I feel sad

[IrishinSyria]

Why do I feel sad? Because the news coming out of Florida and So Cal is a once in a generation opening in recruiting. And though ND could very well be better off because of it (I'm looking at you Prater) it's not in an ideal position to take advantage because its going through its own regime change. Now, obviously, there's no way to have known sneaky Pete and Urban "drama" Meyer were going to decide that college coaching wasn't fun anymore, but can you imagine what would be happening right now if CW and co, minus Tenuta, were on the trail? ND would have landed an amazing class.

That being said, this post is not: criticism of Kelly, a call for CW to be brought back, or an effort to fight battles that have already been lost. It's just me wondering what might have been if Jimmy's toe ad been better this year. (That's right, I've decided the entire failure of a season can be blamed on those torn ligaments. The reasoning behind it is long, but the main point is that the turning point in the season was that fumble at the navy one yard line. According to me, if Jimmy had a toe, he would have been able to do something somewhat athletic, thus scoring and ending up beating Navy and avoiding the downward spiral that ate up the rest of their season.)

 

[Maddog77]

Why do I feel sad? Because the news coming out of Florida and So Cal is a once in a generation opening in recruiting. And though ND could very well be better off because of it (I'm looking at you Prater) it's not in an ideal position to take advantage because its going through its own regime change. Now, obviously, there's no way to have known sneaky Pete and Urban "drama" Meyer were going to decide that college coaching wasn't fun anymore, but can you imagine what would be happening right now if CW and co, minus Tenuta, were on the trail? ND would have landed an amazing class.

That being said, this post is not: criticism of Kelly, a call for CW to be brought back, or an effort to fight battles that have already been lost. It's just me wondering what might have been if Jimmy's toe ad been better this year. (That's right, I've decided the entire failure of a season can be blamed on those torn ligaments. The reasoning behind it is long, but the main point is that the turning point in the season was that fumble at the navy one yard line. According to me, if Jimmy had a toe, he would have been able to do something somewhat athletic, thus scoring and ending up beating Navy and avoiding the downward spiral that ate up the rest of their season.)

Yeah, and after CW brought in yet another good recruiting class we could watch him go 6-6 again and continue to not develop the talent to the level of the program. We lost 6 games and almost many more because we didn't develop the players to the level they should have been and because we had an atrocious defense. Jimmy Clausen and Golden Tate were the primary reasons we were able to win the games we did win, injury or not.

The turbulence in both the USC and UF programs is a natural cyclical process that happens to every program in college football at some level or another. The rise of ND football is on the horizon again, imo.

 

[Freeman Ara]

I'll trade one great recruiting class for a great coach that will hopefully win multiple titles over the next decade, any day of the week.

 

[BGIF]

Why do I feel sad? Because the news coming out of Florida and So Cal is a once in a generation opening in recruiting. And though ND could very well be better off because of it (I'm looking at you Prater) it's not in an ideal position to take advantage because its going through its own regime change. Now, obviously, there's no way to have known sneaky Pete and Urban "drama" Meyer were going to decide that college coaching wasn't fun anymore, but can you imagine what would be happening right now if CW and co, minus Tenuta, were on the trail? ND would have landed an amazing class.

That being said, this post is not: criticism of Kelly, a call for CW to be brought back, or an effort to fight battles that have already been lost. It's just me wondering what might have been if Jimmy's toe ad been better this year. (That's right, I've decided the entire failure of a season can be blamed on those torn ligaments. The reasoning behind it is long, but the main point is that the turning point in the season was that fumble at the navy one yard line. According to me, if Jimmy had a toe, he would have been able to do something somewhat athletic, thus scoring and ending up beating Navy and avoiding the downward spiral that ate up the rest of their season.)

Jimmy's toe played a part but so did Floyd's collarbone, Allen's ankle problem, Rudolph's injury, Romine, etc, etc. Then throw in a dash of "controversial" refereeing calls and implausible replay "overrules" to further defuse a high scoring offense.

The defense was suspect preseason. The highpoint was the opener against Nevada. It was all downhilll after that. But if you look at the losses, the defense generally played well enough to win while the offensive production was deficient.

The key injuries definitely hurt but as 1277 comments problems in the program persisted. I've scratched my head at some of Kelly's choices for assistants particularly those with changed position assignments but note Kelly has stressed communication skills among his assistants was crucial to their selectino. I wonder how Latina's, Mendoza's, Oliver's, Tenuta's and Brown's communication skills were. Looking at the defensive play all season it looked the coordinator and DBs coach rarely spoke. They may have been best of friends but the play of their charges didn't look like the coaches were communicating. And it didn't seem like the head coach did much to improve the situation over the years.

 

[BGIF]

I'll trade one great recruiting class for a great coach that will hopefully win multiple titles over the next decade, any day of the week.

If you look back through ND's history you'll find it takes great coaches AND great recruiting classes for ND to be successful.

 

[Merlin]

If you look back through ND's history you'll find it takes great coaches AND great recruiting classes for ND to be successful.

That maybe true, but what equates to a "great recruiting class?"

If your going by the "star system" your pre evaluating the talent available, otherwise you look back on what each recruiting class has achieved, historically. Looking at what Kelly has done, you wouldn't pre-evaluate his classes and think, wow!?! however, if you look back historically, he's done an outstanding job, with no real "big star" recruits.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Why do I feel sad? Because the news coming out of Florida and So Cal is a once in a generation opening in recruiting.

Have you seen Florida's recruiting class? They have 24 commits already, and they still somehow have other studs looking at them. Urban Liar continues to sell them a bill of goods and recruits and their families continue to buy into his bs, hook, line and sucker. There is no opening in recruiting at FL this year, unfortunately...

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

BK has proven to win with 2-3 star guys.

Now he is left with 4-5star guys.
I expect him to do just fine. Especially in two years.

 

[FrankMA]

That maybe true, but what equates to a "great recruiting class?"

If your going by the "star system" your pre evaluating the talent available, otherwise you look back on what each recruiting class has achieved, historically. Looking at what Kelly has done, you wouldn't pre-evaluate his classes and think, wow!?! however, if you look back historically, he's done an outstanding job, with no real "big star" recruits.

If you looked at the star system-teams like Texas and Alabama would have played for the title this year.

 

[Freeman Ara]

If you look back through ND's history you'll find it takes great coaches AND great recruiting classes for ND to be successful.

Yeah I'm aware it takes both to be successful here. The point of the OP is that because CW failed on the field,for a myriad of reasons,we are unable to fully capitilize on the situations going on at UF and USC. Because I believe the recruiting will be there in the future under BK,I'm willing to trade what could have been another great class this cycle for a legit coach.I hope he is legit anyway.

This isn't directed at you BGIF, but just a general comment. I know a lot of people talk about how stars don't matter and look at what Kelly has done with the low rated guys etc. Keep in mind that no class coming into ND as freshman ranked outside the top 10 in the recruiting rankings finished ranked in the top 25 on the field in their senior seasons. These recruiting services for the most part get it right.

 

[BGIF]

That maybe true, but what equates to a "great recruiting class?"

If your going by the "star system" your pre evaluating the talent available, otherwise you look back on what each recruiting class has achieved, historically. Looking at what Kelly has done, you wouldn't pre-evaluate his classes and think, wow!?! however, if you look back historically, he's done an outstanding job, with no real "big star" recruits.

Recruiting classes can be ranked on National Signing Day, in September when the nonqualifiers/MLBB signees/etc are weeded out, and after their class graduates. In my case I was talking abou the latter as I connected it with Great Coaches. They don't get that label before the games are played. It's a career achievement.

Most of the "Great" class in ND history occurred before the "star system" came to be. I don't consider All-Time to start with the birth of Rivals.

Last Spring Lou Somogyi did a series of articles on The Best ND Recruiting Classes. I downloaded all the articles but can't find them now. Probably on the hard drive in the broken computer on the floor. I did find the 9 of the Best 10 in his judgement.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1. 1946 This class never lost a game. Hart, Connor, Sitko[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2. 1990 Jerome Bettis , Bryant Young , Aaron Taylor , Tommy Carter , and Jeff Burris . It was a 23 man class that had 19 kids left as seniors and 2 of the 4 that were no longer there were only gone because they went into the draft and we're first round draft choices (Bettis and Carter) . It's the class that every class since then is measured against . They finished 4th in the country as juniors and a very disputed 2nd as seniors . [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3. 1973 Tom Clements[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4. 1987 Ricky Watters, Todd Lyght, Chris[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5. 1968 Tom Gatewood, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6. 1951 Ralph Guglielmi, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]7. 1963[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]8, 1959[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9. ?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10.1986[/FONT]

Leahy had two of the classes during the most successful period of ND football.
Holtz had 3. Thank you Vinnie Cerrato. Holtz had none after Cerrato's departure.
The Great Classes of '59 and '63 came under Kuharich and Devore. Dark days for ND's success on the field. Great material on campus when Parshegian arrived.
Ara gets credit for the ''68 and 73 Class.

Faust had a bunch of solid classes but Somogyi didn't chose them in his Top 10.

 

[IrishinSyria]

A few responses.

A: Of course I realize Jimmy's toe wasn't the only reason for this season's disappointing results- injury, bad calls (both by opposing refs and our own coaches), poorer than expected performance, speed in the secondary and size on the d-line, Kamara's slip, and a thousand other factors all played into the results of this season. And to top it all off, Jimmy actually played freakishly well despite his injury, with help from Tate.

That all being said, when I think back to the season the defining play is the Jimmy fumble at the end of the third quarter versus Navy. Had he scored that touchdown, I honestly believe ND would have won the Navy game. And there's no other possible explanation for his stand straight up and get hit move than a worse than we thought toe. Beat Navy and the team doesn't go into self-doubt bipolar mode (they played either dejected like in the first half of the pitt game or desperate, like when Sergio Brown took that terrible penalty). Thus my theory is, despite all the very real problems with ND football, all others would have been overcome if Clausen's toe had been just a little bit better.

B: As for the world class lying Urban's done to keep his recruits, that's true. But it still would have been another card in CW's hand, and there's no doubt that this year would have been the most favorable recruiting environment of his term.

C: Finally, while there are a ton of uncertainties when using the star system to evaluate recruits, one certainty is that football is a physical game and athleticism, strength, size and speed are all very helpful to becoming a good football player. For positions in which physical traits are the least important relative to mental traits (QB) the star system should be less accurate as you never know how a QB will adjust to the next level. On the other hand, for a position like DT where football is less an intellectual exercise and more a physical war, the star system should actually be a fairly reliable way of estimating a player's potential for success on the field.

 

[BGIF]

...

C: Finally, while there are a ton of uncertainties when using the star system to evaluate recruits, one certainty is that football is a physical game and athleticism, strength, size and speed are all very helpful to becoming a good football player. For positions in which physical traits are the least important relative to mental traits (QB) the star system should be less accurate as you never know how a QB will adjust to the next level. On the other hand, for a position like DT where football is less an intellectual exercise and more a physical war, the star system should actually be a fairly reliable way of estimating a player's potential for success on the field.

The NFL has much more talented professionals grading college seniors every year for the draft. They have much greater resources available to them and have much greater risk riding on their choices. Jamie Newberg doesn't lose his job when his 5 Star QB plays like a 2 Star and he doesn't get a SuperBowl ring if his 3 Star RB runs for 2000 yards in a season. Despite the great impetus for successful evaluation the NFL Draft has a checkered record for success similar to the college entertainment level evaluation provided by the recruiting services.

 

[WabashFalcon]

What the hell did I miss last night?

 

[Merlin]

If you looked at the star system-teams like Texas and Alabama would have played for the title this year.

Thats my point!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

...I think back to the season the defining play is the Jimmy fumble at the end of the third quarter versus Navy...

Nice post. I think the defining play, if there is such a thing, was when Jimmy got hurt. I thought it was an uglier injury than most people thought. Of course I have no clue, but I was surprised he was able to play the rest of the season. I think I posted something to that effect in (maybe) the game day thread shortly after the injury.

And when you have to battle the officiating... I actually think the Irish got shafted by the officials in many of their losses. And I think it has been that way for a long time. Granted the players have to man up on every down, but too many ticky tack calls were made at crucial moments against ND. Seems to me anyway.

 

[johnnykillz]

I couldn't agree more Neutered. When the stars align and you become the focal point for a wormhole to open and: A) it either starts sucking up your bad ass players or B) it unleashes hell's fury, you can't do anything about it.

It's sometimes best to crack open a beer and just say, "Damn..."

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Yeah Caveman. But I cracked open a beer and tripped over my carpet. It sucked.

Packers and Cardinals 45-45 heading into overtime. Goodness.

Oops. Cardinals win as soon as I click "Save" for current post.

Ridiculous game. Fun stuff.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yeah Caveman. But I cracked open a beer and tripped over my carpet. It sucked.

Packers and Cardinals 45-45 heading into overtime. Goodness.

Oops. Cardinals win as soon as I click "Save" for current post.

Ridiculous game. Fun stuff.

Question: Should the game winning touchdown have been counted as a punt return?

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Me was communicating with a couple of different entities toward the end of the game. Me not a good source to ask. Friggen missed the end of the game. Waiting for replays.

Friggen A.

EDIT:

Just saw a recap: Thinking Curt Warner is also one of the "best in history."

 

[IrishinSyria]

Ahhh, you'll see what I mean when you see the replay, crazy play to end the game.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Saw the play in the recap. Did not see the series. Don't know what you mean about punt return.

Still multitasking on the comp and not out there winning playoff games. Just popped open a cold one.

Hoping Wabash can join me.

 

[fortwayne_nd]

Thinking Curt Warner is also one of the "best in history."

He's special...I thought the curtain might have dropped for him at NYG. Ends up in the desert and is one exceptional pass & catch between Big Ben and Santonio from getting the Cards SB rings. Got the Cardinals to the Super Bowl...incredible.

 

[irishtrain]

Officials and their calls will always be an issue, it must be overcome, its really that simple as we have no conference affiliation. Its the price we pay to control our own destiny-but it bites you in the @$# ala the 3/4 times this year and the Bush Push etc. I for one would have it no other way. The officials have to live with themselves and their motives good or bad.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Dude wins. (Curt Warner). I'm ready to play middle and knock out Favre (dude is starting to get on my nerves - want to knock out his teeth).

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

.

 

[johnnykillz]

Dude wins. (Curt Warner). I'm ready to play middle and knock out Favre (dude is starting to get on my nerves - want to knock out his teeth).

LOL!

Dude can play football and also probably wins at who has the prettiest barbie at slumber parties considering his DRAMA. He and Lady Gaga might have something in common. How's a man create so much drama?

With abnormally ovary produced estrogen. Thats how.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

LOL!

Dude can play football and also probably wins at who has the prettiest barbie at slumber parties considering his DRAMA. He and Lady Gaga might have something in common. How's a man create so much drama?

With abnormally ovary produced estrogen. Thats how.

Who is Lady Gaga??? lol

 

[johnnykillz]

Who is Lady Gaga??? lol

The singing man/bear/pig, some rumors surfaced a short time ago along the hermaphroditic lines...

*Not sure hermaphroditic is a word. Should be if not. I expect full credit when incorporated into other word forms relevant webster's

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

YouTube - Lady Gaga - Bad Romance