I respect MSU, but..............

[kmoose]

Michigan State is a great academic institution, and (for the most part) a class university. But...............

After the flag planting antic this year, I am curious to see how the team reacts next year. I wouldn't put it past Charlie to bury them, should the opportunity present itself. I don't mean to condone running up the score on anyone, but...........if it happened to MSU next year, then it couldn't happen to a more deserving team, IMO.

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

I think we've already gotten a little redemption. Look at what we did to Purdue this year.

I actually do condone running up the score against a team of brats. When ND plays MSU next year, I can't wait to see the blowout.

It's too bad we don't play BC until '07, because that's another team I would like to see us destroy.

 

[VictorsValiant]

Having respect for MSU is the first step towards losing to them. They are not a good academic institution, though they're also not bad. I would say they're average. They are second fiddle in the state of Michigan, and a lot of their students are closet wolverine fans who weren't smart enough to get into ann arbor. They are led by a football coach who calls out everyone but himself. You think anyone has respect for him anymore after the OSU debacle? It's fitting that his team lost almost all their games after that loss. Their football team can't beat anyone who's good except ND (we'll see if you guys are actually good next year).

 

[Rip Rap]

They are not a good academic institution, though they're also not bad. I would say they're average.

My interest in MSU's academics is limited to the fact they are loosely affiliated with a Lord Acton Institute and gave the world Russell Kirk. Schools with poorer academic reputation ratings are usually doing something that threatens the academic elite. Michigan is regarded as a superior academic institution, this is true. But for precisely the same reason, many-including myself-look at what they're doing in Ann Arbor with greater suspicion.

We have no business losing to MSU in football, but they were very powerful under Duffy Daugherty. Through history they are not chumps.

 

[BGIF]

It doesn't make it right but you can understand why a school that is "not a good academic institution" doesn't have a good graduation rate for it's athletes.

What I've never understood is how an elite academic institution that can put so many astronauts in Space has such a poor record graduating it's minority athletes. One might get the impression they were only using them.

 

[VictorsValiant]

I don't know what you mean by "greater suspicion" What exactly is Michigan doing that's so threatening? Aff. Action?

Russell Kirk was merely a student at MSU. He went on to grad school at Duke, hardly a conservative bastion. I don't think you're right when you say that average schools challenge the academic elite. In fact, it is precisely in those average schools where liberal ideologues IMPOSE their beliefs on others. At least here, you have profs. who are more nuanced. Though I do understand what you're saying. When I take a moderate/conservative position every once in a while, I get dropped by some professors. Not all of them do it, but some do, and it's unfortunate.

In response to BGIF's comments. It works the other way too. You are right. Michigan's graduation rates for black athletes is really low, which kinda sounds ironic in a way. However, some players come here to play football and football only. No one forces you to do anything here. You have to be proactive. So are, and some aren't. But a lot of the football players don't really have to fall back on academics, at least for now, since they are pro prospects.

Michigan recognized a long time ago (and ND will in the future), that in order to be good at football, you have to make compromises. They haven't used players. They've simply given them a choice.

 

[Rip Rap]

I don't know what you mean by "greater suspicion" What exactly is Michigan doing that's so threatening? Aff. Action?

Russell Kirk was merely a student at MSU. He went on to grad school at Duke, hardly a conservative bastion. I don't think you're right when you say that average schools challenge the academic elite. In fact, it is precisely in those average schools where liberal ideologues IMPOSE their beliefs on others. At least here, you have profs. who are more nuanced. Though I do understand what you're saying. When I take a moderate/conservative position every once in a while, I get dropped by some professors. Not all of them do it, but some do, and it's unfortunate.

Michigan State is also where he taught. You may be right, but my time at MIT was very disenchanting. At the highest level of the academe there is an accepted canon with one or two professors usually in the entire university subscribing to alternative beliefs (generating a cult following). Yet whole schools of thought are swept under the rug with disparaging remarks about Voegelin or Strauss or Nisbet or whomever (and especially anybody truly classical or medieval), and when you look in journals like 'Modern Age' it seems the professors writing in them are from far less 'reputable' schools. Michigan is a first-tier state university, certainly one of the top-5 public universities in the country in academic resources, and so I suspect their faculty would be more closely allied to what I am familiar with and what I oppose.

In response to BGIF's comments. It works the other way too. You are right. Michigan's graduation rates for black athletes is really low, which kinda sounds ironic in a way. However, some players come here to play football and football only. No one forces you to do anything here. You have to be proactive. So are, and some aren't. But a lot of the football players don't really have to fall back on academics, at least for now, since they are pro prospects.

Michigan recognized a long time ago (and ND will in the future), that in order to be good at football, you have to make compromises. They haven't used players. They've simply given them a choice.

If true, that defeats the purpose of a university, which is to educate the total person.

 

[Gizmo]

Michigan's graduation rates for black athletes is really low, which kinda sounds ironic in a way. However, some players come here to play football and football only. No one forces you to do anything here. You have to be proactive. So are, and some aren't. But a lot of the football players don't really have to fall back on academics, at least for now, since they are pro prospects.

Michigan recognized a long time ago (and ND will in the future), that in order to be good at football, you have to make compromises. They haven't used players. They've simply given them a choice.

First of all, we will never compromise. Priority #1 will always be educating and graduating our football players, and football will suffer before education does. But I guarantee you the big timers at ND, whether it be the administration or the alumni or both, will never let our football team fall to the wayside.

And secondly, a very small percentage of Div. I athletes will ever earn a living playing professional sports. So for football players to not realize this and place all their eggs in the NFL basket is a gamble not worth taking. Notre Dame realizes this and only admits athletes with the tools to succeed at ND. These kids are supervised very closely to make sure that they put in the time and effort to succeed on their own.

Bringing kids to your university with the intent to "use" them in order to win and make money with your football program is wrong. If they provide you with excellence on the football field, you better make damn sure you provide them with an excellent education. Football can always be taken away from a young man; a degree cannot.

 

[VictorsValiant]

First of all, we will never compromise. Priority #1 will always be educating and graduating our football players, and football will suffer before education does. But I guarantee you the big timers at ND, whether it be the administration or the alumni or both, will never let our football team fall to the wayside.

This is a contradictory remark. You say you'll always prioritize academics, but you then "guarantee" that football will never "fall to the wayside." You can't have it both ways. With the way college football is today, it's unlikely that ND can maintain their academic expectations without losing talent in football. You already see this with Duke, where just 10 years ago, it was unheard of for a player to declare for the NBA before their senior season. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you will essentially have to pick all the good/smart football players in the country. And that's pretty much saying that Stanford, Virginia, Michigan, UCLA and even USC will not take some of those recruits away.



And secondly, a very small percentage of Div. I athletes will ever earn a living playing professional sports. So for football players to not realize this and place all their eggs in the NFL basket is a gamble not worth taking. Notre Dame realizes this and only admits athletes with the tools to succeed at ND. These kids are supervised very closely to make sure that they put in the time and effort to succeed on their own.

There are 117 D-1 schools, but Michigan gets the cream of the crop every year in recruiting (Lloyd does do well in that area). Granted, not all the players who play for us or ND or even USC/Texas go onto the NFL, but the liklihood that they will increases.





Bringing kids to your university with the intent to "use" them in order to win and make money with your football program is wrong. If they provide you with excellence on the football field, you better make damn sure you provide them with an excellent education. Football can always be taken away from a young man; a degree cannot.

You can't force someone to learn. That's what I meant by "choice." The University of Michigan is a big school. No one is forced to learn. You can go 4 years without talking to an academic advisor. What the football team tells it's players is the same thing the school tells it's students. You are responsible for your own education. The only exception football players get is being admitted in the first place (lower standards etc...)

 

[Rip Rap]

You can go 4 years without talking to an academic advisor.

That's pathetic. But then again, based on my other argument, that could be a good thing.

 

[Irish Legend]

Having respect for MSU is the first step towards losing to them. They are not a good academic institution, though they're also not bad. I would say they're average. They are second fiddle in the state of Michigan, and a lot of their students are closet wolverine fans who weren't smart enough to get into ann arbor. They are led by a football coach who calls out everyone but himself. You think anyone has respect for him anymore after the OSU debacle? It's fitting that his team lost almost all their games after that loss. Their football team can't beat anyone who's good except ND (we'll see if you guys are actually good next year).

Why hasn't this ND hater been banned yet? VictorsValiant is a moron who comes on this site to spew his illogical hatred for a school that has high educational and moral standards.

Off with his head!

 

[Rip Rap]

Why hasn't this ND hater been banned yet? VictorsValiant is a moron who comes on this site to spew his illogical hatred for a school that has high educational and moral standards.
Off with his head!

In my opinion, thus far, he has made arguments (albeit bizzare ones). He has not spouted anything inflamatory and has not shown up with empty accusations like some others that haven't been banned. Svoboda has generally preferred not to ban people.

 

[Irish Legend]

In my opinion, thus far, he has made arguments (albeit bizzare ones). He has not spouted anything inflamatory and has not shown up with empty threats like some others that haven't been banned. Svoboda has generally preferred not to ban people.

It's just everywhere I turn this clown is bad mouthing ND about anything and everything! It gets under my skin after awhile. I guess that's what he's here for since there is nothing positive to talk about on the Michigan forums.

 

[Rip Rap]

It's just everywhere I turn this clown is bad mouthing ND about anything and everything! It gets under my skin after awhile. I guess that's what he's here for since there is nothing positive to talk about on the Michigan forums.

See, I read this, and I think he's bad-mouthing Michigan. He is esentially arguing that their lack of standards is a virtue.

 

[irish4life99]

Michigan State is a great academic institution, and (for the most part) a class university. But...............
After the flag planting antic this year, I am curious to see how the team reacts next year. I wouldn't put it past Charlie to bury them, should the opportunity present itself. I don't mean to condone running up the score on anyone, but...........if it happened to MSU next year, then it couldn't happen to a more deserving team, IMO.

It's the same ol same ol with MSU. There style of offense has just matched up very we'll with our style of D. Kinda of the same with Stanford this year. Remember, the last time we beat them was Ty's first year and that was essentially Davie's D which was still intact. Once we get our D straightened out we will destroy them year in, and year out. I think we beat them next year, and then destroy them in 2007, 08, 09, 10...... I really want to take out BC in 2007. After taking away a NC and coming into ND beating us, then tearing up our locker rooms I have no love for them. I was hoping they would lose the smurf bowl this year.

 

[Vince Young]

I say let VV jaw all he wants to. I may disagree with most of his arguments, but he's usually polite, and I've never seen him stoop to any sort of a personal attack.

Hey, if he wants to waste his valuable time by riling up Irish fans, let him. Besides, nobody's forcing you to read his posts...

 

[bigdon]

I say let VV jaw all he wants to. I may disagree with most of his arguments, but he's usually polite, and I've never seen him stoop to any sort of a personal attack.
Hey, if he wants to waste his valuable time by riling up Irish fans, let him. Besides, nobody's forcing you to read his posts...

Vince, I agree with you but you have to admit that the argument that Mich does not graduate it's minority athletes because it gives them the "choice" is a little over the edge. That's like saying we should let criminals have guns because we GIVE the the CHOICE to use them or not

But, let him go on.

 

[Vince Young]

Well, he has a point. If Michigan's minority athletes choose not to study or work on a diploma, that IS their choice, and they'll pay the price for it later. Actions have consequences.

That said, I do think Michigan as a university should make more of a proactive effort to graduate their athletes. Look at how Charlie Weis has done with that so far. Heck, that was one of the few things we used to give Ty credit for, graduating his players, and thus far Charlie has done an even better job. Michigan has a fine academic reputation, but it's sullied by the graduation rate of their minority athletes. Yeah, it's their choice, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try to get them to choose better.

 

[jiggafini19]

I almost went to Michigan State. I fell in love with the school on my visit there (It was ten years ago this past Fall. Yikes).

I was intrigued by their academics because I was going to go there for my degree. I had no illusions about my future in football. There seemed to be enough resources there for me to get the job done in four or five years.

There are schools that graduate players, schools that can and let the players decide what they want to do and schools that just flat out don't care at all. To me, the first and third schools are the only ones I can respect. You either educate these guys or you don't.

scUM seems to allow their players the option of using the resources or not. Their academic reputation is a good one, but you'd never know it by the football and men's basketball teams.

You're in for a penny or in for a pound. Everyone should have to graduate. Letting a guy decide how hard he wants to work in class and turning a blind eye to the ones that just want to play ball is gutless. You're just selling out.

 

[irish4life99]

Vince, I agree with you but you have to admit that the argument that Mich does not graduate it's minority athletes because it gives them the "choice" is a little over the edge. That's like saying we should let criminals have guns because we GIVE the the CHOICE to use them or not
But, let him go on.

Yeah, who cares if these kids get an education! I mean really, there just there to play football right. As long as the boosters and fans are happy what else really matters? I mean everyone of them has a bright future in the NFL making tons of money and can never get injured. Just ask Morice Cellret (sp?); he's a perfect example!

 

[BigIrish]

i hate msu as a sports school. but i've been on campus and checked out many degree programs. and with a school this size, it's impossible to make any statement about the overal academic integrity or prowess of the school. it's too broad of a stroke. like u-m, and every other institution that size, it has academic programs where it excels and programs where it falls behind.

for the average undergraduate student, msu may not be as academically rigorous as u-m. but it's simply foolish to apply that standard across the board, and i would question the credibility of anyone who attempted to do so.

 

[bigdon]

I almost went to Michigan State. I fell in love with the school on my visit there (It was ten years ago this past Fall. Yikes).
I was intrigued by their academics because I was going to go there for my degree. I had no illusions about my future in football. There seemed to be enough resources there for me to get the job done in four or five years.
There are schools that graduate players, schools that can and let the players decide what they want to do and schools that just flat out don't care at all. To me, the first and third schools are the only ones I can respect. You either educate these guys or you don't.
scUM seems to allow their players the option of using the resources or not. Their academic reputation is a good one, but you'd never know it by the football and men's basketball teams.
You're in for a penny or in for a pound. Everyone should have to graduate. Letting a guy decide how hard he wants to work in class and turning a blind eye to the ones that just want to play ball is gutless. You're just selling out.

As stupid as his "choice" statement is I have to give an A Plus to VV for his uniqueness. I have never heard the "choice" argument before as an excuse for not graduating athletes.

Usually, schools that don't graduate them are smart enough to remain silent or blame the NCAA statistics.

If Mich is so gratious in granting athletes the "choice" do they give them the same "choice" if they don't feel like practicing today?