Newt Gingrich

LOVEMYIRISH

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That's your opinion & can be debated until the cows come home. Consider the promises that Reagan made when he campaigned for office. He promised to reduce the inflation rate, and it came down. He promised to cut taxes, and he did. He said the tax cuts would lead to an economic recovery, and they did. He said he would reduce unemployment, & it happened He said he would lower interest rates, and they declined.

When you had record high interest rates/inflation/unemployment getting it lower was a matter of waiting. His economic policies did as much as any would have.

The Cold War was coming to an end whether he did anything or not. Carter suckered the Soviets into invading Afghanistan and that was the beginning of the end for them.

Eliminate price controls WAS A VERY GOOD THING.

But Reagan's legacy is debt, spending, debt, and more spending...he never tried to stop it. It was never part of his plan. And that is just wrong.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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How do you know Clinton did his BEST to find him & kill him. surely you're not taking his word on it? Does that mean other President's (REPs & DEMs) didn't do their best when failing to accomplish something that they feel is important for us?

Taking his word? I am not taking his word at all...I am taking his actions into account. And those are the actions we know about, let alone the ones that remain secret.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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(Just because we don't mind 2 chicks making out, doesn't mean we are hypocrites if we don't approve of gay marriage.

It means you are male.

Honest to god, I have gay friends and I tell them this:
I know you are gay because seeing two chicks make out does not thrill you.

;)
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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When you had record high interest rates/inflation/unemployment getting it lower was a matter of waiting. His economic policies did as much as any would have.

The Cold War was coming to an end whether he did anything or not. Carter suckered the Soviets into invading Afghanistan and that was the beginning of the end for them.

Eliminate price controls WAS A VERY GOOD THING.

But Reagan's legacy is debt, spending, debt, and more spending...he never tried to stop it. It was never part of his plan. And that is just wrong.

You are absolutely wrong about Reagan. You don't have to like him, but don't try to tell conservatives he wasn't a great man. The best thing he did for America is helping get her confidence back. Something hard to quantify.
In total, he did a great job, but then again, how many die hard leftists feel the same about Clinton, and Carter (cough, cough).
 
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stonebreakerwasgod

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It means you are male.

Honest to god, I have gay friends and I tell them this:
I know you are gay because seeing two chicks make out does not thrill you.

;)


Good call! Some things are just natural to me, and some things just aint! There was a big discussion yesterday on Hannity radio (your fav) about religion and morals. If there is one thing I got out of the whole thing, EVERYBODY has their own idea of: right and wrong, how church rules apply, etc, etc. I think there are hypocrites who do stand on a pedestal and preach to others, they should set an example. They rest of us try to be as good as we can, without having to give up too much. (The whole Lent thing is a big drag)
 

IRISHDODGER

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When you had record high interest rates/inflation/unemployment getting it lower was a matter of waiting. His economic policies did as much as any would have.

The Cold War was coming to an end whether he did anything or not. Carter suckered the Soviets into invading Afghanistan and that was the beginning of the end for them.

Eliminate price controls WAS A VERY GOOD THING.

But Reagan's legacy is debt, spending, debt, and more spending...he never tried to stop it. It was never part of his plan. And that is just wrong.

Wrong in your opinion. Measured in 1987 dollars, the military budget soared from $187 billion in 1980 to $286 billion in 1989, an increase of more than 50%. If Reagan had not spent roughly $2 trillion on defense during his tenure, no doubt the deficit would have been a lot smaller. Yet Reagan justified the military buildup on the grounds that the U.S. was fighting the cold war. America won the cold war. Economist Lawrence Lindsey calculates that the country's defense savings since the collapse of the Soviet empire have more than compensated for the investment that Reagan made in the 1980s. In purely economic terms, Lindsey was quoted as saying, the cost of the Reagan military buildup was "a fantastic payoff--the best money we ever spent"

I respect your Soviet knowledge & agree that you make valid points regarding the Cold War. I'll grant you that other factors led up to the end of the cold war, but you'll never convince the average joe, much less conservatives, that Reagan wasn't more responsible for bringing the cold war to a sooner end than expected. That is the perception based on Reagan's actions. Had Carter or the others preceding him been as fervently anti-communist, maybe they'd share in more of the credit. But unfortunately for your argument, perception is reality. Anyone can read reams & reams of Reagan's history & learn how philosophically opposed he was to communism, the USSR in particular. Was he tough on Gorbachev & the USSR in the press & more willing to negotiate in private as you state? Who cares? He helped get the job done & the press (most of it) is reluctant to acknowledge this.

As far as the deficit, I alluded to how Congress was forced to reduce spending via Gramm-Rudman which led to the budget balancing itself (as explained by some economists). The late Milton Friedman wrote, "the deficit has been the ONLY effective restraint on congressional spending". Sad, but evidently true.

BTW, Reagan may not have created the Third Industrial Revolution that occurred during his 2nd term. Its actual course had more to do w/ Bill Gates & other ingenious entrepreneurs. But where did all the venture capital for the new industries of the 1980s come from? There was very little around in the 1970s. Why the doubling of venture capital in the 1980s? When Silicon Valley entrepreneurs were asked, many gave credit to 2 men, one being Ronald Reagan. They credited his policies of limited gov't, deregulation, & open mkts w/ creating an atmosphere in which the revolution could flourish. Michael Dell argues that Reagan did this in part by championing the entrepreneur as an American hero who defies limits to the imagination & creates new things. And you thought Al Gore created the internet:wink:
 

IRISHDODGER

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Taking his word? I am not taking his word at all...I am taking his actions into account. And those are the actions we know about, let alone the ones that remain secret.

You'd be suprised how much Clinton, Reagan & George HW Bush had in common when it comes to covert military actions that Congress & the public would frown on. Of course, it's all conspiracy theories, but it gets you wonderin'.
 

lattedatte

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What's wrong w/ having principles & sticking to them. Reagan pissed all his opponents off by sticking by his mandates through thick & thin: lower taxes, incr. military, rabid anti commie. Remember how bad he pisssed off the air traffic controllers when they went on strike. It was a PR disaster to fire them like he did, but he did it & it stopped them dead in their tracks. I respect men/women w/ the balls to fight for what they believe (on philosophical levels) whether I agree w/ it or not is another story. Americans mistakenly hang their hats on the U.S. being a democracy whereas, in actuality it's a representative republic. In other words, just b/c a poll says the people feel one way, it doesn't mean the leaders have to change their beliefs systems to react in accordance w/ the polls. Reagan's poll numbers were in the mid-30s early in his term but he urged Americans to "stay the course". The recession turned around & America enjoyed the prosperity they were promised.

Having principles and being stubborn are not the same thing. I'm not going to question the fact we went into Iraq, I might have done the same thing considering the "intelligence" and 911. Being stubborn about staying the course, when it clearly isn't working, is just plain stupid much less stubborn.

And just so you know, I watched a PBS documentary on Raegan, he looked at the polls daily. The man was an actor, he cared more what people thought of him than anyone. I don't remeber who actually said that but it was either his son or someone very close to him in his admin.
 

lattedatte

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I like Howard Stern. My buddy and I are both conservatives, but we aren't religious zealots, we just like lower taxes, more traditional values, and good porn. No hypocrisy here.

OK, cool, I most certainly like lower taxes.. but I just had to write a big AMT check this year. I doubt AMT was really intended for a familiy income of about 145k. I think the middle class should be the ones getting the majority of tax breaks and let the rich pay a higher %. We are the ones buy Ford/GM's/clothing/gas/baby funiture/milk and produce. I don't believe in trickle down.

I don't know what traditional values are so I cant agree with you.

Andy finally anyone that doesn't like good porn should be checked for the gay gene(please don't start another thread on if it is science or not).
 
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TexasDomer

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Andy finally anyone that doesn't like good porn should be checked for the gay gene(please don't start another thread on if it is science or not).

I know this is meant as a joke, but just a drift here--it's not a matter of whether one "likes" it, but rather whether one should view it even if they like it. People like all kinds of things that are, in the long run, not in their best interests.
 

lattedatte

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I know this is meant as a joke, but just a drift here--it's not a matter of whether one "likes" it, but rather whether one should view it even if they like it. People like all kinds of things that are, in the long run, not in their best interests.

I think we found a religious right for ya Stonebreaker.

i hope you are not hinting that I nor anyone should not watch porn?
 
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TexasDomer

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First, I don't think that religion belongs on a right to left spectrum. It's more along a right to wrong spectrum.

I cannot, in good conscience, view porn or recommend anyone else does. That's all I'm saying. I'm happy to share why I believe that way, if anyone cares to know.

I'm not saying I've never viewed it. I am saying that I am sorry I ever did, and I hope I don't ever again, and I can't recommend that anyone should.

Understand, however, that my not recommending viewing it (or even my recommending not to view it) isn't me condemning anyone. It's more about my following my conscience than my trying to force my beliefs on you. Whether you do or not is your own decision.
 

lattedatte

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First, I don't think that religion belongs on a right to left spectrum. It's more along a right to wrong spectrum.

I cannot, in good conscience, view porn or recommend anyone else does. That's all I'm saying. I'm happy to share why I believe that way, if anyone cares to know.

I'm not saying I've never viewed it. I am saying that I am sorry I ever did, and I hope I don't ever again, and I can't recommend that anyone should.

Understand, however, that my not recommending viewing it (or even my recommending not to view it) isn't me condemning anyone. It's more about my following my conscience than my trying to force my beliefs on you. Whether you do or not is your own decision.

It was a small joke between stoney and I, regarding finding religous right read the posts above.

I'm sorry you have jiminy cricket on your shoulder. I don't think you should feel bad for that, I'm sure you were younger and at the time it seemed ok. People change. I appluade you for not forcing this on anyone or condemning me and stoney or anyone for enjoying it AND watching it.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I applaud all people that have principles and live by them. If more parents and politicians did so, America would be a much better place.
 

IRISHDODGER

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Having principles and being stubborn are not the same thing. I'm not going to question the fact we went into Iraq, I might have done the same thing considering the "intelligence" and 911. Being stubborn about staying the course, when it clearly isn't working, is just plain stupid much less stubborn.

And just so you know, I watched a PBS documentary on Raegan, he looked at the polls daily. The man was an actor, he cared more what people thought of him than anyone. I don't remeber who actually said that but it was either his son or someone very close to him in his admin.

I think we're talking about different men. I'm speaking of Reagan & you're speaking of Bush & Iraq. I've soured on Bush but admit that I voted for him both times b/c the Dems put a couple of idiots to run vs. him.

Most people care what others think of them to some extent. As far as being an actor, I think it helped rather than hurt (maybe it'd help Bush!). He actually got most of his public speaking experience when he went around the country speaking for General Electric & before that as the head of the actor's union (don't know if they call it SAG back then).

I didn't say Reagan didn't look at the polls...I said he didn't let it change his basic philosophy. BTW, if the son you speak of is Ron, Jr then it'll be negative about Reagan's politics (although he still loved his dad) but if you're talking about Michael it will be positive b/c they are of the same ilk politically. Ronnie Jr. is the effeminate one (not that there's anything wrong w/ that:wink: ).
 

IRISHDODGER

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First, I don't think that religion belongs on a right to left spectrum. It's more along a right to wrong spectrum.

I cannot, in good conscience, view porn or recommend anyone else does. That's all I'm saying. I'm happy to share why I believe that way, if anyone cares to know.

I'm not saying I've never viewed it. I am saying that I am sorry I ever did, and I hope I don't ever again, and I can't recommend that anyone should.

Understand, however, that my not recommending viewing it (or even my recommending not to view it) isn't me condemning anyone. It's more about my following my conscience than my trying to force my beliefs on you. Whether you do or not is your own decision.


Couldn't have said it better myself! Good job!
 
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TexasDomer

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Guys, I really don't want to come off as a holy roller, just so you know. I've got plenty of faults--just ask my wife!

Now back to your regularly scheduled political discussion/debate...
 

IRISHDODGER

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Guys, I really don't want to come off as a holy roller, just so you know. I've got plenty of faults--just ask my wife!

Now back to your regularly scheduled political discussion/debate...

Don't sweat it! I've probably sinned more in my life than most the people on this forum, but I know Jesus died for those sins & as soon as I received Him as Lord & Savior, none of that mattered. I'm no bible thumper & most atheists can cite the Bible better than me. Not only that I don't always model the ideal Christian as I tend to cuss a little (OK a lot) too much & enjoy a cold beer (or 8). But I'm trying to better my walk each day & I know where I stand w/ God & want my kids to be that example I never was growing up by accepting Christ at an earlier age.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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Amen brother! Speaking of actors...I think Fred Thompson would be as popular a candidate as Guiliani. Plus..he's not a lesbo. LOL



If I offended anyone, I was talking about Hillary.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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Speaking of Hilary, she actually (God's own truth) made the claim once that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, the first one atop Mt. St. Helens (ok ok I can't remember the damn mtn.). Except...........she was born before he did it.... LOL


Hillary: here's a tribute from Joan Jett called............LITTLE LIAR!


Sidenote: The truth comes courtesy of foxnews contributer babe Michelle Malkin, who if I can say, is one hell of a nerd babe!

OKOKOK it was Mt Everest. I looked it up.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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You are absolutely wrong about Reagan. You don't have to like him, but don't try to tell conservatives he wasn't a great man. The best thing he did for America is helping get her confidence back. Something hard to quantify.
In total, he did a great job, but then again, how many die hard leftists feel the same about Clinton, and Carter (cough, cough).

You are right about the Confidence thing. He made Americans feel special again...and that is hard to quantify. No doubt about that.

His economic policies were horrendous...but such is life I guess.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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Measured in 1987 dollars, the military budget soared from $187 billion in 1980 to $286 billion in 1989, an increase of more than 50%. If Reagan had not spent roughly $2 trillion on defense during his tenure, no doubt the deficit would have been a lot smaller. Yet Reagan justified the military buildup on the grounds that the U.S. was fighting the cold war. America won the cold war. Economist Lawrence Lindsey calculates that the country's defense savings since the collapse of the Soviet empire have more than compensated for the investment that Reagan made in the 1980s. In purely economic terms, Lindsey was quoted as saying, the cost of the Reagan military buildup was "a fantastic payoff--the best money we ever spent"

He is making the incorrect assumption that the higher spending led the Soviets to spend more. In fact during the Reagan years they CUT SPENDING. They ran out of money once they got involved in Afghanistan.

I respect your Soviet knowledge & agree that you make valid points regarding the Cold War. I'll grant you that other factors led up to the end of the cold war, but you'll never convince the average joe, much less conservatives, that Reagan wasn't more responsible for bringing the cold war to a sooner end than expected.

Well of course I can't convince them...they are happily ignorant of the truth. They don't want to know what really caused the USSR to fall apart. If they did they would be shocked. (although they would be proud to know it was not Defense but rather our standard of living that lead to the questioning of the government)
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I know the whole trickle down thing is debatable. I just am glad that under his watch through the present, our economy is doing a hell of a lot better than Europe. It sure is hard for people to give credit to those who they disagree with, me included. Bush gets no credit at all for anything, while I'm sure he has done something good. All people say about him is that he is an idiot. Which, of course, doesn't say much for the one saying that. Politics is politics though, not exactly an arena for the weak.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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You'd be suprised how much Clinton, Reagan & George HW Bush had in common when it comes to covert military actions that Congress & the public would frown on. Of course, it's all conspiracy theories, but it gets you wonderin'.

I would not be surpised at all. I know that Clinton was tremendously active on the military and intelligence front...just as much as his predecessors. He used military intervention against more than a couple tyrants.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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The people on the left disagree with you Lovemyirish, they give credit to Carter for the spending, and not Reagan. Isn't it funny how so many people can see things soo differently.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I would not be surpised at all. I know that Clinton was tremendously active on the military and intelligence front...just as much as his predecessors. He used military intervention against more than a couple tyrants.

You got to admit (maybe LOL), that the knock on him was that Clinton was risk averse. Which, in some ways, explains his overt actions against terrorists and in Somalia. Not to mention ignoring Saddam and the violations. Not necessarily a big knock on him, who wants to kill people, especially democrats. I do have a hard time buying that he was aggressive though.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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I know the whole trickle down thing is debatable.

It's not debatable, it was a sham. By Conservative and Liberal Economists time and time again. In fact, it is not even really an economic theory since it has been disproven. It is a socio-political theory...but not one that holds water from an economic or monetary perspective.

It sure is hard for people to give credit to those who they disagree with, me included. Bush gets no credit at all for anything, while I'm sure he has done something good.

He has done good things. He has done a good job supporting Free Trade in many ways. He is a lot like Clinton in that regard. Admittedly he has allowed a few protectionists to raise their heads...but generally he has pursued some decent trade agreements.

Honestly, his biggest problem is that he has not successfully launched any important Domestic agenda items in a few years. His efforts stalled out a couple of times. (Soc Security reform comes to mind).

He needs to work with Congress more in the next two years and he might get some things done.

All people say about him is that he is an idiot. Which, of course, doesn't say much for the one saying that. Politics is politics though, not exactly an arena for the weak.

I think he is a bad manager, since he lets people like Rumsfeld stay around and do more harm than good.

But let's face it, if he was a TRUE idiot he could not become President. He is politcally astute and wiley.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I think congress needs to work with him. He laid out several issues and congress has not done its job and run with it. You know members of congress are weak when they appoint special committees to investigate issues that should be theirs to begin with.

Trickle down is not a sham in my opinion, the basic premise makes sense. Wealthy people with more money tend to spend and invest, thereby stimulating economic activity.
The largest employers are small businesses. Given the incentive to invest their money by increased profits should only increase employment (and tax revenues). Economics is far from my area of expertise, I would have to do further research on it to answer intelligently (and to be honest, who cares that much).

Bush may be a bad manager, or listen to those who give bad advice. I feel the main problem with him is his lack of communication skills. He doesn't get his message out succinctly.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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You got to admit (maybe LOL), that the knock on him was that Clinton was risk averse.

Domestically he was risk averse, but not in foreign policy.

My key knock on him was that he never came up with a large scale Foreign Policy that was coherent. He tried to maintain the status quo, but he seemed to take issues as they happened a bit more than I like.


Which, in some ways, explains his overt actions against terrorists and in Somalia. Not to mention ignoring Saddam and the violations. Not necessarily a big knock on him, who wants to kill people, especially democrats. I do have a hard time buying that he was aggressive though.

Ummm...dude, he sent troops to more countries to shoot more people than any President in 30+ years.

The military was globetrotting with him as President.

He also did not ignore Saddam. In 1998 when he said we might need to invade Republicans accused him of doing so to take people's eyes off the Lewinsky scandal.


WIKIPEDIA ABOUT BOMBING IRAQ
The December 1998 bombing of Iraq (code-named Operation Desert Fox) was a major four-day bombing campaign on Iraqi targets from December 16-December 19, 1998 by the United States and United Kingdom. These strikes were undertaken in response to Iraq's continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission inspectors.

It was a major flare-up in the Iraq disarmament crisis. The stated goal of the cruise missile and bombing attacks was to "degrade" Saddam Hussein's ability to produce weapons of mass destruction, as well as seeking the auxiliary objective of disrupting Saddam's ability to maintain his grip of power.

President Clinton announced a new policy toward Iraq of "regime change." On October 31, 1998 the president signed into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act." [1] [2] The new Act appropriated funds to Iraqi opposition groups in the hope of removing Saddam Hussein from power and replacing his regime with a democracy.

The Act also said that "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize or otherwise speak to the use of United States Armed Forces," except in direct aid to an active Iraqi rebellion.

...

Some critics of the Clinton administration expressed concern over the timing of Operation Desert Fox. The four-day bombing campaign occurred at the same time the U.S. House of Representatives was conducting the impeachment hearing of President Clinton. Clinton was impeached on December 19, the last day of the bombing campaign. Critics claimed the timing of this operation was a so-called "Wag the Dog" scenario aimed at diverting media attention away from the impeachment proceedings. Some congressional Republicans hinted at holding hearings to investigate the timing of the bombing campaign, but this never materialized. A few months earlier, similar criticism was leveled during Operation Infinite Reach, wherein missile strikes were ordered against suspected terrorist bases in Sudan and Afghanistan, on August 20. The missile strikes began three days after Clinton was called to testify before a grand jury during the Lewinsky scandal

Remeber Operation Infinite Reach? I doubt it. It's been effectively ignored by the media and Republicans

The August 1998 bombings of Afghanistan and Sudan (code-named Operation Infinite Reach, by the US) were US cruise missile strikes on purported terrorist bases in Afghanistan and a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan on August 20, 1998. The attack was in retaliation for the bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, which killed 224 people (including 12 Americans) and injured 5,000 others
 
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