Sureal
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Nope.
Can you imagine a Ellsbury-Pedoria 1-2 combo for the next 5-7 years.
the young guns we have aren't too bad. Let them grow into being dominant pitchers.
Red Sox Offseason Thread
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Nope.
Can you imagine a Ellsbury-Pedoria 1-2 combo for the next 5-7 years.
the young guns we have aren't too bad. Let them grow into being dominant pitchers.
Newc
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Haha..by no mean am I saying get rid of Ellsbury. He and Pedroia are a killer combination of young guys to have coming through your system. And I do have faith in Lester and Bucholz as they will surely develop into good pitchers. But will they be Santana good? Few are. I've always been one to believe that good pitching always beats good hitting. When you have the oppurtunity to go get an ace, you give up your young hot position player to get him every time. The Sox can find a good centerfielder to come play for them, especially if we have two proven aces (Beckett and Johan) and possibly two on the way (Bucholz and Dice-K).
I don't think I will be upset either way. If we have to give up Jacoby to get Johan then great, if we refuse to give him up and don't get Johan then oh well, its not like we are in great need for him. But the fact remains, with Johan, Beckett, Dick-K, Schilling and a young gun in the rotation, the Sox win the East again, win 105-110 games and are the serious World Series favorite.
I don't think I will be upset either way. If we have to give up Jacoby to get Johan then great, if we refuse to give him up and don't get Johan then oh well, its not like we are in great need for him. But the fact remains, with Johan, Beckett, Dick-K, Schilling and a young gun in the rotation, the Sox win the East again, win 105-110 games and are the serious World Series favorite.
Sureal
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I heard about Haren getting some airplay from some of the brass at Yawkey...
Now I like Santana. I'm just weary about giving up our prospects for someone. Who would you deem as untouchable?
Besides the vets. I'm talking 1-2 year players and minor leaguers...
Now I like Santana. I'm just weary about giving up our prospects for someone. Who would you deem as untouchable?
Besides the vets. I'm talking 1-2 year players and minor leaguers...
Newc
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Untouchables...I guess it depends on who we were to go after. For Santana I would offer any of our young guys, other than Pedroia ofcourse, but only one of the top prospects, either Lester or Bucholz, not both and if they wanted a Lester & Ellsbury deal then I would not let go of Bowden in addition, Masterson yes.
Other than that we kind of have some wiggle room. I think Bowden is our next big arm, I actually like him better than Masterson even though he just has some AA experience.
If we were to go after Haren, only one of our top guys would be available, and only three deep at the most playerwise. A Lester, Lowery PTBNL maybe, but no way any combo of Lester, Bucholz, Jacoby, Bowden.
Haha its really confusing after I read over all that, but its a giant chess match when it comes to these trades. Ofcourse we aren't going to get an ace without having to give up some big guns of our own. The more I think about it, Haren may end up being the biggest pickup of the offseason, with Johan garnishing all the attention someone may slip away with a hell of a good pitcher while leaving the farm rather intact.
Other than that we kind of have some wiggle room. I think Bowden is our next big arm, I actually like him better than Masterson even though he just has some AA experience.
If we were to go after Haren, only one of our top guys would be available, and only three deep at the most playerwise. A Lester, Lowery PTBNL maybe, but no way any combo of Lester, Bucholz, Jacoby, Bowden.
Haha its really confusing after I read over all that, but its a giant chess match when it comes to these trades. Ofcourse we aren't going to get an ace without having to give up some big guns of our own. The more I think about it, Haren may end up being the biggest pickup of the offseason, with Johan garnishing all the attention someone may slip away with a hell of a good pitcher while leaving the farm rather intact.
Newc
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3:28 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Twins and Red Sox are getting closer to finalizing a Johan Santana deal. Boston has sweetened its offer by adding a fifth player to the trade proposal -- outfield prospect Ryan Kalish, a ninth-round draft pick in the 2006 out of Red Bank Catholic High School (Shrewsbury, N.J.). - From ESPN's Winter Meetings Blog
This would mean that the Twins are interested in the Lester deal which would include Coco, Masterson, Lowery and now Ryan Kalish. Therefore, Jacoby would be our starting centerfielder.
Awesome deal in my mind. Sure we give up Lester, but he would top out at a #2 at best, Coco is gone, no big deal since we have Jacoby although I did really like the guy, Lowery is gone, which means we really have no non-first baseman infielders in our farm except the 17 year old Tejada who is a LONG way from being ready for the bigs, and Masterson, who is a good sinker baller but most likely no more than a quality #3 in the big leagues. I have no info on Ryan Kalish, so I think that is just a sweetener there.
Just think, Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling and Bucholz.
With the lineup looking like:
Ellsbury - CF
Youklis - 1B
Ortiz - DH
Ramirez - LF
Drew - RF
Lowell - 3B
Pedroia - 2B
Varitek - C
Lugo - SS
Can you say repeat World Series Champs???
• The Twins and Red Sox are getting closer to finalizing a Johan Santana deal. Boston has sweetened its offer by adding a fifth player to the trade proposal -- outfield prospect Ryan Kalish, a ninth-round draft pick in the 2006 out of Red Bank Catholic High School (Shrewsbury, N.J.). - From ESPN's Winter Meetings Blog
This would mean that the Twins are interested in the Lester deal which would include Coco, Masterson, Lowery and now Ryan Kalish. Therefore, Jacoby would be our starting centerfielder.
Awesome deal in my mind. Sure we give up Lester, but he would top out at a #2 at best, Coco is gone, no big deal since we have Jacoby although I did really like the guy, Lowery is gone, which means we really have no non-first baseman infielders in our farm except the 17 year old Tejada who is a LONG way from being ready for the bigs, and Masterson, who is a good sinker baller but most likely no more than a quality #3 in the big leagues. I have no info on Ryan Kalish, so I think that is just a sweetener there.
Just think, Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling and Bucholz.
With the lineup looking like:
Ellsbury - CF
Youklis - 1B
Ortiz - DH
Ramirez - LF
Drew - RF
Lowell - 3B
Pedroia - 2B
Varitek - C
Lugo - SS
Can you say repeat World Series Champs???
SoCalDomer
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Ya, it looks like you beat the Yanks for another top pitcher
daytonirish
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Are the Red SOx trying to overtake the Yankees as the most hateed team in baseball ? Wait a minute, is the state of Mass. trying to be the most hated state ? Red Sox, N.E. Pats, B.C., I mean I know you guys lost the MLS championship but this is getting rediculous. 
Newc
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Dude, Beckett and Santana could be the next Drysdale and Kofax. That is unheard of anymore. Pure Domination!
daytonirish
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Thanks Newc but I don't drink champagne. Beer man just beer. 
Newc
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I don't like all the silence now, purely out of my own impatience. With the Tigers getting both Dontrelle and Miggy I think that the Santana deal has just taken a jump in importance. The Tigers are going to be one hell of a team next year and as things stand right now, I could very well see a Detroit Boston ALCS.
This brings up two very different scenerios:
1) With the emergence of Cleveland and now with Detroit getting much stronger, the Twins could see this as a transition period and be more inclined to take some good young prospects and try to build for the future.
2) The Twins could still believe that they are very much in the hunt for a division or wild card win here and believe that they can only achieve that with Santana at the helm.
Ofcourse I am very biased when it comes to this trade, but here is what I believe and I will take as much of my personal wants out of this as much as I can.
The Twins have to realize that this is the absolute last year they will have Santana, given that they don't deal him here over the winter. They will not be able to afford his contract next year and will not want to get into an inflated bidding war with Boston, New York (both teams most likely) and the Halos. Therefore, with the huge acqusition that Detroit just pulled off and with the success that Cleveland had last year, the Twins would be wise to see this as the best time to rebuild. Who better than Santana would bring in a number of prospects that you can develop and create a young core of solid ballplayers in an attempt to make a serious charge in two to three years from now. We've seen that it can be done as evidence in Cleveland's run of success lately, they have laid the blueprint that the Twins could easily follow. There is no reason in Minn. playing hard ball with any team involved in the Santana deal and their only goal should be getting a number of promising prospects back for him, not trying to start the season with him and not hoping he can be dealt mid-season. The time is now for the Twins to make their move and grab who they think can be the future of their ballclub. I think all of the offers on the table far exceed the Twins keeping Santana this year and wind up with draft picks at the end of the year once he signs elsewhere.
This brings up two very different scenerios:
1) With the emergence of Cleveland and now with Detroit getting much stronger, the Twins could see this as a transition period and be more inclined to take some good young prospects and try to build for the future.
2) The Twins could still believe that they are very much in the hunt for a division or wild card win here and believe that they can only achieve that with Santana at the helm.
Ofcourse I am very biased when it comes to this trade, but here is what I believe and I will take as much of my personal wants out of this as much as I can.
The Twins have to realize that this is the absolute last year they will have Santana, given that they don't deal him here over the winter. They will not be able to afford his contract next year and will not want to get into an inflated bidding war with Boston, New York (both teams most likely) and the Halos. Therefore, with the huge acqusition that Detroit just pulled off and with the success that Cleveland had last year, the Twins would be wise to see this as the best time to rebuild. Who better than Santana would bring in a number of prospects that you can develop and create a young core of solid ballplayers in an attempt to make a serious charge in two to three years from now. We've seen that it can be done as evidence in Cleveland's run of success lately, they have laid the blueprint that the Twins could easily follow. There is no reason in Minn. playing hard ball with any team involved in the Santana deal and their only goal should be getting a number of promising prospects back for him, not trying to start the season with him and not hoping he can be dealt mid-season. The time is now for the Twins to make their move and grab who they think can be the future of their ballclub. I think all of the offers on the table far exceed the Twins keeping Santana this year and wind up with draft picks at the end of the year once he signs elsewhere.
daytonirish
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I don't know if I agree with you Newc about the Twins not holding out or playing hard ball. The Tigers gave up alot of quality youngsters to make the deal with the Marlins. The Twins gotta feel like sooner or later they will get more back for Santana than what the Marlins got. They could wait until nid-point of the season when both the Yanks and Sox always seem to make a monster deal if that's what they need to do.
Newc
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Yea but Santana has stated that he will not waive his no trade clause once the season begins. I have no doubt that he means that because he is taking a big risk even starting the season without a long term contract in place. I believe it was Steve Phillips (though I think the guy is a moron) who made a good point in that what if Santana feels a pop or a twinge in his shoulder or something in spring training or before he is traded, there goes his huge payday.
With the contracts that these pitchers are getting, I think it is naive to believe that Santana doesn't believe he is due for some big time bucks. Over the past 4 seasons he has been the best pitcher in baseball (and thats not just my feelings, check the numbers, he ranks #1 Wins, ERA, K/BB and #2 in innings) and I am sure he is putting pressure on the Twins to make a move here as well.
Also, I don't think the Twins could get the same amount of prospects mid-season that they can now. Injuries happen, guys underperform, ect. ect. What happens if someone in the Sox or Yanks or Angels organization comes up lame and one of those guys talked about being traded is needed to fill in, then the deal is much less sweet. And god forbid, what if Santana has just a horrible start? Are any of those teams still going to be interested after his struggles last year and if so, how many of the guys they were willing to trade are then pulled back?
The best time to make a deal of this magnitude is always during the winter meeting. Just look at what the Marlins and Tigers pulled off. That trade would have never happened mid season becuase there are too many other things to consider when people are in or out of pennant races.
With the contracts that these pitchers are getting, I think it is naive to believe that Santana doesn't believe he is due for some big time bucks. Over the past 4 seasons he has been the best pitcher in baseball (and thats not just my feelings, check the numbers, he ranks #1 Wins, ERA, K/BB and #2 in innings) and I am sure he is putting pressure on the Twins to make a move here as well.
Also, I don't think the Twins could get the same amount of prospects mid-season that they can now. Injuries happen, guys underperform, ect. ect. What happens if someone in the Sox or Yanks or Angels organization comes up lame and one of those guys talked about being traded is needed to fill in, then the deal is much less sweet. And god forbid, what if Santana has just a horrible start? Are any of those teams still going to be interested after his struggles last year and if so, how many of the guys they were willing to trade are then pulled back?
The best time to make a deal of this magnitude is always during the winter meeting. Just look at what the Marlins and Tigers pulled off. That trade would have never happened mid season becuase there are too many other things to consider when people are in or out of pennant races.
daytonirish
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Great points. So now we just sit back, relax, 
and see who is going to :makeadeal with the Twins first. You just gottalove the winter baseball meetings.
and see who is going to :makeadeal with the Twins first. You just gottalove the winter baseball meetings.
Newc
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And I'm sorry if it came off that I was implying that the Twins are "playing hardball" or holding out. I didn't mean it that way. The Twins need to draw this out in order to get a large return on their star. I don't blame them at all for taking to time to examine all of their options here and try to get everyone that they want and deserve in this deal. I just meant that they need to be careful not to draw this out to where Boston feels the need to address other needs or turns their attention to Haren or tried to block the Yanks in other deals they are attempting to make.
These moves are always very tricky when they reach this level. Just look at the Florida and Angels deals that continued to fall through. Everyone thought that Miggy would end up in Anaheim and look what happened there.
Ofcourse I want the Sox to lock up Santana, but the Twins have every right to investigate every avenue in order to get the best return.
NOTE: However, the Twins better damn trade Santana to the Sox or I will curse their name for all eternity!!
daytonirish
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Thank you guys for a intellegent discussion about baseball. It's not like I ever hated the Sox , but with all the Sox fans on this site. And with the trade my Tigers just made and the one they're going to make with Inge this will make for great chatter between us this season. Can't wait to play you guys in the ALCS. ( Tigers sweep of course). :jawdrop:
Sureal
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Newc
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Hey now, you can't talk about de-throning the KING untill you show that you can!
Newc
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Crap is right. I was really hoping the Dodgers didn't get in on this, they are the team that scares me the most here, they seem to have an unlimited number of prospects and they are all pretty highly rated.
I doubt the Mets could put together a deal better than the one the Sox have with Lester and the Angels have some good youngins but the Twins really want a promising pitcher back and I think Lester is the leader in that category. The question is, will the Twins forego the pitcher if they can get a number of solid position players?? Thats the only way I see the Sox getting burned in this deal.
However, if the Dodgers do get Santana its not all that bad for the Sox, he goes to the NL and not to an already solid AL foe...so it could be worse.
Offer Lester and Ellsbury now, with Masterson to top off the deal. If the Twins turn that down then its obvious they want numbers.
Newc
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Sources from Nashville are saying that they Twins have sought out other teams in order to give them a "last chance to make your best offer" oppurtunity. Supposedly, if the Twins do not hear back from these teams with offers that trump that of the Red Sox then they are ready to pull the trigger.
Newc
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Haha...well, I appologize to anyone who is looking for new info, but Peter Gammons is reporting that he is hearing that the Twins have not been blown away with any offers and may just hold onto Santana.
Haha, gotta love this stuff. The rumors are going to be coming in by the minute and things are sure to change a million times before the day is through. Sit tight Sox fans, we are in for some entertainment to say the least.
However, whenever the news seems to get like this coming out so frequently with so many changes it usually means that something definitive is on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if this is all wrapped up by the end of the day.
Haha, gotta love this stuff. The rumors are going to be coming in by the minute and things are sure to change a million times before the day is through. Sit tight Sox fans, we are in for some entertainment to say the least.
However, whenever the news seems to get like this coming out so frequently with so many changes it usually means that something definitive is on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if this is all wrapped up by the end of the day.
Newc
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Haha...wheres my prozac?