Nelson a Gator.....

[Irish Envy]

Waves to all of the peeps blitzing the site from GatorCountry.com! You guys could register and actually discuss the Nelson committment.

 

[tboc22383]

The funniest thing about this thread is the bashing of UF's academics. UF is a top 50 university according to US News and World Report and one of the top public universities in the nation.

 

[Rip Rap]

The funniest thing about this thread is the bashing of UF's academics. UF is a top 50 university according to US News and World Report and one of the top public universities in the nation.

Yeah, that is probably true. I think a few people earlier on the thread noted that. No state university is particularly selective, because they are intended to be widely accessible.

Is that what all the hits were for?

 

[BigIrish]

The funniest thing about this thread is the bashing of UF's academics. UF is a top 50 university according to US News and World Report and one of the top public universities in the nation.

that is, if you believe the convoluted way in which the US news and world report ranks universities. nothing against UF, but i'm going to go out on a limb and say that there are a LOT of students that go there for a LOT of reasons...none of which have anything to do with academics.

 

[Rip Rap]

that is, if you believe the convoluted way in which the US news and world report ranks universities. nothing against UF, but i'm going to go out on a limb and say that there are a LOT of students that go there for a LOT of reasons...none of which have anything to do with academics.

Well, Nelson didn't select Florida for the academics, I assure you.

However, state schools often have deeper coffers because of the taxes they rape from us private school kids. Oh, vouchers... Anyway, particularly when it comes to science and engineering facilities, state schools tend to have superior resources over most private schools. Private schools are often hamstrung by this and focus their attention on the humanities.

ND is unique in its ability to confront major state university science and engineering programs head-on. There are only a handful of private schools with the financial might to do this, and ND is currently the 17th wealthiest university in America (and gaining further ground).

For the record, I know about as many guys from Florida here in Cambridge as I do from ND...about 3 of each. The Florida guys are pretty enjoyable to be around too. On the other hand, Florida is about 5x the size of ND, so they represent a much smaller percentage of their alumni base.

 

[Rip Rap]

As for USNews, check out the 'reputation ranking.' The reason this number is so low is because ND is a religious school, meaning it doesn't have 'academic freedom.' The active prejudice against religious instruction by the Ivy League and its equivalents is under-reported. And this isn't simply an attack on Catholicism, it is an attack on theism itself.

Without this number, all of ND's other statistics would place the school firmly in the Top-10.

 

[Aerosmith777]

Another thing too to remember is when we talk about other school's academics, at least for myself, most of the time I'm talking about the way they treat their athletes. I'm sure regular students at Florida, OSU, Michigan, etc have to take a rigerous course load in order to graduate in 4 years w/ a degree in anything meaningful. Its just the athletes, particularly in football and basketball, at those schools seem to always get a pass that they don't get at Notre Dame. It seems to a lot of us that they can go for four years and then go on to the NFL/NBA (if they last 4 years as b-ball players) and leave w/o a degree. To me, if you have a large number of athletes at school for 4 years (particularly the ones talented enough to go on to the next level) who all "happen" not to graduate, that signifies they got special treatment somewhere along the way (assuming their eligibility was never taken away at any point during their 4 years).

 

[Rip Rap]

Another thing too to remember is when we talk about other school's academics, at least for myself, most of the time I'm talking about the way they treat their athletes.

Great point. By that standard, football graduation rates for Notre Dame: 76% (for both blacks & whites); Florida: 56% for whites, 36% for blacks (42% overall).

http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2004/d1/index.html

So yes, one in every three black kids that plays for the Gators will receive a degree. Florida had 5 kids drafted into the NFL last year, meaning there are a lot of former Florida football players out there without college degrees.

 

[JG22]

All the bashing of UF's academics here....obviously you guys don't do your research on schools and their academics.

UF is the #1 public school in the country (and #2 overall) in number of National Merit Scholars.
So, obviously some elite students are going to UF for more than just partying, as some on here have said.

 

[BigIrish]

All the bashing of UF's academics here....obviously you guys don't do your research on schools and their academics.

UF is the #1 public school in the country (and #2 overall) in number of National Merit Scholars.
So, obviously some elite students are going to UF for more than just partying, as some on here have said.

For real? Show me YOUR research then. Show me 1) where you pulled a stat like that, and 2) how you can justify making a claim like that when anyone that works in higher education knows that rankings of that nature mean nothing because they are literally impossible to prove and are never published by a truly independent entity.

But you're right - I'm sure there are elite students attending UF. Elite students can always be found at a public university. Your next challenge is to show me how many of them also happen to be football players at UF.

I think it was made clear that the discussion was focused on the football program's less than stellar graduation rates, not the student body as a whole.

 

[Rip Rap]

The power of Google:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/05/State/National_merit_schola.shtml

"Among 375 universities, UF ranked No. 2, just below Harvard. That means more national merit scholars went to Florida than to colleges like Yale, Stanford or the University of Michigan."

Bear in mind, Florida is 5x the size of ND. Hence, this quote, which our friend is ignoring: "UF has the second-most merit scholars in its freshman class, but on a percentage basis it falls behind other schools."

Yale, Stanford, and...Michigan?!?!? Oh, dear. Well that will be another thread.

 

[BigIrish]

The power of Google:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/05/State/National_merit_schola.shtml

"Among 375 universities, UF ranked No. 2, just below Harvard. That means more national merit scholars went to Florida than to colleges like Yale, Stanford or the University of Michigan."

Bear in mind, Florida is 5x the size of ND. Hence, this quote, which our friend is ignoring: "UF has the second-most merit scholars in its freshman class, but on a percentage basis it falls behind other schools."

Yale, Stanford, and...Michigan?!?!? Oh, dear. Well that will be another thread.

exactly my point. too many statistics to be reliable. instead, what people do is hold up the stat that paints them in the most positive light and ignores the rest.

 

[BigIrish]

quote from the same article...

Judging a school by the number of national merit scholars is "inappropriate" and can lead to "invalid conclusions," National Merit Scholarship Corp. spokeswoman Gloria Davis said in a statement.

 

[JG22]

I think it was made clear that the discussion was focused on the football program's less than stellar graduation rates, not the student body as a whole.

Actually, only the last post or two discussed football graduation rates. The prior 3 pages ripped on UF as a school overall.
Feel free to read back over the first 3 pages to see if I am right.

Now.....

For real? Show me YOUR research then. Show me 1) where you pulled a stat like that, and 2) how you can justify making a claim like that when anyone that works in higher education knows that rankings of that nature mean nothing because they are literally impossible to prove and are never published by a truly independent entity.

I'll answer #2 first. The ranking is pretty easy to figure out. It is calculated by a simple method: finding out how many National Merit Scholars are enrolled at school. The simple fact is that there are more National Merit Scholars enrolled at UF than any other school in the country, save Harvard. It is not impossible to prove, just look at the number enrolled in school.
Now, where did I find this ranking?
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2005news/meritschol05.htm

Any more questions?

 

[JG22]

Wow...I come back and there are 5 posts on the subject. My bad.

But, my point wasn't to say UF is the best....it was simply to say that it is a very good school.

I did not interpret the ranking, I just stated the fact...that in a pure count of number of merit scholars, UF has more than anyone else, other than Harvard. Even in schools that are larger (Texas, Michigan, etc.) UF has more.

Again, my intent is to dispel the notion of people here that UF is a bad school.

 

[Rip Rap]

Wow...I come back and there are 5 posts on the subject. My bad.

But, my point wasn't to say UF is the best....it was simply to say that it is a very good school.

In all honesty, I think most everybody here would acknowledge that.

The graduation rates for football are questionable though. Given what came out about tOhio State University recently (regarding football classes, etc.), people are pretty skeptical of some major state university programs.

 

[sblxdoc]

if 2 people go into a job interview with the exact same qualifications, similar personalities but the only difference is 1 had a degree from nd and 1 from florida, guarantee the nd grad gets the job. no doubt you get a solid education at florida as with many colleges and universities. but the point is, these athletes that need to prepare for life after football, which most probably won't last that long in the nfl if they even make it into the nfl, obviously aren't taking this into consideration on the school they are choosing. they are choosing based on their potential to succeed as an athlete, not on their potential to succeed in life.

 

[BigIrish]

Yeah...great analysis. You failed to note one thing:

"But the numbers don't tell the whole story. UF has the second-most merit scholars in its freshman class, but on a percentage basis it falls behind other schools. UF also works harder to attract students by awarding more national merit scholarships than any other university in the nation."

So all i have to do is start handing out merit award scholarships and suddenly i'm the number one public school in the nation? hooray!

what kind of logic is that? its over-simplified, narrow-minded and just plain false advertising. UF is playing a numbers game here. clearly you've bought it hook, line and sinker.

what - no insightful analysis on the dismal grad rates for UF football players?

 

[JG22]

The graduation rates for football are questionable though. Given what came out about tOhio State University recently (regarding football classes, etc.), people are pretty skeptical of some major state university programs.

I agree. I wish they were better, but there are a lot of factors that go into those rates that make us look worse than we are.
We lose a lot of guys to the NFL early. We also have guys that leave after football season of their senior year, skipping that spring semester. All of those guys hurt the grad rate, though they may come back and complete a degree.
We also have a lot of transfers out of the school, and those all count as non-graduates (for some odd reason), even if they graduate at their new school.

But, just because some athletes don't take advantage of what they are given does not mean that the school is bad.

Actually, I would prefer that our school not just graduate players (as some schools do) despite the fact that they should not graduate. That would be the greater crime, IMO, and that would do the greater damage to the university's reputation.

 

[JG22]

Yeah...great analysis. You failed to note one thing:

"But the numbers don't tell the whole story. UF has the second-most merit scholars in its freshman class, but on a percentage basis it falls behind other schools. UF also works harder to attract students by awarding more national merit scholarships than any other university in the nation."

So all i have to do is start handing out merit award scholarships and suddenly i'm the number one public school in the nation? hooray!

what kind of logic is that? its over-simplified, narrow-minded and just plain false advertising. UF is playing a numbers game here. clearly you've bought it hook, line and sinker.

what - no insightful analysis on the dismal grad rates for UF football players?

UF doesn't make them National Merit Scholars. They just attract a large number to the school.

How is that false advertising? You don't become a NMS by getting a scholarship. You can get a scholarship by BEING a NMS.
UF attracts more than anyone else....thus there is no need to false advertise, it is true there are more NMS at UF than any other school, save Harvard. Is that not true?

 

[JG22]

if 2 people go into a job interview with the exact same qualifications, similar personalities but the only difference is 1 had a degree from nd and 1 from florida, guarantee the nd grad gets the job. no doubt you get a solid education at florida as with many colleges and universities. but the point is, these athletes that need to prepare for life after football, which most probably won't last that long in the nfl if they even make it into the nfl, obviously aren't taking this into consideration on the school they are choosing. they are choosing based on their potential to succeed as an athlete, not on their potential to succeed in life.

Maybe, maybe not.

If I am an Accountant or an Engineer or the like....I sure am not going to Notre Dame.
So, there are SOME jobs where that might be true...some where it is not.


But athletes are a whole different story.

 

[BigIrish]

I agree. I wish they were better, but there are a lot of factors that go into those rates that make us look worse than we are.
We lose a lot of guys to the NFL early. We also have guys that leave after football season of their senior year, skipping that spring semester. All of those guys hurt the grad rate, though they may come back and complete a degree.
We also have a lot of transfers out of the school, and those all count as non-graduates (for some odd reason), even if they graduate at their new school.

But, just because some athletes don't take advantage of what they are given does not mean that the school is bad.

Actually, I would prefer that our school not just graduate players (as some schools do) despite the fact that they should not graduate. That would be the greater crime, IMO, and that would do the greater damage to the university's reputation.

much better rationale. sorry to get so fired up.

 

[Rip Rap]

Maybe, maybe not.

But athletes are a whole different story.

"Student and athlete, they go together." - Charlie Weis

Anyway, I agree with the statement before that. Hope you stop by often. It's always more fun when some intelligent representatives of the enemy stop by. And since we'll never meet outside the context of a bowl game, good luck with Meyer until that day.

 

[JG22]

"Student and athlete, they go together." - Charlie Weis

Anyway, I agree with the statement before that. Hope you stop by often. It's always more fun when some intelligent representatives of the enemy stop by. And since we'll never meet outside the context of a bowl game, good luck with Meyer until that day.

I meant, most athletes don't go to a school because of a particluar degree....not that they should have a separate standard or something.

Anyways. I really like this site, it looks good. I definitely plan to stop by every so often.

 

[jiggafini19]

"Student and athlete, they go together." - Charlie Weis

These are the kind of people ND needs and wants anyway. Those that don't get it need not apply.

You can have an NFL career, but it won't last forever. A degree from the Dome most certainly will. The power of networking.....