The Brian Kelly Thread

[Aerosmith777]

there's another rumour that kelly will be given an extension so scratch him off the list as well. FUCK!!!

They will be offering him an extension to try to keep him in Cincinnati, but the question is can that extension be competitive with what Notre Dame will/could offer him? I'd be shocked if he signed it before at least talking to Swarbrick to see what ND can do for him. And after that, if Cincinnati has the scratch to keep him, well, God bless 'em, but I'll be surprised...

 

[#41]

If ND wants him, he's coming. Thats all there is to it. The REAL question is, does ND want him. Doesn't sound like he's even been contacted yet, so its starting to look like ND doesn't think much of him.

I wouldn't be shocked at all either way. He's not the job-jumper people paint him out to be -- you don't spend ten years as head coach at GVSU if you're cut from the same ambition-level as Nick Saban. Most of his "wandering eye" stuff seems calculated to get things from Cincinnati as much as it seems born out of any real desire to jump ship.

There's other things too -- he has a family situation (which, out of respect for him, I won't repeat on a public board) that would certainly give him pause before up and leaving.

I don't think it's quite as simple as Brian Kelly sitting by the phone and waiting for ND to pop up on the caller ID. I think he'd probably go, but I don't know that it'd be as easy a decision as many people want it to be.

FWIW, though -- just because he hasn't been contacted doesn't mean anything. He's got a huge game coming on Saturday that has massive implications for the future of the program (especially if Texas chokes, which could put Cincinnati into the NCG). I'd actually hope Notre Dame would hold off on talking to him until after that game was done.

Also, I've heard through the grapevine that ND wasn't too thrilled with the background check on Kelly -- especially his role in the DeMarcus Graham murder when he was at CMU and the comments he made afterward. Also some rumblings that his politics rubbed people the wrong way.

We'll see, though.

 

[IrishInFl]

Who knows what could've happened, we'll never know because he doesn't stick around long enough.

He spent 10 years with solid but not great records at GVSU before finally getting them to a top level and then leaving before showing whether or not he can sustain that level as a coach. Even Ty Willingham can win 10 games as a coach, but was he able to sustain the success and build from it? No.

First of all, the doesn't stick around comment only applies to CMU as of right now. I think it's your assumption that Kelly is gone after this year. Second, like I typed earlier, that's all Kelly does is win, with the exception of one losing season at CMU, which had not been to a bowl game since 1994. Weis has not been too solid. His first two years were great, and I (like many others) was very excited. But then the downfall. Ty had poor recruiting classes that may have lead Weis into poor seasons. But Kelly does not use this as an excuse. The seniors which were Dantonio recruits are far lower rated players than that of Ty's. So is it at all plausible that Weis is just not that great of a payer developer?

 

[Bjvorek]

Im not saying that Kelly wouldn't have interest in the Notre Dame job, the question is whether or not what hes done at CMU or Cincy is a fluke. Once they reach the highest success he jumps ship to another job instead of at least sticking around to rebuild or reload after the success.

If Cincy goes undefeated this season, I would want to see what they do the following season where he graduates about 1/2 of the team. I would want to see how his recruits develop at Cincy and if he can get them back to the level he did this season.

I think a lot of the posters on this thread ought to go study up some more on Cincinnati before they comment. Over the past 10-15 years, can any one of you recall a time when Cincinnati was even considered for a top 25 ranking? Folks, this is about Leadership and developing a plan for the program and then getting everyone involved with the program (Administrators, fans, alumni, student body, coaches and ultimately the players) to immerse themselves into the plan and then try to execute as flawlessly as possible.

Brian Kelly developed a plan for Grand Valley and won 2 national championships. He developed a plan for CMU and turned that program around. Now, he has Cincinnati in the hunt for a BCS National Championship Game. If they beat Pitt and Texas loses to Nebraska, Cincy's victory over Pitt will likely be enough to vault them past TCU in the rankings. Combine that with either Florida or Alabama losing in their matchup this week and Cincinnati is playing for a national Championship...Again, this is very possible...Cincy beats Pitt and a nationally ranked Nebraska beats Texas and Cincy is playing for a title while the Irish sit at home with their fans bemoaning whether Kelly has what it takes to revive ND. He's accomplished substantially more at Cincy with far less talent than ND has achieved in a long time....it's about Leadership!

This will be the 2nd BCS Bowl Game in a row for Brian Kelly who, by the way, has the 2nd most wins in D1 over the past 3 seasons...second only to Mack Brown of Texas. When is the last time ND has played in consecutive BCS Bowl Games? When is the last time ND has been ranked in the top 5 at the end of a season? Kelly has taken a doormat program at Cincinnati and turned it into a strong program that now has strong support from the administration, the community, the alumni, the players etc....

Lastly, for those who question his ability to rebuild, if you knew anything about Cincy's program, you would know that he lost 10 of 11 defensive starters from last year's Orange Bowl team so he started from scratch on Defense. You should also know that 10 of the 11 Defensive starters on this year's team are underclassmen. Over 50% of his starting offense are underclassmen who will be returning next year.

As such, my question would be, why would Kelly want to come to ND? He's contending for a potential Nat'l Championship Game berth this year and he will have a preseason top 3 team returning next year with a great chance at a national title...why in the world would he want to have to deal with all the nonsense that would go along with bringing this doormat program back from the dead?

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

That's not totally fair, he stayed at GVSU for 13 years. And he's been at Cincinatti for 4 years now, meaning the Juniors at least are all his players, and the seniors have only known him as their coach even though he's not the guy who recruited a lot of them. And to be fair, (and I know you hate this comparison, but its the truth) the exact same thing was said of Urban Meyer before he left for Florida....

Hes been at Cincinatti for 3 seasons exactly, but looking at the Cincinatti roster their best players are each seniors recruited and coached under Dantonio for 1 season. When Kelly took over the entire recruiting class left to him were Dantonio's guys recruited to Cincy.

The same thing was said of Meyer, I agree. But Brian Kelly is not Urban Meyer, and Urban Meyer is at Florida.

Now wait just a minute. The only reason that was his last non-head coaching job is because he became the head coach and has been so good at it he's never HAD to accept a job as a coordinator anywhere since! So now we're going to actually hold his success at what he does against him???

Im not holding his sucess going from DC at GVSU to HC against him, but being a HC at D2 does not mean you're not too good to accept a coordinator job at a BCS school. It means an opportunity was never offered, or he chose to remain a HC in D2 than become an assistant in D1.

If producing quarterbacks who win and perform at a high level when they play does not make you a legitimate QB guru, what does exactly? If being able to reach down on your bench when Tony Pike goes down and produce Zach Collaros like a rabbit out of a hat means nothing, then I'm not sure what we should use as a criteria to find the next coach.

When did plugging QB's into a system make him a QB guru?
Im not saying that it isn't luck to have a back-up capable of starting, but I don't consider that to make him a QB guru.

Heck, Zach Frazer is one of the better QB's in the Big East and he couldn't even sniff 3rd string at Notre Dame. Should I give Randy Edsall credit?

My whole point in bringing up Kragthorpe to point out that yes, I'm admitting, hiring a hot head coach at a mid major doesn't alway work out. Not sure what your point here is.

The Meyer reference though it to show that sometimes it does. Now, if your point is that they shouldn't go after Kelly because we are now going to compare Kelly's record as an assistant (which he hasn't been since 1990) to Meyer's to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense for this reason, which I touched on earlier. Kelly hasn't been an assistant in a long time because he took a different path than Meyer. He got an opportunity to be a head coach at GVSU at a much younger age than Meyer got his first shot at head coaching, at Bowling Green. And Kelly stayed there for over a decade and was so good at it, he ended up getting a Div-I job at Central Michigan. Then he succeeded there so much in 3 years, he moved up again to a BCS Conference program. Now he's been there for 4 years as head coach. His record as an assistant is now meaningless to me, just as Urban Meyer's was to Florida. Florida did not hire Meyer because he was the receivers coach at Notre Dame from 1996-2000, they hired him for the job he did as a head coach at Utah and Bowling Green before that. Which is the same reason ND will hire Kelly, if they do.

Agree to disagree.

His track record at GVSU is meaningless, its meaningless enough that even after winning a NC at GVSU the only job offered to him was a Central Michigan job.

If you believe his work at GVSU is so amazing, why not hire Chuck Martin? He took over for Brian Kelly at GVSU and is now 71-6.

 

[Aerosmith777]

Hes been at Cincinatti for 3 seasons exactly, but looking at the Cincinatti roster their best players are each seniors recruited and coached under Dantonio for 1 season. When Kelly took over the entire recruiting class left to him were Dantonio's guys recruited to Cincy.

The same thing was said of Meyer, I agree. But Brian Kelly is not Urban Meyer, and Urban Meyer is at Florida.

That's true, he only coached the bowl game that first year. But still, the seniors have been his for 3 years now. Do you really credit their success to 1 year under Dantonio as true freshmen or the past 3 under Kelly?

Im not holding his sucess going from DC at GVSU to HC against him, but being a HC at D2 does not mean you're not too good to accept a coordinator job at a BCS school. It means an opportunity was never offered, or he chose to remain a HC in D2 than become an assistant in D1.

I disagree. Being a head coach in D2 is absolutely a step up from being a coordinator in D1 imo. I tend to believe that he chose to remain a HC rather than become an assistant, and I do not fault him for it.

When did plugging QB's into a system make him a QB guru?
Im not saying that it isn't luck to have a back-up capable of starting, but I don't consider that to make him a QB guru.

Heck, Zach Frazer is one of the better QB's in the Big East and he couldn't even sniff 3rd string at Notre Dame. Should I give Randy Edsall credit?

You still haven't answered the question of what does make someone a QB guru, other than producing QBs who win and perform at a high level? Kelly has now played with and won with 3 different QBs in his short time at Cincinnati. I don't know what more he can do to prove he's capable of coaching up QBs.

Agree to disagree.

His track record at GVSU is meaningless, its meaningless enough that even after winning a NC at GVSU the only job offered to him was a Central Michigan job.

If you believe his work at GVSU is so amazing, why not hire Chuck Martin? He took over for Brian Kelly at GVSU and is now 71-6.

When Chuck Martin goes on to win at 2 different D1 programs, winning a BCS conference championship at one and being on the verge of a second, then yes, I would consider him a viable head coaching candidate for Notre Dame, probably even bigger than Kelly. But he hasn't done that yet. I never said Kelly's record at GVSU alone is what qualifies him, but it does count for something imo.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

First of all, the doesn't stick around comment only applies to CMU as of right now. I think it's your assumption that Kelly is gone after this year. Second, like I typed earlier, that's all Kelly does is win, with the exception of one losing season at CMU, which had not been to a bowl game since 1994. Weis has not been too solid. His first two years were great, and I (like many others) was very excited. But then the downfall. Ty had poor recruiting classes that may have lead Weis into poor seasons. But Kelly does not use this as an excuse. The seniors which were Dantonio recruits are far lower rated players than that of Ty's. So is it at all plausible that Weis is just not that great of a payer developer?

I am a Notre Dame fan, I don't sit around and look at 6-5 and 7-4 seasons in D2 as being successful. If you're a coach in D2 I'd be interested if they were running a dominant program like Martin is at GVSU however it took Kelly 10 years to finally have a 10 win season.

Ty's recruiting classes are responsible for Weis' 10 win seasons, and also his 3-9 season.

The seniors currently which were Dantonio recruits, and so were the 8 drafted in the last 2 years. I could care less about their rating coming out of HS, the fact that a coach at a program like Cincinatti could recruit into his program 10 or more low rated recruits that turned out to become NFL draft picks is a feat in itself.

 

[BCSorBust]

Why do you think Martin is having success? He was groomed and taught by Kelly. Oh and Martin didn't have to build a program at GVSU. They used to be a unimportant D3 school which you admitted in an earlier post. I guess they became the premiere program in D2 by magic and Kelly had nothing to do with it. You can't hold the mediocre seasons (while he was building a program mind you) against Kelly at a D2 school without also giving him just as much credit for the great seasons.

The important thing isn't Cincy recruiting those kids. The important thing may be Kelly developing them. You choose to look at what you want to look at and not acknowledge a different possibility. We acknowledge the possibility that Kelly might fail at ND even worse than Charlie - though Charlie does have a historic amount of losses in the last 3 years (can't blame them all on Ty). How can you not acknowledge that Kelly may not be much more successful than him?

 

[IrishInFl]

I am a Notre Dame fan, I don't sit around and look at 6-5 and 7-4 seasons in D2 as being successful. If you're a coach in D2 I'd be interested if they were running a dominant program like Martin is at GVSU however it took Kelly 10 years to finally have a 10 win season.

Ty's recruiting classes are responsible for Weis' 10 win seasons, and also his 3-9 season.

The seniors currently which were Dantonio recruits, and so were the 8 drafted in the last 2 years. I could care less about their rating coming out of HS, the fact that a coach at a program like Cincinatti could recruit into his program 10 or more low rated recruits that turned out to become NFL draft picks is a feat in itself.

So, you do care about Ty's last class not being developed well, but do care about Dantonio's class, which was poorly ranked? So your argument is really that Kelly was better at developing less talented players than Weis?

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

I wouldn't be shocked at all either way.

I understand you're really high on your program. I think thats great. But I do think you are deluding yourself somewhat. The likelihood is that the Cincy program, like many non-traditional football schools that have had a nice coach pass through, will end up bottoming out again.

Ask Kansas State, Arizona, SMU, Iowa State, Louisville - they all had nice runs at points over the last 30 years, but couldn't sustain. Regrettably, thats the future of the Cincinatti program. If you REALLY think any coach in their right mind, when given a choice, would choose Cincy over ND, thats just an emotional response. Its not realistic. If Kelly is at Cincy next week, its because ND didn't want him.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

That's true, he only coached the bowl game that first year. But still, the seniors have been his for 3 years now. Do you really credit their success to 1 year under Dantonio as true freshmen or the past 3 under Kelly?

I credit their success specifically for them alone, how rare is it to find a coach identify 10 players not highly ranked out of HS and then they become NFL draft picks. I have reason to believe a guy like Gilyard was always more talented than someone like Richard Jackson, the thing is Gilyard went overlooked.

I disagree. Being a head coach in D2 is absolutely a step up from being a coordinator in D1 imo. I tend to believe that he chose to remain a HC rather than become an assistant, and I do not fault him for it.

FBS HC
FBS assistants > FCS Head Coach
FCS assistants > D2 Head Coach

I think you're missing the point that theres a clear difference in prestige from being the Linebackers Coach at a USC or Texas than being the HC of Lenoir-Rhyne(another D2 school).

For you to believe that going from a BCS program as an assistant to becoming the HC of Western New Mexico(another D2 school) is a step up is pretty off base.

You still haven't answered the question of what does make someone a QB guru, other than producing QBs who win and perform at a high level. Kelly has now played with and won with 3 different QBs in his short time at Cincinnati. I don't know what more he can do to prove he's capable of coaching up QBs.

What do you mean by hes won with 3 different QBs?
Hes won a game, sure.
Hes won a Big East Championship with 3 different QBs, in 3 consecutive years? No.

When Chuck Martin goes on to win at 2 different D1 programs, winning a BCS conference championship at one and being on the verge of a second, then yes, I would consider him a viable head coaching candidate for Notre Dame, probably even bigger than Kelly. But he hasn't done that yet. I never said Kelly's record at GVSU alone is what qualifies him, but it does count for something imo.

Thats good to know, so along with Brian Kelly. Larry Coker, Paul Pasqualoni, and Walt Harris are viable candidates for Notre Dame aswell. Considering each have won atleast 1 BCS conference championship, in the Big East.

Whats the difference?

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

So, you do care about Ty's last class not being developed well, but do care about Dantonio's class, which was poorly ranked? So your argument is really that Kelly was better at developing less talented players than Weis?

Ty's last class wasn't developed well simply because there was not much of any talent in it.

And the 3-9 season isn't solely due to Ty's players, it also has a lot to do with the youth of the team at the time.

 

[#41]

I understand you're really high on your program. I think thats great. But I do think you are deluding yourself somewhat. The likelihood is that the Cincy program, like many non-traditional football schools that have had a nice coach pass through, will end up bottoming out again.

Ask Kansas State, Arizona, SMU, Iowa State, Louisville - they all had nice runs at points over the last 30 years, but couldn't sustain. Regrettably, thats the future of the Cincinatti program. If you REALLY think any coach in their right mind, when given a choice, would choose Cincy over ND, thats just an emotional response. Its not realistic. If Kelly is at Cincy next week, its because ND didn't want him.

I'll admit to a certain degree of bias, but there are plenty of reasons not to take the Notre Dame job -- a billion reasons TO take it too, for that matter. Frankly, it'd be just as delusional to claim the contrary. It's a tough place to be successful at, a fact belied by the difficulty that everyone in recent memory has had at the program. You can't beat the pagentry and history behind coaching there, but you'll probably stay sane a lot longer outside the lights of South Bend.

And, there's a name you can add to your list -- Virginia Tech. Program was nothing before Frank Beamer came to Blacksburg and has been hovering in the Top-20 ever since (played for the National Title a few years back too). Beamer had no ties to VT and passed up numerous opportunities to go elsewhere.

There's too much certainty in what you say. It's a fluid situation. Is it likely Brian Kelly will stay at Cincinnati long-term? Probably not. Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it likely that Cincinnati will sustain long-term success as a program? Probably not. Is it possible? Absolutely. Would most people turn down the Notre Dame job? Probably not. Is it possible? Absolutely.

We're all just waiting and seeing, at this point.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

I understand you're really high on your program. I think thats great. But I do think you are deluding yourself somewhat. The likelihood is that the Cincy program, like many non-traditional football schools that have had a nice coach pass through, will end up bottoming out again.

Ask Kansas State, Arizona, SMU, Iowa State, Louisville - they all had nice runs at points over the last 30 years, but couldn't sustain. Regrettably, thats the future of the Cincinatti program. If you REALLY think any coach in their right mind, when given a choice, would choose Cincy over ND, thats just an emotional response. Its not realistic. If Kelly is at Cincy next week, its because ND didn't want him.

When did Iowa State have a run?

SMU got the Death Penalty, and now they're on their way back with June Jones.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

When did Iowa State have a run?

I dunno, sometime in the late 90's or early 2000's they were in a Big 12 Championship game, were they not? I remember a Seneca Wallace team being pretty good.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

Why do you think Martin is having success? He was groomed and taught by Kelly. Oh and Martin didn't have to build a program at GVSU. They used to be a unimportant D3 school which you admitted in an earlier post. I guess they became the premiere program in D2 by magic and Kelly had nothing to do with it. You can't hold the mediocre seasons (while he was building a program mind you) against Kelly at a D2 school without also giving him just as much credit for the great seasons.

Martin didn't have to build the GVSU program, however you can't take away what hes done after Kelly left with his own players and consistent level of success that Kelly never reached. Its like comparing Cooper to Tressel.

I never said his seasons at GVSU were mediocre, however when they finally reached success as in on the National level, he bolted for CMU. He shouldn't of stuck around, but its been the path of his career throughout and everybody who replaces him then does better than him. He builds the wall, and tells the next man to build the support to keep it up. Thats great in terms of a school where you're replacing a legend, but Charlie did better than Ty when he replaced him. It didn't mean jack squat.

The important thing isn't Cincy recruiting those kids. The important thing may be Kelly developing them. You choose to look at what you want to look at and not acknowledge a different possibility. We acknowledge the possibility that Kelly might fail at ND even worse than Charlie - though Charlie does have a historic amount of losses in the last 3 years (can't blame them all on Ty). How can you not acknowledge that Kelly may not be much more successful than him?

Not sure what you're talking about.

I am a firm believer in that there are guys who come into college better than everyone else, the problem is people base their entire opinions of a players talent on their ranking from HS. If Gilyard or Pike were rated as 5 star players going to Cincy, how much credit would Kelly be given for their current success? Not much because the belief is they were already good anyways. If Gilyard or Pike were rated as 5 star players going to Cincy, and they ended up becoming backups, how much credit would Kelly be given to their failure? A lot considering they were highly rated and didn't live up to the hype.

I give more credit to the guy who found the diamond in the rough than the guy who's job was to keep it polished. I give all the credit to the guy who found the diamond in the rough, and then polished it.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

I dunno, sometime in the late 90's or early 2000's they were in a Big 12 Championship game, were they not? I remember a Seneca Wallace team being pretty good.

They had some decent 7-5 seasons, but they were never in a Big 12 Championship game.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

They had some decent 7-5 seasons, but they were never in a Big 12 Championship game.

Ok, you're going to make me do some work. Come on man, its my day off, I'm TRYING to be lazy.

You're right, they never made a Big 12 title game. They do claim a share of 2004 North Division title, however. From 2000 - 2005 they had four 7 win seasons, and one 9 win season. Thats a pretty solid run for Iowa State football. I stand by my statement.

 

[nd1]

the main difference in c w and kelly is that kelly knows how to win football games. i really don;t care who they get to coach as long as he wins games and keeps the tradition at nd. everyone thinks u have to get stoops or myer but there are really good coaches at lesser schools that know how to coach and win football games.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

Ok, you're going to make me do some work. Come on man, its my day off, I'm TRYING to be lazy.

You're right, they never made a Big 12 title game. They do claim a share of 2004 North Division title, however. From 2000 - 2005 they had four 7 win seasons, and one 9 win season. Thats a pretty solid run for Iowa State football. I stand by my statement.

What do you consider a 5 year run with two 10 win seasons, two 7 win seasons, and one losing season?

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

What do you consider a 5 year run with two 10 win seasons, two 7 win seasons, and one losing season?

Depends on the School. For Iowa State, that would be fantastic.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

Depends on the School. For Iowa State, that would be fantastic.

Would that then give the coach a viable candidacy for Notre Dame?

 

[Aerosmith777]

FBS HC
FBS assistants > FCS Head Coach
FCS assistants > D2 Head Coach

I think you're missing the point that theres a clear difference in prestige from being the Linebackers Coach at a USC or Texas than being the HC of Lenoir-Rhyne(another D2 school).

For you to believe that going from a BCS program as an assistant to becoming the HC of Western New Mexico(another D2 school) is a step up is pretty off base.

So says you. If that were true, why did Jim Tressel ever take the job of being head coach at Youngstown State?

What do you mean by hes won with 3 different QBs?
Hes won a game, sure.
Hes won a Big East Championship with 3 different QBs, in 3 consecutive years? No.

I never said anything about 3 consecutive Big East Championships. I said he won, as in multiple games. He's won with Tony Pike, Zach Collaros, and Ben Mauk now. Granted the Collaros sample size is relatively small at only 4 starts, but he won all 4 of them. And played pretty well to boot.

Thats good to know, so along with Brian Kelly. Larry Coker, Paul Pasqualoni, and Walt Harris are viable candidates for Notre Dame aswell. Considering each have won atleast 1 BCS conference championship, in the Big East.

Whats the difference?

The difference is those other guys have already gotten their shot at premier programs and failed. Brian Kelly hasn't. He just as well could be the next Urban Meyer or Jim Tressel as he could be one of those guys. & I'm not saying he won't turn out like them, but what I am saying he certainly has done nothing yet to lead me to believe he will.

Listen, what this whole argument boils down to is this: Notre Dame has fired Charlie Weis. That's it. He's not coming back. Someone has to coach the team next year, and for the foreseeable future. Now, I think we can all agree if possible we'd prefer to have someone like Stoops or Meyer. But in the likely event that that doesn't happen we have to look at what's left. Your argument seems to be that you'd rather have a BCS assistant w/ no head coaching experience because all the top coaches out there have BCS assistant experience. While I'll grant that's true of all the ones I can think of off the top of my head (i.e. Stoops, Meyer, Carroll, Tressel, Saban, Miles, & Brown), almost all of them have something else in common: Except for Stoops, they have ALL been head coaches before their current stop either in D1 or the NFL. So their success is just as easily attributed to their experience as head coaches as it is their experience as assistants. In fact, imo, its at lot more attributed to their head coaching experience. Hence, if they have to hire someone for whom ND is a step up from their current job in terms of prestige (unlike the likes of Stoops and Meyer), I'll take a guy w/ 20 years head coaching experience, the last 7 of it D1 and almost all of it winning than a guy w/ no head coaching experience but plenty of experience as a BCS assistant.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

Would that then give the coach a viable candidacy for Notre Dame?

What? Is your question "If the HC at Iowa State had the same record as Charlie Weis at ND, would you consider him for the ND job?"

I can't answer that question, it would depend on who the guy (or gal) was, the context of their record, and probably 100 other variables.

 

[dskoo65]

Martin didn't have to build the GVSU program, however you can't take away what hes done after Kelly left with his own players and consistent level of success that Kelly never reached.it.

what are you talking about? how much more success can you get?

Kelly took over as head coach in 1991. In kelly's final three seasons the Lakers went 41-2, at one point winning 20 consecutive games. The Lakers went 14-0 in 2002 en route to their first national title and went 14-1 in 2003 when they claimed their second National Championship. Kelly was named the AFCA Division II Coach of the Year after each of these championship years.

 

[jmurphy75]

I just don't understand replacing an offensive guru with an offensive guru. Kelly's teams are letting up a lot of points and are outscoring out opponents and ND is a TD away from doing that. It just seems like we'll have the same problems with Kelly. That is just my opinion.

Maybe Kelly will have better luck in who ever he brings in as DC, I mean Weis takes the fall for it all as HC, but Tenuta's D is what killed us all year.

 

[BCSorBust]

Martin didn't have to build the GVSU program, however you can't take away what hes done after Kelly left with his own players and consistent level of success that Kelly never reached. Its like comparing Cooper to Tressel.

I am a firm believer in that there are guys who come into college better than everyone else, the problem is people base their entire opinions of a players talent on their ranking from HS. If Gilyard or Pike were rated as 5 star players going to Cincy, how much credit would Kelly be given for their current success? Not much because the belief is they were already good anyways. If Gilyard or Pike were rated as 5 star players going to Cincy, and they ended up becoming backups, how much credit would Kelly be given to their failure? A lot considering they were highly rated and didn't live up to the hype.

I give more credit to the guy who found the diamond in the rough than the guy who's job was to keep it polished. I give all the credit to the guy who found the diamond in the rough, and then polished it.

First, I wasn't taking away what Martin has done. Like I said before my brother is an offensive lineman for Martin right now and just beat Minn-Duluth and I couldn't be more excited and impressed with Martin. Kelly won 2 championships and Martin has won 2 with Kelly's kids and 1 with his own. How do you give credit to Martin but not Kelly? How do you think Martin learned how to be a head coach? I've spoken with him personally and he credits a lot of it to Kelly. You should have heard him talk about Kelly when Kelly was inducted into the GVSU hall of fame when Cincy was on a bye week.

For the second part, how do you know if they were diamond in the roughs or just developed well? Basically by what you are saying, Kelly doesn't develop anyone he has just happened into two straight great situations from historically poor football schools . . . quite the coincidences if you ask me. I think it is more reasonable to assume that Kelly is good at developing kids than it is to assume that everywhere he has gone there are diamond in the roughs waiting for him. If that's the case than one could assume that he will be able to develop the 4 and 5 stars too.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

So says you. If that were true, why did Jim Tressel ever take the job of being head coach at Youngstown State?

Youngstown State was a FCS(Div 1-AA) school, Tressel was an offensive assistant at OSU.

An assistant job at a BCS school is equal to a HC job in Div 1-AA not Division 2.

HC's at FCS chools are commonly brought in to be Offensive or Defensive Coordinators at FBS schools.

I never said anything about 3 consecutive Big East Championships. I said he won, as in multiple games. He's won with Tony Pike, Zach Collaros, and Ben Mauk now. Granted the Collaros sample size is relatively small at only 4 starts, but he won all 4 of them. And played pretty well to boot.

He won with 2 QB's. Throwing Collaros in there too prematurely dont ya think.

The difference is those other guys have already gotten their shot at premier programs and failed. Brian Kelly hasn't. He just as well could be the next Urban Meyer or Jim Tressel as he could be one of those guys. & I'm not saying he won't turn out like them, but what I am saying he certainly has done nothing yet to lead me to believe he will.

That doesn't even make any fcking sense.
Those guys had their success at Big East programs, just like Brian Kelly, and then failed after several years although they each won a Big East Championship during their tenure.

You were talking as if it was some sort of amazing feat for Brian Kelly to win a Big East Championship at Cincy, and thus deserving of consideration for the Notre Dame job. Then when I mentioned guys who had their run just like Kelly is having at Cincy, now you're backpeddling.

If winning the Big East is so important, lets go talk with Larry Coker, even he has a National Championship. You're telling me how great Brian Kelly is for what hes done with another coaches players, but Larry Coker won a NC and went to 3 BCS Bowl Games with Butch Davis' players. Thus Larry Coker is more successful and has developed more talent than Brian Kelly. So where is the thread on hiring Larry Coker?

Listen, what this whole argument boils down to is this: Notre Dame has fired Charlie Weis. That's it. He's not coming back. Someone has to coach the team next year, and for the foreseeable future.

OK.

Now, I think we can all agree if possible we'd prefer to have someone like Stoops or Meyer. But in the likely event that that doesn't happen we have to look at what's left. Your argument seems to be that you'd rather have a BCS assistant w/ no head coaching experience because all the top coaches out there have BCS assistant experience.

I'd rather have a young BCS assistant with potential than to hire a flavor of the month candidate as a knee jerk reaction due to pressure being put on us by ESPN to hire, specifically, Brian Kelly.

While I'll grant that's true of all the ones I can think of off the top of my head (i.e. Stoops, Meyer, Carroll, Tressel, Saban, Miles, & Brown), almost all of them have something else in common: Except for Stoops, they have ALL been head coaches before their current stop either in D1 or the NFL.

True, but each have been assistants at a BCS school. You're just adding on and trying to create a point that I wasnt even arguing.

Stick to what I said. All of the top coaches in college football have been assistants at a BCS school.

So their success is just as easily attributed to their experience as head coaches as it is their experience as assistants. In fact, imo, its at lot more attributed to their head coaching experience.

So you're telling me that the HC of Clark Atlanta University(a D2 school) is better adapted to become a HC at a BCS school than the DC of the Florida Gators?

You're smoking crack.

Hence, if they have to hire someone for whom ND is a step up from their current job in terms of prestige (unlike the likes of Stoops and Meyer), I'll take a guy w/ 20 years head coaching experience, the last 7 of it D1 and almost all of it winning than a guy w/ no head coaching experience but plenty of experience as a BCS assistant.

By that same logic we should take a strong look at Terry Bowden over a candidate like Charlie Strong.

 

[77domer]

As a head coach, Kelly has one losing record. This was his first year coaching at CMU, a team that had not been to a bowl game since 1994. Despite you claiming him not being a good recruiter, Kelly has brought in better classes (at least according to rivals) than his predecessors. He also is proven to develop players well. The best example that comes to mind is Joe Staley from CMU, whom later became a first round NFL draft pick. He came into a Cincinnati program with previous classes by Dantonio that were comprised of mostly 2* players, with a sprinkle of 3* players. He has developed these players well, like Mickens and Gilyard. The current recruiting classes (most likely due to success) is far superior than that of any of Dantonio's classes, comprising of mostly 3*, and a single 4*. The previous class was also better (according to rivals) than any class of Dantonio's.

As to why a d2 coach is assumed to be able to succeed, an example of a lower level coach making it in the big conferences is Jim Tressel. Tressel had success, including one national championship.

Now let us review Charlie Weis's head coaching college football success prior to Notre Dame... oh wait! He had no college football success! As far as I know, he also had no head coaching experience (I could be wrong on that).

Franklin (NJ) High head coach, 1989, State Champions.

(And no, I don't think that's sufficient qualification to be HC at ND. Didn't work for Faust, either.)

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

First, I wasn't taking away what Martin has done. Like I said before my brother is an offensive lineman for Martin right now and just beat Minn-Duluth and I couldn't be more excited and impressed with Martin. Kelly won 2 championships and Martin has won 2 with Kelly's kids and 1 with his own. How do you give credit to Martin but not Kelly? How do you think Martin learned how to be a head coach? I've spoken with him personally and he credits a lot of it to Kelly. You should have heard him talk about Kelly when Kelly was inducted into the GVSU hall of fame when Cincy was on a bye week.

I give Martin the credit for taking the program to where its gone since Kelly left. The fact that hes still able to sustain success with his own players now in the program gives him credit in my book.

For the second part, how do you know if they were diamond in the roughs or just developed well? Basically by what you are saying, Kelly doesn't develop anyone he has just happened into two straight great situations from historically poor football schools . . . quite the coincidences if you ask me. I think it is more reasonable to assume that Kelly is good at developing kids than it is to assume that everywhere he has gone there are diamond in the roughs waiting for him. If that's the case than one could assume that he will be able to develop the 4 and 5 stars too.

Lets see how he can develop a player he actually recruits and can stick around until they graduate. That is whats more telling then whether or not he can develop guys who may have already been good, but he didn't recruit.

Since I just gave credit to Kelly for putting the pieces in place for CMU's success by bringing the talent in there for Butch Jones to coach, who other than Dan LeFevour was a good recruit by Kelly?

So let me get this straight, there currently is only 1 player on CMU's roster with NFL potential and that is Dan LeFevour, although Kelly's last class was of 25 players yet none of them happened to be diamonds in the rough for Butch Jones to coach up. However Butch Jones' teams have been better than Brian Kelly's teams at CMU.

Does this mean Brian Kelly's recruits weren't that good at CMU or is it that Butch Jones hasn't properly developed the talent left by Kelly?