Is Kelly a REALLY good coach?

[MNIrishman]

What does this even mean??

Sounds like he's saying that if a program would consider a national title out of reach, then that program should not be considered "top tier." In other words, the "choice" is between top tier, and with it, national title expectations, or merely "good" with no meaningful national title expectations.

 

[Cali_domer]

I feel like BK is way more respected outside of South Bend. I think he is widely considered one of the top college guys, most of us are just blinded by disappointment and unrealistic expectations. He is considered a great "CEO" with an emphasis on offense, both priorities in today's NFL. Maybe losing 5/6 games down the stretch will negate some of his appeal. Still don't think he leaves but that's not due to there being little interest in him.

Actually among other fan bases he is seen a a egomanic with a bad temper. Now throw on top the bad decisions he has made coaching people view him as an average coach. A gauge is if other fan bases want your coach and I can't find one that wants Kelly(Minus low teams).

Besides his agent or Mort(who shares agents)where else are people clamoring for Kelly? The random person mentions he maybe wanted by an NFL team, goodness knows where that was leaked.maybe trance Armstrong leaked it?

 

[Rocket89]

I feel like BK is way more respected outside of South Bend. I think he is widely considered one of the top college guys, most of us are just blinded by disappointment and unrealistic expectations. He is considered a great "CEO" with an emphasis on offense, both priorities in today's NFL. Maybe losing 5/6 games down the stretch will negate some of his appeal. Still don't think he leaves but that's not due to there being little interest in him.

This is generally true.

As fans we are too close and see too many faults. Not that there isn't a lot of merit to seeing things so intensely but there's a lot of making mountains out of mole hills. Generally speaking, the national perspective can see the piles of injuries on defense and say, "Yeah that's brutal makes sense why they'd have a tough ending month" and just move on without putting Kelly on trial. It's a lot harder for the ND fan base to do that, rightly or wrongly.

In that respect, it's easy to see why Kelly is still someone the NFL is intrigued by. Again we're so close and without a title and a bunch of top ten finishes it can be difficult to understand why but that's because the national perspective tends to respect how hard it is to win at Notre Dame.

That said, I don't think he'll work all that well in the NFL and I do think the rumors of him being sought after are a little blown out of proportion.

 

[Cali_domer]

This is generally true.

As fans we are too close and see too many faults. Not that there isn't a lot of merit to seeing things so intensely but there's a lot of making mountains out of mole hills. Generally speaking, the national perspective can see the piles of injuries on defense and say, "Yeah that's brutal makes sense why they'd have a tough ending month" and just move on without putting Kelly on trial. It's a lot harder for the ND fan base to do that, rightly or wrongly.

In that respect, it's easy to see why Kelly is still someone the NFL is intrigued by. Again we're so close and without a title and a bunch of top ten finishes it can be difficult to understand why but that's because the national perspective tends to respect how hard it is to win at Notre Dame.

That said, I don't think he'll work all that well in the NFL and I do think the rumors of him being sought after are a little blown out of proportion.

If he would win people would ease up on him. Now the pressure would be there but7-5 in year five is not good enough no matter the excuses.

 

[Rocket89]

If he would win people would ease up on him. Now the pressure would be there but7-5 in year five is not good enough no matter the excuses.

Cool, but you're arguing against a point I haven't made.

 

[Rocket89]

Sounds like he's saying that if a program would consider a national title out of reach, then that program should not be considered "top tier." In other words, the "choice" is between top tier, and with it, national title expectations, or merely "good" with no meaningful national title expectations.

Oh, okay? Who is making this choice? And what does it have to do with the quoted posters point?

 

[irishtrain]

This guy is one of the top 3-5 coaches in the country. If he was at a place where the wins were not qualified in any way by the academics he'd be looked upon as one of the best in the country. He's at a school that college football or shall I say the 'industry' of college football has passed by. He coached the way he did this year because of his lack of certain players at certain positions. He's not the fool you guys seem to think he is. Notre Dame's problem is not Brian Kelly.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Oh, okay? Who is making this choice? And what does it have to do with the quoted posters point?

He said that the idea that BK isn't elite comes from "unrealistic expectations". That expectation is, I think, winning national titles. If we as a fan base are going to call that "unrealistic", we should not consider ourselves an elite program.

 

[Cali_domer]

This guy is one of the top 3-5 coaches in the country. If he was at a place where the wins were not qualified in any way by the academics he'd be looked upon as one of the best in the country. He's at a school that college football or shall I say the 'industry' of college football has passed by. He coached the way he did this year because of his lack of certain players at certain positions. He's not the fool you guys seem to think he is. Notre Dame's problem is not Brian Kelly.

I agree Brian isn't the only problem but he definitely holds some blame(Quite a bit IMO). If Stanford can win at a good level(with their history and not great recruiting)we can compete at an elite level. Stanford has NO history to hang their hat on, they found a good coach and put together a great run(Especially for an also ran Stanford)

Meyer
Saban
Miles
Briles ---- Recruits worse then us and actually develops
Patterson Recruits worse then us and actually develops
Oregon Coach's- All of them recruit worse
Fisher Don't like him but they win
Stoops Struggling but still better
Dantonio - Winning at MSU? quality coaching
David Cutcliffe- Winning at Duke?
Bill Snyder
Gus Malzahn
Bobby Petrino

There is others but I'm tired of writing.. Kelly is not ELITE. He is Meh, Good. But his record here shows who and what he is.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Top 3-5 coach in the independent league maybe.

 

[Rocket89]

He said that the idea that BK isn't elite comes from "unrealistic expectations". That expectation is, I think, winning national titles. If we as a fan base are going to call that "unrealistic", we should not consider ourselves an elite program.

This just seems like a terribly black and white way of looking at it, to say nothing of making things way too simplistic.

To the posters point, if you think the difference between Kelly being viewed as a top college coach and respected by some NFL teams is whether he's winning titles and coaching an elite program at Notre Dame or not, then yes that is being blinded by disappointment and unrealistic expectations.

Which goes back to the other point that in general the national media have a lot of respect for Kelly for the work he's done (on the whole) at Notre Dame.

 

[GoldenDomer]

This just seems like a terribly black and white way of looking at it, to say nothing of making things way too simplistic.

To the posters point, if you think the difference between Kelly being viewed as a top college coach and respected by some NFL teams is whether he's winning titles and coaching an elite program at Notre Dame or not, then yes that is being blinded by disappointment and unrealistic expectations.

Which goes back to the other point that in general the national media have a lot of respect for Kelly for the work he's done (on the whole) at Notre Dame.

If you take away 2012, which we all loved but ended in embarrassing fashion, what would the outside world say?

When you're a name brand program and averaging a top 10 recruiting class, you should win 10 games a year.

 

[Cali_domer]

Top 3-5 coach in the independent league maybe.

That I can agree on... Out of all the independents in the whole nation he maybe top 3.

 

[Cali_domer]

If you take away 2012, which we all loved but ended in embarrassing fashion, what would the outside world say?

When you're a name brand program and averaging a top 10 recruiting class, you should win 10 games a year.

Answer- Mediocre

 

[ickythump1225]

I agree Brian isn't the only problem but he definitely holds some blame(Quite a bit IMO). If Stanford can win at a good level(with their history and not great recruiting)we can compete at an elite level. Stanford has NO history to hang their hat on, they found a good coach and put together a great run(Especially for an also ran Stanford)

Meyer
Saban
Miles
Briles ---- Recruits worse then us and actually develops
Patterson Recruits worse then us and actually develops
Oregon Coach's- All of them recruit worse
Fisher Don't like him but they win
Stoops Struggling but still better
Dantonio - Winning at MSU? quality coaching
David Cutcliffe- Winning at Duke?
Bill Snyder
Gus Malzahn
Bobby Petrino

There is others but I'm tired of writing.. Kelly is not ELITE. He is Meh, Good. But his record here shows who and what he is.

I'm not sure that I would put Les Miles ahead of BK. While I think no coach does less with more than Mark Richt, Les Miles is a close second.

 

[Cali_domer]

I'm not sure that I would put Les Miles ahead of BK. While I think no coach does less with more than Mark Richt, Les Miles is a close second.

Same could be said of BK, our classes are ranked pretty high.

 

[GoldenDomer]

That I can agree on... Out of all the independents in the whole nation he maybe top 3.

Ken Niumatalolo has averaged 7-8 wins at NAVY.

BK has averaged 1 game better at Notre Dame...

 

[Rocket89]

If you take away 2012, which we all loved but ended in embarrassing fashion, what would the outside world say?

When you're a name brand program and averaging a top 10 recruiting class, you should win 10 games a year.

I don't think you understand.

I really don't care to sit here and argue with you about whether Kelly is doing bad, fine, or great at Notre Dame. Nothing I say will budge you from your POV on Kelly's performance. You want to start throwing out seasons--awesome good for you.

The point remains that as of right now Kelly is still viewed quite favorably by the bulk of the national media and he's done enough at ND to still have that respect. They don't make fan based chest thumping declarations like "He's not winning titles" or "He's not winning 10 games a season" to still think Kelly is still a good coach.

 

[GoldenDomer]

I don't think you understand.

I really don't care to sit here and argue with you about whether Kelly is doing bad, fine, or great at Notre Dame. Nothing I say will budge you from your POV on Kelly's performance. You want to start throwing out seasons--awesome good for you.

The point remains that as of right now Kelly is still viewed quite favorably by the bulk of the national media and he's done enough at ND to still have that respect. They don't make fan based chest thumping declarations like "He's not winning titles" or "He's not winning 10 games a season" to still think Kelly is still a good coach.

Then idk what they would base him being a good coach on... his charisma? If I was an NFL owner going to spend millions on a coach, I would go for a guy who has been a proven winner. I'm just not sure what else you can base a coach's achievement on besides wins.

 

[DogDaysIrish]

Ken Niumatalolo has averaged 7-8 wins at NAVY.

BK has averaged 1 game better at Notre Dame...

That's kind of damning, isn't it? Yikes.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Then idk what they would base him being a good coach on... his charisma? If I was an NFL owner going to spend millions on a coach, I would go for a guy who has been a proven winner. I'm just not sure what else you can base a coach's achievement on besides wins.

Basing a coach's achievement on wins would be exactly what an NFL owner would be doing.

214–77–2

Kelly has won a ton of football games over his career, and to make a judgement based on his time at Notre Dame alone would be a horrible decision. Relative to his coaching career, his time at Notre Dame is a fairly small sample size, and shouldn't discredit his ability to coach. I think it would be more realistic to state he isn't a good coach at Notre Dame, than to generalize him as being a bad coach overall. Basically, Kelly is favored by many because of his whole body of work and not just for his time at Notre Dame. If Kelly has a bad season next year, and is canned, I will almost guarantee the media's tune will be that if Kelly can't win at Notre Dame, than no one can.

 

[SoIll]

kelly is a good coach, great? I don't know yet. He's the best realistic option, and i'm glad we have him. But I will say, these coaches that recruit a lot worse than us and are constantly top 25 teams. Those coaches sure know how to develop talent..

 

[GoldenDomer]

Basing a coach's achievement on wins would be exactly what an NFL owner would be doing.

214–77–2

Kelly has won a ton of football games over his career, and to make a judgement based on his time at Notre Dame alone would be a horrible decision. Relative to his coaching career, his time at Notre Dame is a fairly small sample size, and shouldn't discredit his ability to coach. I think it would be more realistic to state he isn't a good coach at Notre Dame, than to generalize him as being a bad coach overall. Basically, Kelly is favored by many because of his whole body of work and not just for his time at Notre Dame. If Kelly has a bad season next year, and is canned, I will almost guarantee the media's tune will be that if Kelly can't win at Notre Dame, than no one can.

This works, except that he spent 12 years in D2. If we didn't have a great record there, you wouldn't even know his name. It's not like he racked up 200 wins at other Power 5 schools then had a slip up at Notre Dame. This has been by FAR his biggest job, and he hasn't been that great at it.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Pelini won 9 games a year at Nebraska and they showed him the door...

 

[Irishbounty28]

This works, except that he spent 12 years in D2. If we didn't have a great record there, you wouldn't even know his name. It's not like he racked up 200 wins at other Power 5 schools then had a slip up at Notre Dame. This has been by FAR his biggest job, and he hasn't been that great at it.

I don't understand this rationale at all. You are discounting his time at D2 in your first sentence, and then your follow up is that if it weren't for his time there I wouldn't even know his name?

 

[pkt77242]

Basing a coach's achievement on wins would be exactly what an NFL owner would be doing.

214–77–2

Kelly has won a ton of football games over his career, and to make a judgement based on his time at Notre Dame alone would be a horrible decision. Relative to his coaching career, his time at Notre Dame is a fairly small sample size, and shouldn't discredit his ability to coach. I think it would be more realistic to state he isn't a good coach at Notre Dame, than to generalize him as being a bad coach overall. Basically, Kelly is favored by many because of his whole body of work and not just for his time at Notre Dame. If Kelly has a bad season next year, and is canned, I will almost guarantee the media's tune will be that if Kelly can't win at Notre Dame, than no one can.

First off people aren't calling him a bad coach, they are just saying that he isn't an elite coach. There is a big difference between the two.

Also coaching is like many other professions in that you get promoted until you fail. Someone can be a great D2 coach or Mid-Major coach but not a great elite program coach (just as someone can be a great entry-level manager or mid-level manager but not be executive material). I am not saying that this is the case for Kelly but it is something to think about.

 

[GoldenDomer]

I don't understand this rationale at all. You are discounting his time at D2 in your first sentence, and then your follow up is that if it weren't for his time there I wouldn't even know his name?

I'm saying his total record is not nearly impressive as his D1 record.

He HAD to be great in D2 to make the jump. Now he is at the pinnacle of college football and under achieving.

 

[phillyirish]

Ken Niumatalolo has averaged 7-8 wins at NAVY.

BK has averaged 1 game better at Notre Dame...

Niumatalolo averages 8 wins a year and has only had less than that once. So what? Why are we comparing ourselves to Navy? In fact since 2003 Navy has only had one losing season, in comparison Alabama has had 3 when even considering the vacated wins. Does that mean Navy has been better program than Bama over the past decade?

Obviously the schedules are different levels. Even said, Niumatalolo is a great coach. But him being a great coach is irrelevant to whether Brian Kelly is one too.

 

[Irishbounty28]

I'm saying his total record is not nearly impressive as his D1 record.

He HAD to be great in D2 to make the jump. Now he is at the pinnacle of college football and under achieving.

His D1 record is pulled down by his first two seasons at Central Michigan. So since we are throwing away his D2 record, we might as well throw away his time at Central Michigan as well, because that isn't "Big time" football.

Only including his time at Cincinnati and Notre Dame his record is 78-26 .750. His win percentage at Grand Valley was .761. So taking away his time at Central Michigan his win percentage is eerily similar. Kelly was a good coach in D2 and is still a good coach.

Essentially, the argument made by the outside and NFL people is that his overall success outweighs his woes at Notre Dame. I would tend to agree with this after watching the last two decades of Notre Dame football. Are there better coaches? Sure. Is Kelly a good coach? Yes

 

[GoldenDomer]

Niumatalolo averages 8 wins a year and has only had less than that once. So what? Why are we comparing ourselves to Navy? In fact since 2003 Navy has only had one losing season, in comparison Alabama has had 3 when even considering the vacated wins. Does that mean Navy has been better program than Bama over the past decade?

Obviously the schedules are different levels. Even said, Niumatalolo is a great coach. But him being a great coach is irrelevant to whether Brian Kelly is one too.

To answer your question, because Cali Domer was talking about where he ranks compared to other Independent coaches.