clark? Do you like cheap goods? Do you like having the American dollar being accepted currency all over the world? Do you you like the fact that every business who is significant has an office in the US? Do you like that American culture is seen as the standard in media? Do you think people at home benefit from being seen as “the standard”?

It’s incredibly foolish to just think “ya well what good did any of that influence have??”. The cherry on top is republicans trot out the “well we gotta take care of our people!”, ok well what great things are they going to get? Oh, you mean those homeless vets are still gunna get shafted? The homeless people that mattered for that split second are now just going to have to pull up their bootstraps?

A lot of the best things in our lives is from American soft power. You don’t get the great post 2010 economy from bombing the Middle East lol
Truly bizarre to see the Make America Great Again crowd resign themselves to the end of American exceptionalism simply because there is no other justification for their cult leaders actions.

We're sacrificing our own global positioning because Trump is playing 6D chess!! Duh!!
 

Sea Turtle

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I love the schizophrenia of the right. On one hand..the meeting went perfectly fine up until the last 10 minutes when JD Vance decided to stop sucking in air like a dying fish through his fat mouth and chose to speak....which set this entire thing off.

Now..Susan Rice coached Zelensky to act like "that"...after a comment from Vance..that no one knew was coming? That's some 4D chess right there.


Are we also going to ignore Trump acting like a jackass toward Zelensky when they first shook hands when he arrived? Did Susan Rice coach that too?

I don't like how Trump and Vance.responded. You rip Zelenskys face off as soon as you're behind closed doors.

But you don't repeatedly interrupt POTUS in the oval office in front of the world.

Yes, Macron did.it. ONCE. They have a good relationship and even have this alpha handshake game they play. But even then, he smiled and touched his shoulder like 'im your buddy'.
 

BuaConstrictor

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Zelensky said mean things about the leader that invaded his country. Shocking.

Yes...Zelensky is the problem here..............

Hilariously, during Zelensky's response to Vance he literally says "God Bless now president Trump will stop him(Putin)"

 

BuaConstrictor

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Truly bizarre to see the Make America Great Again crowd resign themselves to the end of American exceptionalism simply because there is no other justification for their cult leaders actions.

We're sacrificing our own global positioning because Trump is playing 6D chess!! Duh!!
America first by.....making us not first anymore!
 

Gladiator

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Eliminate all entitlement programs and replace them with a flat UBI.

Universal Healthcare. Cut out the cock sucking insurance companies and save $450 billion per year alone.
Do you know what UBI would do to this country? Go on down to Brazil and the see what Bolsa Família, and Lulu did. See how that's working for them now. You can see remnants here in our Government from the covid pandemic. Most government employees don't know what an office looks like anymore. All you have to do Is call the number at Disasterassistance.gov ,and you'll know exactly what I'm saying.
UBI is nothing more than devastation to a country and those that work there.
I'm not stating the obvious from the news. I've been there recently, and nobody wants to work, It's turned into a socialist society. Kids are the ones hurt the most.
 

GATTACA!

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Do you know what UBI would do to this country? Go on down to Brazil and the see what Bolsa Família, and Lulu did. See how that's working for them now. You can see remnants here in our Government from the covid pandemic. Most government employees don't know what an office looks like anymore. All you have to do Is call the number at DisasterRelief.com, and you'll know exactly what I'm saying.
UBI is nothing more than devastation to a country and those that work there.
I'm not stating the obvious from the news. I've been there recently, and nobody wants to work, It's turned into a socialist society. Kids are the ones hurt the most.
I was told our government was all of useless employees wasting tax dollars in their pajamas. If UBI lets you eliminate a huge chunk of them that should be a positive.

The number of welfare enforcement and allocation staff you could eliminate alone would be staggering.
 

BuaConstrictor

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Sanctioning the fuck out of them and standing up to them is the only option imo
All this bellyaching from MAGA over the money being poured into Ukraine...well, it's not their fault we are giving them money. Russia invaded them causing all of this...why are we not demanding our money back from Russia? Why are we not sanctioning them? Why is the ONLY thing being talked about essentially the extortion of Ukrainian resources for more weapons/paying the money back?

Russia caused this. Shouldn't Russia be paying for this? Mexico paid for the wall!...right? Have those Russian oligarchs start cutting checks. Gold cards for all of them!
 
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Gladiator

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I was told our government was all of useless employees wasting tax dollars in their pajamas. If UBI lets you eliminate a huge chunk of them that should be a positive.
Call the FEMA number that I gave the website of. Disasterassistance.gov You'll hear what you're referring to.

UBI won't stop anything that matters. It'll just make people lazier and less employable than at any time in the history of anything.
Free money changes everything, for the absolute worst.
 
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GATTACA!

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All this bellyaching from MAGA over the money being poured into Ukraine...well, it's not their fault we are giving them money. Russia invaded them causing all of this...why are we not demanding our money back from Russia? Why are we not sanctioning them? Why is the ONLY thing being talked about essentially the extortion of Ukrainian resources for more weapons/paying the money back?

Russia caused this. Should Russia be paying for this? Mexico paid for the wall!...right? Have those Russian oligarchs start cutting checks. Gold cards for all of them!
Half of the frozen Russian assets are under US control. Liquidate them and pay ourselves back with a portion of it. Problem solved.
 

GATTACA!

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Call the FEMA number that I gave the website of. Disasterassistance.gov You'll hear what you're referring to.

UBI won't stop anything that matters. It'll just make people lazier and less employable than at any time in the history of anything.
Free money changes everything, for the absolute worst.
There are going to be massive swaths of unemployed people as AI expands to more and more industries.

Poor people on welfare already don't seek employment because of the negative effect of means testing. A standard floor would make some people lazy, but some people that now keep themselves from earning too much in order to preserve their "free money" would be able to add to their subsidized income without worry.

And again we're talking about reducing the deficit. This would reduce government spending on entitlements. If some people want to try and live off $14,000 per year good luck. I think you're greatly overestimating how many people would give up all their career ambitions for that pittance.

Edit: Also MAGA is constantly talking about the nuclear family. I actually agree on this topic. The ability for families to be single income is a huge cultural loss. UBI would make that a reality for a huge number of families. It's basically an impossibility in the current economic environment. Imagine the reduction in childcare costs. You would also see birthrates begin to rise again.
 

Gladiator

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There are going to be massive swaths of unemployed people as AI expands to more and more industries.

Poor people on welfare already don't seek employment because of the negative effect of means testing. A standard floor would make some people lazy, but some people that now keep themselves from earning too much in order to preserve their "free money" would be able to add to their subsidized income without worry.

And again we're talking about reducing the deficit. This would reduce government spending on entitlements. If some people want to try and live off $14,000 per year good luck. I think you're greatly overestimating how many people would give up all their career ambitions for that pittance.
It always starts this way. Just give a little, and It will help.
That's how SS started, but now there's SSI and It's been around for a long time, once a Dr says your a drunk/drug addict/mentally unstable/sociopath, etc. then it bleeds into our young generation, and the bleeding in low income areas Is enormous.
We already have a UBI and it's called SSI. That bleeds us tax payers enough and anyone can get a Dr's note. I could start the process tomorrow and I could get SSI within the year.
Are you sure you understand all the"UBI" benefits we already offer?
 

TracyGraham

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I just have to ask, for all the people saying we are going to have ww3 or Putin is going to launch a nuke, can you please expalin a logical scenario how you envision that playing out? You really think it is in Putin's best interest in the least to send a nuke to London or DC for example? I feel like this is about as unlikely of a scenario as there is. So the theory is that Russia is losing in their conquest of Ukraine so their solution is to fight the world and destroy themselves more??!! Surely that's gonna be the solution....
I get that it sounds scary and can cause hesitation until you ask yourself how in the hell does that make any sense.
 
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GATTACA!

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It always starts this way. Just give a little, and It will help.
That's how SS started, but now there's SSI and It's been around for a long time, once a Dr says your a drunk/drug addict/mentally unstable/sociopath, etc. then it bleeds into our young generation, and the bleeding in low income areas Is enormous.
We already have a UBI and it's called SSI. That bleeds us tax payers enough and anyone can get a Dr's note. I could start the process tomorrow and I could get SSI within the year.
Are you sure you understand all the"UBI" benefits we already offer?
Yes I'm proposing we eliminate all of them. There is no more gaming the system if every American is getting the same exact amount.
 

GATTACA!

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I just have to ask, for all the people saying we are going to have ww3 or Putin is going to launch a nuke, can you please expalin a logical scenario how you envision that playing out? You really think it is in Putin's best interest in the least to send a nuke to London or DC for example? I feel like this is about as unlikely of a scenario as there is. So the theory is that Russia is losing in their conquest of Ukraine so their solution is to fight the world and destroy themselves more??!!
I get that it sounds scary and can cause hesitation until you ask yourself how in the hell does that make any sense.
The Russian nuclear saber rattling is old hat at this point. They're never going to do it and with the amount of times they've threatened and not done shit when their red lines are crossed idk how anyone takes it seriously anymore.
 

TorontoGold

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That was an Obama phrase along with Plumber Joe. Soft power? That's the most liberal thing I've read in my entire life.
Soft power was literally a core concept of Ronald Reagan. Please do a modicum of reading of recent history. I know you want to seem like the enlightened one, Circa, but you cut this trope of being this truth seeker if you don’t grasp what soft power is.
 
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