Trump Presidency Round 2

TracyGraham

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But the problem with Ukraine (where it currently stands) is that they are virtually out of fighting age men. I know Zelensky tried to deny that today. Not surprising as it would be unwise for him to admit that publicly. Proceeding with the same game plan is not an option.

So what does that mean? The US would have to get more directly involved. Are we willing to send our boys to fight in Ukraine. Are we willing to start firing missiles directly at Russia?
I get it. I would never advocate for sending US troops. But, if Ukraine is running out and they want to fight on their own volition then who is to stop them? What intel do you have that says they are virtually running out, btw? Obviously if they run out, they run out. But it doesn't quite make logical sense. If they are almost out, then there is no hiding that. As far as I know, Zelensky is not asking for troops.
I actually don't understand the argument about them not having enough troops. If that is the case then we keep supplying them as long as they want to defend themselves and when they have lost too many then they surrender and we dont have to give them the dreaded $$ that the right seems to worry so much about.
 
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ab2cmiller

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Well, I can tell you what it doesn't/shouldn't mean....
1. That we side with Russia
2. That you treat the president of Ukraine like an enemy when he comes to visit.

Again, perhaps not addressing your mindset directly...but I find it disgusting in general that we are discussing what we need to do in order to hold Ukraine accountable for being invaded by Russia twice over the last decade...rather than..just...you know....holding Russia accountable for it all.
That's the easy part. I agree in principle. But unless we negotiate peace, that means it requires additional action on our part. That is the hard part. There is no easy answer. I don't think we should sending our boys over there to fight a war.
 

calvegas04

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That's the easy part. I agree in principle. But unless we negotiate peace, that means it requires additional action on our part. That is the hard part. There is no easy answer. I don't think we should sending our boys over there to fight a war.
We don't have to send our troops over there to fight, we have stock piles of weapons sitting and will be destroyed at some point. Send these weapons over and let them fight for their freedom.
 

BuaConstrictor

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Btw, call me a hypocrite but I'm 100% in favor of invading Mexico and fucking up all the cartels to put an end to the fentanyl issue once and for all.
If you at all have worries about immigration, a move like that and the further destabilization of Mexico really wouldn't help the immigration issue.

I'm in favor of a stronger involvement in tracking down, arresting, and prosecution of the cartels in Mexico. I think it needs to be part of a large-scale plan that involves us working with Mexico and provides economic/enforcement/political stabilization arms that address not only the current situation but simultaneously work to address the longer-term and larger societal issue that cause the cartels to be so powerful AND create the immigration conditions we see from Mexico to the US.

Lather rinse repeat for many parts of central and south America.
 

BuaConstrictor

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But unless we negotiate peace
I agree and I think that was a (major?) failing of the Biden Admin. Granted I think Putin was trying to delay anything he did until the 2024 election, but still, I don't think enough was done. Both sides have to want peace. I don't think Putin does...especially now.
 

ab2cmiller

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I'm not overly concerned with Russia attacking another country anytime even remotely soon after they've been pretty decimated in fighting this war.. Maybe that's a concern or not. I am more concerned about the signal it sends to China.
 

ab2cmiller

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Guys stop! You're hurting bobbyok's feelings!

Gotta give him a few hours to get his marching orders so he knows how he's supposed to reply to all of this.
Not sure why you need to try to provoke bobby in this situation. He's been laying pretty low as it relates to all the political talk.
 

Giddyup

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They are already drawing up impeachment papers on Z in Ukraine. Seriously
 

Giddyup

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Trump:"Right now, you are playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people," Trump said, over Zelenskyy. "You're gambling with World War III, and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people say they should have.

Leftists like to construe things I’ve noticed
 

GATTACA!

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Not sure why you need to try to provoke bobby in this situation. He's been laying pretty low as it relates to all the political talk.
He’s going around negging everyone like a bitch.

Don’t worry I’m sure snowflake has me blocked.
 

calvegas04

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Looking forward to next elections. If the dems roll out a non woke candidate I'll vote for them for the first time ever. If the Republicans roll out a non extremist like trump or vance I'll continue to vote Republican.
 

TracyGraham

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Trump:"Right now, you are playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people," Trump said, over Zelenskyy. "You're gambling with World War III, and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people say they should have.

Leftists like to construe things I’ve noticed
No one is starting ww3. Hw would that at all be in anyone's interest?? Why would Putin be so dumb? He is trying to make Russia more powerful, not end humanity. This is the worst argument for letting a powerful country take whatever the fuck they please.

I dont see how this ww3 argument is any different than people claiming Saddam was storing yellow cake uranium or whatever the fuck people claimed. It would not have been in his interest to use nukes against the world just as it wouldnt make any sense for Putin to use nukes against the world. It is just a scare tactic to the public for the admin to do what they want to do. Did you fall for the ruse that Saddam was stockpiling chemical weapons and nukes???
It's the oldest trick in the book for to convince the smoothbrains. If we don't stop Saddam, he's gonna blow up the world. If we stop Putin, he's gonna blow up the world.
 
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NDVirginia19

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Just trying to understand this mindset because it is clear this is the direction we are going. If other more powerful countries start invading weaker nations, will your stance always be to refrain from providing any defense? Don't see the point in arguing, just want to get a gauge for how people with your mindset are thinking. I personally don't see this as necessarily a "cold war unipolar" remnant. For me is a basic idea that sovereign countries might not always make the best decisions, but invasion by another country is off the table, and it is the duty of world leaders to stand up for them.
Initially when I see people with your mindset, it is incomprehensible, but I might be missing something. Surely you have a good reason to think like you do... I would love to be able to grasp it.
What i'm hearing is there is a bully trying to take someone's lunch money. Instead of helping them fight back, it seems the idea is to encourage them to give up a portion of their lunch money to stop the bullying.
I think the general shift in mindset is this:

After WWII, the United States reoriented its entire strategic instruments of national power (Diplomacy, Information, Military, Economics) to counter the Soviet Union who was hell bent on world domination and the overthrow of the previous democratic capitalist world order. We drastically expanded our military footprint and alliance network to directly counter this, and ended up in conflicts throughout the world. These conflicts threatened our national stability (ie: Vietnam), but the leaders of our nation viewed that risk of domestic instability as necessary to fight the Communist threat.

After the fall of the USSR, we found ourselves alone as the unquestioned leader of global affairs. European countries continued to shrink their militaries in response to the dissolution of the Soviet empire and generally deferred to US global leadership on maintaining the status quo. In order to achieve this maintenance of global status quo, we have had to expend tremendous resources and mingle in regional conflicts that time and time again have strategically worked against our interests (Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan).

We are now faced with a ballooning debt (that neither party is really interested in solving), domestic problems we can't afford to properly address (healthcare crisis, drug epidemic, massive immigration crisis), and allies who are (generally speaking) entirely too dependent on the US for their own protection and have no interest in seriously addressing the problem we face as the global hegemon. The American people are mostly disillusioned with the idea of maintaining this increasingly expensive and increasingly ineffective status as global hegemon and would prefer to focus on our regional hegemony and domestic issues.

The concept that the United States (or any country for that matter) should sacrifice their own blood and treasure for a regional conflict on the other side of the planet with ancillary implications on what is best for the American people is a less than a century old concept. We could either continue playing the global hegemony game past our prime and flame out in embarrassment or go out on our own terms without seeing a collapse of the Empire.


Is Russia invading Ukraine bad? Yeah it is. Should we condemn it? Yeah, and I disagree with the Trump administrations inability to state that as fact. Should we continue to sacrifice billions of dollars of our treasure to prolong a war that Ukraine cannot win? No, I don't think so.
 

GATTACA!

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Looking forward to next elections. If the dems roll out a non woke candidate I'll vote for them for the first time ever. If the Republicans roll out a non extremist like trump or vance I'll continue to vote Republican.
It will be Vance or Don Jr for sure.
 

TracyGraham

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Looking forward to next elections. If the dems roll out a non woke candidate I'll vote for them for the first time ever. If the Republicans roll out a non extremist like trump or vance I'll continue to vote Republican.
I don't get why there can't be a hybrid? Let's have a party that doesn't do goofy, DEI socialist nonsense while hamstringing our economy and also have a leader that doesn't tear down our institutions with a hatchet and sell their soul to Putin. They both suck badly in their current states.
 

BuaConstrictor

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The concept that the United States (or any country for that matter) should sacrifice their own blood and treasure for a regional conflict on the other side of the planet with ancillary implications on what is best for the American people is a less than a century old concept.
I mean, this isn't really true. To the extent we see it in the political sphere today? Sure...but even during our own revolution you had other countries intervening with money, troops, et al in order to obtain more power for themselves and "benefit" their own population.

In either case, I don't think that it being a "less than century old concept" has any bearing on if it is right or wrong. Just or injust. The entire reason this is even possible is because of advances in technology.

playing the global hegemony game past our prime
I think the issue is that we need to learn to play it better and with more intention/intelligence behind how we play it. I think removing ourselves from it, as we have in the past, only lends to more serious issues arising and eventually us having to step back in to prevent global economic collapse/upheaval.

would prefer to focus on our regional hegemony and domestic issues.
That's an incredibly myopic and idiotic worldview though. It ignores the reality that removing ourselves from the world stage would destabilize things internationally and that would have real and bad regional and domestic repercussions. It's not 1847 anymore.

I'm not of the mind that we need to be the world's policeman or anything, but I also think it's naive and flat out dumb for anyone to think we can just exit stage right from issues around the world to concentrate on "regional" and domestic" issues and that our exit from the stage wouldn't have catastrophic outcomes for those same regional domestic issue we choose to concentrate on and address.
 

TracyGraham

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I think the general shift in mindset is this:

After WWII, the United States reoriented its entire strategic instruments of national power (Diplomacy, Information, Military, Economics) to counter the Soviet Union who was hell bent on world domination and the overthrow of the previous democratic capitalist world order. We drastically expanded our military footprint and alliance network to directly counter this, and ended up in conflicts throughout the world. These conflicts threatened our national stability (ie: Vietnam), but the leaders of our nation viewed that risk of domestic instability as necessary to fight the Communist threat.

After the fall of the USSR, we found ourselves alone as the unquestioned leader of global affairs. European countries continued to shrink their militaries in response to the dissolution of the Soviet empire and generally deferred to US global leadership on maintaining the status quo. In order to achieve this maintenance of global status quo, we have had to expend tremendous resources and mingle in regional conflicts that time and time again have strategically worked against our interests (Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan).

We are now faced with a ballooning debt (that neither party is really interested in solving), domestic problems we can't afford to properly address (healthcare crisis, drug epidemic, massive immigration crisis), and allies who are (generally speaking) entirely too dependent on the US for their own protection and have no interest in seriously addressing the problem we face as the global hegemon. The American people are mostly disillusioned with the idea of maintaining this increasingly expensive and increasingly ineffective status as global hegemon and would prefer to focus on our regional hegemony and domestic issues.

The concept that the United States (or any country for that matter) should sacrifice their own blood and treasure for a regional conflict on the other side of the planet with ancillary implications on what is best for the American people is a less than a century old concept. We could either continue playing the global hegemony game past our prime and flame out in embarrassment or go out on our own terms without seeing a collapse of the Empire.


Is Russia invading Ukraine bad? Yeah it is. Should we condemn it? Yeah, and I disagree with the Trump administrations inability to state that as fact. Should we continue to sacrifice billions of dollars of our treasure to prolong a war that Ukraine cannot win? No, I don't think so.
I definitely understand your point and really respect such a thorough and thoughtful response.
 

Sea Turtle

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All these Europeans drinking cappuccino in coffee plazas and tgeir generous social benefits are just chomping at the bit to pick up a gun and go fight tge Russians.
 

NDVirginia19

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I mean, this isn't really true. To the extent we see it in the political sphere today? Sure...but even during our own revolution you had other countries intervening with money, troops, et al in order to obtain more power for themselves and "benefit" their own population.
How exactly did it turn out for the French regime that helped us out in the Revolution....

I think the issue is that we need to learn to play it better and with more intention/intelligence behind how we play it. I think removing ourselves from it, as we have in the past, only lends to more serious issues arising and eventually us having to step back in to prevent global economic collapse/upheaval.
I think there absolutely could be upheaval around the globe as the world order shifts. But our Government should be focused on what is best for Americans, not for the global community. If we reorient our military diplomacy and economy to disengage from our previous role, we will survive. It is incumbent on the rest of the governments in the world to provide their citizenry the military strength and economic development to maintain what is best for their citizens. It's not our problem to solve.

I know full well that ripping off the bandaid will be painful, and the vast majority of Americans who see global affairs the way I do don't realize that fact. We enjoy a great deal of domestic prosperity and cultural development from the role we play internationally. But eventually, the band's going to stop playing. I think it would be best to leave the show on our terms rather than react to our world order falling apart despite our intentions.
 
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