Relax on Weis

[IrishRamMan10]

joined october of 06 and now makin 1st post.... DAMN! you must have ticked this fool off or somethin

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

LOL

That's what I was thinking! I'd give ya reps, but my rep button isn't working.

 

[kmoose]

The upside to kicking the FG is if you make it you go ahead by 3 and probably win since it takes Navy more than a few minutes to work down the field to get in field goal range or score a TD. The downside to missing the FG is you turn the ball over.

The downside to not making it on 4th down is you turn the ball over and give Navy a huge confidence boost. You then go to OT, where Navy is more likely to grind out 25 yards than ND. The best you can do by making it on 4th down (assuming you don't get in the endzone) is gurantee you have to successfully run more plays before you win; getting the first down it's still tied. So even if they make it, there's no guarantee they don't turn the ball over on the next play or miss the closer field goal. More plays equals more risk and more opportunity for error.

We could not be more in agreement on this. As I said, I think the decision NOT to at least try the FG was a TERRIBLE one.

 

[KittnertoLloyd]

I don't know why it says that was my first post. I definitely posted in the Arrelious Benn, Martez Wilson, and Robert Hughes thread on the recruiting board last year. I haven't been here for a while though.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I agree w/ you Kmoose, but we can't let one game destroy the faith. CW has a million more things riding on the game than we do. I say give him another year of faith and confidence, and at that point, if we look crappy, you won't be the only voice heard. Hopefully, that won't be the case, and we can all overlook this awful season. If it does happen, God help ND, CW, and all of us.
Let's stay positive for now.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I don't know why it says that was my first post. I definitely posted in the Arrelious Benn, Martez Wilson, and Robert Hughes thread on the recruiting board last year. I haven't been here for a while though.

It's ok, I post stuff on ND on the (I think only) Cincinnati Bearcat forum. I'm sure they love me there. LOL
But I don't let them get away with deriding my team, and spouting off things heard from the genius's at tESPN.
I give you credit.

 

[IrishFan4Life]

Im with the irish till the end of time.

 

[IrishFan4Life]

If you cut me, my blood will be navy blue and gold

 

[IrishRamMan10]

he prolly posted in those threads that NY deleted...

 

[marv81s]

1) All reports from people on this board who went to the game said there really wasn't that much wind if at all.
2) Weis said in his presser he would have tried the kick from the 20 but not the 24. 13-1/2 feet closer the kicker would have made it? Plus, if the wind was really that strong, he would have wanted to be a lot closer than 13-1/2 feet. Our kickers have shown distance is not really their problem, it's accuracy.
3) What about our offense thinks they could pickup 15 yards on one play with Evan Sharpley running the ball (the 4th and 15 fake field goal)???
4) What about our offense makes you think they could pick up 8 yards on a do or die play?

I think the likelihood of making a field goal was just as equal as getting a first down on the 4th and 8 play and was more likely than Evan Sharpley running for 15 yards on the 4th and 15 play.

1 & 2) There was a stiff wind, all the people I know that were at the game, and some co-workers, and the writers from blue and gold illustrated said there was a stiff wind and that both kickers were missing badly during warm ups and Walker told Weis that he would feel more comfortable kicking inside of 40 yards, hence why Weis wanted to get 4 more yards. Even Walker wasn't comfortble with that kick, and you want to throw out a kicker that has no confidence in himself. Especially when he missed a 35 yarder earlier in the game with the wind at his back and who is 1-6 so far this season beyond 40 yards?

3) Didn't agree with that call either, so no arguement there

4) did you miss the 4th down conversion earlier in the drive and throughout the game and/or the way the offense was moving the ball in general. The Navy defender made one helluva play to sack Sharpley, if anything AA should have ran up to meet that guy rather than try to dive at him and chop him down, but it was a heck of a play.


I am just going to trust Weis's judgement not to try and kick it because he sees these kickers everyday in practice and I am going to trust what I have heard from people about the way the kickers were missing the kicks in warm ups. Agree to disagree here, I'm moving on to Air Force, what's done is done

 

[marv81s]

Really? They did? Well I must have missed it. Please direct me to where ANYONE before this season wrote that we would be not just bad, but one of the worst teams in college football history. Please show me where someone predicted that our offense would look like the 3 blind mice dry-humping Hellen Keller.

You're missing the point Marv. The 1-8 record is the bright spot about this team, because at least in looking at the record alone you can't see how absolutely horribly we've played.

You must not subscribe to blue and gold illustrated because the writers on there, from O'leary, to Hayneworth, to Sapp all saw a terrible 2007 coming back when Weis was hired, up to 2 years ago they knew, as well as Poodle, Meyer knew that 2007 was going to be a big down year for ND. Why do you think Meyer didn't want the job?

This bad? No, but bad none the less.

 

[Timugen]

This bad? No, but bad none the less.

That's the point, and you're still missing it, even as you type it. This team isn't just 1-8. This team, week after week, doesn't even look like they deserve to be on the field. Once again.....as you yourself just said in your post....nobody saw us being THIS BAD. So when you claim that anyone who knows anything about football "saw this coming," I'll once again call bullshit.

There is a difference between having a "down year," which we did see coming, and having an historically bad, record-setting year, which we did not see coming.



EDIT: It's great to see you back on. I've missed the distraction of your avatars.

 

[Wham]

The downside to not making it on 4th down is you turn the ball over and give Navy a huge confidence boost. You then go to OT...

In between "turning the ball over" and "go to OT" I will add the fact that enough time still remained for Navy to score.

My first impression when they went for it at the end was "WHAT THE...?????", but in the back of my mind I was still aware of the time left on the clock. It was a gutsy call. He's a genius if they make it or he should be fired if they don't. Glad I was able to sit around and finish my beer while CW made a historic decision.

 

[Wham]

I'm trying to formulate a thought here, as it is my 300th post and I would like it to be memorable and compelling.

But the fact of the matter is I just can't stop staring at those magnificent yah-bows on Marv's avatar.

LOL. YOWZA!
I type a word, I look at the pic, I type a word, I look at the pic, I type a....

I wonder if she has a phone number. I would like to volunteer my hands...

 

[marv81s]

That's the point, and you're still missing it, even as you type it. This team isn't just 1-8. This team, week after week, doesn't even look like they deserve to be on the field. Once again.....as you yourself just said in your post....nobody saw us being THIS BAD. So when you claim that anyone who knows anything about football "saw this coming," I'll once again call bullshit.

There is a difference between having a "down year," which we did see coming, and having an historically bad, record-setting year, which we did not see coming.

EDIT: It's great to see you back on. I've missed the distraction of your avatars.

I am not missing the point Tim, I see it plain as day. My response to it is to put it bluntly, who gives a shit, we are 1-8, the stats don't really mean shit to me when you look at several factors.

1) who is getting the majority of playing time on offense and defense. Its an extremely young roster and to put it simply, its a high school all star team going against teams that are extremely experienced this year. Look at ND's first 8 opponents and look at how many returning starters they had and how experienced they were. I don't care how many stars the kids on ND had coming out of high school, the fact is that they were all getting significant playing time for the first time this year, and I know Sharpley is a junior, but there is a reason why he was a 3rd stringer going into the season and we were reminded of that against Navy. talent doesn't equal automatic studs right away at the college level, no mater how big of a stud you were in high school. The difference between high school football and college ball is beyond comparisson, the speed of the game, the difference in blocking schemes, coverage schemes, the size of the players is beyond comparrison.

2) a new defensive scheme for the defensive guys to learn had an affect on the players at the beginning of the year

3) a head coach who is learning on the job just like his players are. This is all new to Weis too, dealing with all these young players and how to put all this together. We all have to remember that Weis has never had to go through something quite like this. he is getting a first hand look at how different College ball is compared to the pros. yeah he had to develop the talent at New England, but he is learning first hand how different the two levels are. There is a difference between new talent on the pro level and new/young talent at the college level.

You add just those 3 together and you have a pretty good recipee for a record setting disasterous season. so win/loss wise people saw bad season coming that wise. last in offensive categories and all that other stat bullshit, once again, no. But all that should mater is Ws and Ls, and Dan Silver, O'Leary, Chimmel and all the other guys that follow ND inside and out saw 2007 two years ago being a trying year.

has weis done questionable things this year. Of coarse, he is learning and I have no doubts that he is adapting, we have seen him make changes in his coaching style this year. I hope that he brings in a coach for the special teams and gets away from all the coach's having a say so in it, that is not the way the go. I hope that spring practice sessions will be balls out and it sounds like they will be.

 

[kmoose]

In between "turning the ball over" and "go to OT" I will add the fact that enough time still remained for Navy to score.

That's a pretty big stretch. Navy got the ball back inside their own 40 with 41 seconds left.

 

[Timugen]

I am not missing the point Tim, I see it plain as day. My response to it is to put it bluntly, who gives a shit, we are 1-8, the stats don't really mean shit to me when you look at several factors.

1) who is getting the majority of playing time on offense and defense. Its an extremely young roster and to put it simply, its a high school all star team going against teams that are extremely experienced this year. Look at ND's first 8 opponents and look at how many returning starters they had and how experienced they were. I don't care how many stars the kids on ND had coming out of high school, the fact is that they were all getting significant playing time for the first time this year, and I know Sharpley is a junior, but there is a reason why he was a 3rd stringer going into the season and we were reminded of that against Navy. talent doesn't equal automatic studs right away at the college level, no mater how big of a stud you were in high school. The difference between high school football and college ball is beyond comparisson, the speed of the game, the difference in blocking schemes, coverage schemes, the size of the players is beyond comparrison.

2) a new defensive scheme for the defensive guys to learn had an affect on the players at the beginning of the year

3) a head coach who is learning on the job just like his players are. This is all new to Weis too, dealing with all these young players and how to put all this together. We all have to remember that Weis has never had to go through something quite like this. he is getting a first hand look at how different College ball is compared to the pros. yeah he had to develop the talent at New England, but he is learning first hand how different the two levels are. There is a difference between new talent on the pro level and new/young talent at the college level.

You add just those 3 together and you have a pretty good recipee for a record setting disasterous season. so win/loss wise people saw bad season coming that wise. last in offensive categories and all that other stat bullshit, once again, no. But all that should mater is Ws and Ls, and Dan Silver, O'Leary, Chimmel and all the other guys that follow ND inside and out saw 2007 two years ago being a trying year.

has weis done questionable things this year. Of coarse, he is learning and I have no doubts that he is adapting, we have seen him make changes in his coaching style this year. I hope that he brings in a coach for the special teams and gets away from all the coach's having a say so in it, that is not the way the go. I hope that spring practice sessions will be balls out and it sounds like they will be.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, because teams with MUCH LESS talent than we have have done much better against common opponents. Like I've said at least a million times, I can handle the losses, but when we continually look like we aren't even a Div I-A team then I have a problem. Throw into that the fact that there has been little to no improvement on the field over 3/4 of a season and I see problems in the coaching department and no reason to be optimistic about the future with this coaching staff, no matter who they recruit.

And once again....NOBODY foresaw us being THIS BAD, which was the original point of my reply to your post saying we all saw this coming.

 

[marv81s]

That's a pretty big stretch. Navy got the ball back inside their own 40 with 41 seconds left.

considering how wide open their fullback and RB were getting when did they did throw is it really that big of a stretch?

I'm still trying to figure out how a fullback gets so wide open on play action, when your playing the against the triple option the fullback ALWAYS gets hit, whether he gets the ball or not, he should never make it past the line of scrimmage

 

[marv81s]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, because teams with MUCH LESS talent than we have have done much better against common opponents. Like I've said at least a million times, I can handle the losses, but when we continually look like we aren't even a Div I-A team then I have a problem. Throw into that the fact that there has been little to no improvement on the field over 3/4 of a season and I see problems in the coaching department and no reason to be unabashedly optimistic about the future with this coaching staff, no matter who they recruit.

you've seen zero improvements this year? AA hasn't looked better? Aldridge? Duval? Brian Smith and Kerry Neal? Ian Williams? Paris? Tate? Olson? Ragone?

Come on man, the season has been bad, but to say zero improvements have been made is, I don't think, accurate. other teams aren't playing and haven't had to rely on their young guys as much as ND either. Other teams haven't played the strength of schedule ND has this year either, so who knows what other "less talented" teams would have done. I can honestly say that if ND played a schedule like Hawai'i's and/or Ohio State, they wouldn't be 1-8. This isn't the best schedule to have when your rebuilding. ND, thanks to prior coaching staffs, doesn't have talented depth and quality upper classman either like other teams do. 7 seniors? the 5th year guys, with the exception of 2 or 3 guys have been very disappointing, and their is absolutely ZERO upperclass leadership on this team. Not to mention I am sure there is a riff between the upperclass guys and younger guys, since they are getting the majority of playing time this year.

Like you said, agree to dissagree.

 

[Wham]

.

 

[Sureal]

this is going to be one long off season man. Ugh.

 

[Wham]

That's a pretty big stretch. Navy got the ball back inside their own 40 with 41 seconds left.

It took them 1 play to get 25 yards on a pass. In triple coverage. Among STAR (sarcasm) athletes. At a crucial moment.

That is the power of the option. Run the 3 plays that work over and over and over until the D commits, then WHAM catch them with their pants around the ankles. Another beauty of the option is that you practice it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (GET THE POINT) and over and over and over and over and over.....
BOYS BEAT MEN WHEN THEY PRACTICE THE SAME PLAY OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER....
Notre Dame knew what Navy was going to run. Navy knew what Navy was going to run. Can you stop it? Can you stop a play that has been executed well because they run it over and over and over and over and over...

Wanna know what Osbourne did at Nebraska? He ran the same plays over and over and over and over and over and over and over....But each play adjusted to differences in the defense at the moment. At practice they ran (to simplify) "option right" 20 times against different looks. Execution of the one play improves. CW will run 20 different plays against the same look. Execution suffers.

I've missed you Kmoose. You are one of my favorites

 

[kmoose]

considering how wide open their fullback and RB were getting when did they did throw is it really that big of a stretch?

Considering their QB was 6 of 8, for 81 yards, it's a HUGE stretch. Plus, with only :41 left, Navy would have had to throw. You would have known it, I would have known it, everyone in the stadium would have known it, 1,000,000,000 people in China would have known it, and you can be damn sure that ND's DBs would have known it.

 

[Timugen]

you've seen zero improvements this year? AA hasn't looked better? Aldridge? Duval? Brian Smith and Kerry Neal? Ian Williams? Paris? Tate? Olson? Ragone?

Come on man, the season has been bad, but to say zero improvements have been made is, I don't think, accurate. other teams aren't playing and haven't had to rely on their young guys as much as ND either. Other teams haven't played the strength of schedule ND has this year either, so who knows what other "less talented" teams would have done. I can honestly say that if ND played a schedule like Hawai'i's and/or Ohio State, they wouldn't be 1-8. This isn't the best schedule to have when your rebuilding. ND, thanks to prior coaching staffs, doesn't have talented depth and quality upper classman either like other teams do. 7 seniors? the 5th year guys, with the exception of 2 or 3 guys have been very disappointing, and their is absolutely ZERO upperclass leadership on this team. Not to mention I am sure there is a riff between the upperclass guys and younger guys, since they are getting the majority of playing time this year.

Like you said, agree to dissagree.

Please quote and highlight in my post where I said I saw ZERO improvement. I said "little to no improvement."

You might want to keep in mind that anything you may have seen as "improvement" in this last game needs to be taken with a grain of salt. wE WERE PLAYING NAVY. Every player on the field for us was a man among boys. Did they perform better than in prior weeks? Yes. BUT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO!!!!! Take a look at who Navy has lost to this year and then ask yourself if we should really accept what happened on Saturday. You can say the players played well and did their job, but then it still falls back on the coaching staff for the loss.

How many players that started for Navy did we recruit? How many of them were even a consideration for us? If you're going to excuse this team's performance (players and coaches) in the first 8 games because they were inexperienced and playing a tough schedule, then you need to recognize that they got 8 games experience against some of the best competition. They (coaches and players) then proceeded to have two weeks to prepare to line up against one of the worst defenses in CFB and shit the bed(coaches more than players.) Plain and simple.

 

[Wham]

you've seen zero improvements this year? .... I can honestly say that if ND played a schedule like Hawai'i's and/or Ohio State, they wouldn't be 1-8.

What would you say if you were lying? Notre Dame just lost to Navy. Notre Dame has the worst football team ever witnessed by the entire world, be it NBC or internet replay. It is at least now accessible to the entire world.

 

[Timugen]

Every knowledgable person that knows a thing or two about college football saw this season coming.

And this still isn't true.

 

[johnnd05]

Via BGS:

the Heart of the Matter

Mike Frank has a revealing piece today over on Irish Eyes, where he calls up former ND captain Shane Walton to talk about the Irish defensive effort versus Navy and get his take on this year's Irish squad:

Walton remains a loyal son of Notre Dame and never misses a game. He’s hopeful for the future, but says the team needs to change their attitude before they’ll win some games.

“The losses don’t bother me, it’s the way we lose,” [Walton] said. “I’m not even talking about the score. I’m talking about the lack of effort on the field. When we played, our coaches used to tell us that we played for all the people who are here right now, and you played for all those people who wore this jersey before you. I think maybe they need to be reminded of that. That’s a big burden to carry. I never wanted to disappoint anyone who wore that jersey before me. You don’t want to let those guys down. You want to uphold that tradition and be a part of the tradition that’s made Notre Dame so great over the years.”

 

[Timugen]

Sadly, no matter how many times it's said. or who says it, there will always be those whose first reaction is to drum up <del>excuses</del>, er...."explanations."

 

[SoCalDomer]

We could not be more in agreement on this. As I said, I think the decision NOT to at least try the FG was a TERRIBLE one.

I went back to read my initial post you responded to and I wanted to make something clear that I may not have. I'm not saying I know the kicker would have made it. Nor was I saying I think he, the kicker we have, would have made it. You're right, anyone within the program including Weis would have a better gauge on his abilities, his practice kicks and his current record.

I think we generally agree that the upside of kicking (in general) were better than the upsides of going for it. And the downside of missing the kick wasn't as bad as the downside of not making in on 4th down.

Sorry for any confusion, hope my clarification helps.

 

[Wham]

Via BGS:

the Heart of the Matter

Mike Frank has a revealing piece today over on Irish Eyes, where he calls up former ND captain Shane Walton to talk about the Irish defensive effort versus Navy and get his take on this year's Irish squad:

Bunch of crap. You play football because you want to knock the shit out of somebody.