How we got here: redshirts

[zemaniak]

Very interesting read from NBC, which explains rather well the "talent" gap between the strength of our recruiting classes and the actual onfield results:

How we got here: Redshirts | Inside the Irish

 

[PANDFAN]

great read! ty

 

[jonesman]

All the more reason I believe that Kelly must fill the roster every year in recruiting. CW was too picky and because of this we only signed 18 or 19 kids a couple of his years. This left the roster still short of 85. Even if you can't get every 4 and 5 star kid you are chasing, there are lots of good 3 star kids that can develop if given the extra time via a red-shirt.

That is why I hope that Kelly fills the roster again this spring with 24-25 recruits. The cream will rise, so get all you can.

 

[rikkitikki08]

All the more reason I believe that Kelly must fill the roster every year in recruiting. CW was too picky and because of this we only signed 18 or 19 kids a couple of his years. This left the roster still short of 85. Even if you can't get every 4 and 5 star kid you are chasing, there are lots of good 3 star kids that can develop if given the extra time via a red-shirt.

That is why I hope that Kelly fills the roster again this spring with 24-25 recruits. The cream will rise, so get all you can.

Agreed, plenty of 2 or 3 star players have filled in for this team and done pretty well, we need solid depth at every position

 

[TDHeysus]

keep in mind, its easy for Captain Hindsight to pick apart Weis' roster/recruitment startegy now. Weis had a plan that was cut short, to go back and criticize that incomplete plan now doesnt make much sense at all. Its like firing a chef in the middle of cooking a meal, and then criticizing him because the green beans are cold.

that being said, the article talks about what has happened at ND for as long as i can remember(no redshirts/fifth year). is that weis' fault too?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Well, I've been saying that this was the #1 problem with ND for a while now, though this article is much more specific than I ever was. I see this not as a criticism of Weis (though playing Carufel for 3 minutes in his freshman year was bad) but as an explanation for why a good coach struggled. ND was slowly building back depth in the trenches, given a few more years Weis could have consistently brought big mean men onto the field. Hopefully Kelly continues to rectify this.

And I'll say this: the article's a little misleading when it talks about Weis "wasting" guys defacto redshirts. The 2005 and 2006 teams were full of veterans, but they were as thin as rock soup. Weis played guys on special teams not because he thought it would be fun to watch them do a few extra sprints during a game, but because he needed to. Why? Because Ty fielded some of the least complete recruiting classes ever. So while the "blame Ty" excuse is starting to expire, those 10 or 11 potential players that we do not have this year were wasted years ago when we desperately needed bodies on the field.

 

[irish1958]

keep in mind, its easy for Captain Hindsight to pick apart Weis' roster/recruitment startegy now. Weis had a plan that was cut short, to go back and criticize that incomplete plan now doesnt make much sense at all. Its like firing a chef in the middle of cooking a meal, and then criticizing him because the green beans are cold.

that being said, the article talks about what has happened at ND for as long as i can remember(no redshirts/fifth year). is that weis' fault too?

I have been too harsh on Weis; I was unaware that he had a ten or fifteen year plan, and we didn't give him enough time.

 

[kmoose]

I'm not an expert on the rule, but I'm pretty sure that you don't burn a whole year of eligibility, by playing a mere 3 minutes of game time. Unless that only applies to injury situations?

 

[jonesman]

Folks,
I know that this sounds really crazy, but even Kelly has had to pay a little for the HORRIBLE recruiting that a guy named Willingham did some 6-7 years ago. You ask how?? Well, because of that absolutely abysmal recruiting in 2004 and 2005, Weis was forced to play many many kids in their freshman year.

Think about how nice it would have been to have both Rashon McNeil and Sergio Brown this year as 5th years. But, they were both forced into action due to the lack of depth we had back in their freshman years.

How nice would it be next year to have Ian Williams and Louis Nix to share NT. Well, the fact Willingham did not bother to recruit any DL, Ian was playing as a freshman in 2007.

This is how bad recruiting years can linger, especially when you are not allowed to plug holes with JC recruits. ND definitely has an uphill battle compared to the Alabama, Oklahoma, Nebraska, USC and Oregon's of the college football world.

This is why is imperative for Kelly to FILL every open scholarship every off season. Do not save it for that NEXT year hoping that they all-world recruit will come aboard. There will always be more spots available than we think because of transfer, medical issues, player issues and other unforeseen issues.

DEPTH, it does a roster good!!!!

 

[Ben E.]

good read/very true!!!

 

[phork]

keep in mind, its easy for Captain Hindsight to pick apart Weis' roster/recruitment startegy now. Weis had a plan that was cut short, to go back and criticize that incomplete plan now doesnt make much sense at all. Its like firing a chef in the middle of cooking a meal, and then criticizing him because the green beans are cold.

that being said, the article talks about what has happened at ND for as long as i can remember(no redshirts/fifth year). is that weis' fault too?

Weis's plan cut short? In 5 years you should be rolling. 5 years is the standard by which all coaches are measured in building a program. Some do it in less, but in 5 years you should be able to compete with the top teams in D1A.

I'm not an expert on the rule, but I'm pretty sure that you don't burn a whole year of eligibility, by playing a mere 3 minutes of game time. Unless that only applies to injury situations?

There is all kinds of dumb little rules in regard to this. The main one being playing in more than 3 games in the first 8 or something.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Unless that only applies to injury situations?

bingo*

*And I have personally burned a year on 15 minutes of garbage time...

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

Wow that a great read great break down also

 

[irish1958]

There are two great disadvantages ND has, and they cannot be changed.
When one of the FB powers, especially in the SAC, with the notable exception of Vandy, have a need to fill, they get someone from Hug-A-Hunk junior college and plug him in for the season. By the time he flunks out, they will have their own player back or will have a recruit fill the need.
The NCAA should plug this hole; make the JC moron sit out a year and have academic eligibility before playing.

Also some of the major programs have an extensive farm club system of JCs that allows them to circumvent the 85 player limit on recruits and the academic eligibility rules.

We have accepted the red shirt year; but we require the athlete to progress to a degree in four years. I don't see how it would be a problem to make that five years, which is what the rest of the world does.

 

[CanadianIrish]

I agree that this is an issue, for one simple reason - size is a critical factor for the trench warriors. Skill is more important for receivers, running backs, DBs and QBs. For the guys in the trenches, skill doesn't matter if you just aren't big enough. I don't think skill positions need redshirts, but I am always fine with seeing trench guys red shirted.

Kelly appears to have taken steps to immediately address this problem. Louis Nix is red shirting, and some of the following appear to be red shirting too (I suspect TT will know exactly who is): Nichols, Lombard, Heggie, Utopo. Those are all guys in the trenches, so this is being addressed.

The issue is that in order to red shirt you need to have deep recruiting classes at the position. Charlie never recruited well in those spots. Kelly is doing a better job, but our OL line class is still really thin after losing Prestwood.

 

[tripsdad]

I agree that this is an issue, for one simple reason - size is a critical factor for the trench warriors. Skill is more important for receivers, running backs, DBs and QBs. For the guys in the trenches, skill doesn't matter if you just aren't big enough.

Just wondering, then, how the service academies figure into the size equation. Didn't our O-line outweigh Navy's D-line by about the same tonnage as a mid-sized destroyer?

 

[irish1958]

Size in the triple option and its variations is not that important on the offensive side.
On the defensive side it is.
Even with our injuries our offensive output was a poor and the reason we lost. You cannot beat a decent triple option team if you go three and out all the time.

 

[Legacy]

Nice article, but I am in the half the truth camp.

In the '03 class Willingham signed, we only had three Power position players - Abiamiri, Harris and Sullivan. Total - 3

In the '04 class, Ty got us Justin Brown, Incarnato (transfer) and Kadous (transfer). Total - 1

In the '05 class, Ty left without getting one power player committed. Charlie landed Duncan, Kurtz, Turkovich, and Hand (kicked off team later). Total - 3
Remember Charlie's first Blue-Gold game when he could not field two full OLs?

In the '06 class, Charlie landed 8 power position players, losing only Carufel (transfer) and Webb (injury). Total - 6

Four years later, we now have depth to redshirt.

 

[CanadianIrish]

Just wondering, then, how the service academies figure into the size equation. Didn't our O-line outweigh Navy's D-line by about the same tonnage as a mid-sized destroyer?

As was pointed out below, the reason the service academies play the triple option is that it doesn't require size the same way a typical offense does. There is a reason they play that way, and it's that they all have certain physical requirements for attendance that people like Ian Williams and Chris Stewart can't come close to meeting.

This just isn't an issue with the skill positions though. Would A.J. Green be any better if he had sat a year? Did Andrew Luck's red shirt year really matter when he's almost certainly turning pro after this year?

 

[IrishinSyria]

As was pointed out below, the reason the service academies play the triple option is that it doesn't require size the same way a typical offense does. There is a reason they play that way, and it's that they all have certain physical requirements for attendance that people like Ian Williams and Chris Stewart can't come close to meeting.

This just isn't an issue with the skill positions though. Would A.J. Green be any better if he had sat a year? Did Andrew Luck's red shirt year really matter when he's almost certainly turning pro after this year?

Sometimes it is. Would Jimmy Claussen have benefited from a year to learn the offense? How about Cierre Wood, he could use some time in the weight room, yes?

However, it's certainly more likely you find a skill position player to come in and play right away then a big.

 

[aaronb]

All the more reason I believe that Kelly must fill the roster every year in recruiting. CW was too picky and because of this we only signed 18 or 19 kids a couple of his years. This left the roster still short of 85. Even if you can't get every 4 and 5 star kid you are chasing, there are lots of good 3 star kids that can develop if given the extra time via a red-shirt.

That is why I hope that Kelly fills the roster again this spring with 24-25 recruits. The cream will rise, so get all you can.

Not sure I agree with this full class concept. It's a slippery slope that may very well have some unintended negative consequences. 25 per year on a 5 year cycle is 125 kids. We only have 85 Schollies to use. So we would be looking at blowing 8-12 kids out of the program every single season.

The thing that sets ND apart from other schools is the tradition and commitment to an actual education. If we start running these kids out of here its going to.

1. Have a huge negative impact on our graduation %'s
2. Make recruiting so much harder. Since we can't use the promise of an education in good faith.

What we have then is basically a Purdue level program with much harder admissions.

 

[CanadianIrish]

Sometimes it is. Would Jimmy Claussen have benefited from a year to learn the offense? How about Cierre Wood, he could use some time in the weight room, yes?

However, it's certainly more likely you find a skill position player to come in and play right away then a big.

The issue with a skill player who would benefit from a red shirt is that they aren't going to stick around for 5 years anyways. Sure, Jimmy probably would have done well to learn the offense. He only stayed at ND for 3 years, you think he would have stayed for 5 if he red shirted? I'm sure Andrew Luck benefited from his red shirt year too, do you think Stanford will care next year when he's playing for Buffalo?

Skill players rarely red shirt, and those who do often leave early anyways, and the remainder who don't leave early aren't going to be your top contributors offensively in any event. Who was the last 5th year senior at a skill position who led his team? There is maybe a handful a year, why waste a year not having him get game experience if the odds of him truly being a key contributor in his 5th year are low?

 

[aaronb]

The issue with a skill player who would benefit from a red shirt is that they aren't going to stick around for 5 years anyways. Sure, Jimmy probably would have done well to learn the offense. He only stayed at ND for 3 years, you think he would have stayed for 5 if he red shirted? I'm sure Andrew Luck benefited from his red shirt year too, do you think Stanford will care next year when he's playing for Buffalo?

Skill players rarely red shirt, and those who do often leave early anyways, and the remainder who don't leave early aren't going to be your top contributors offensively in any event. Who was the last 5th year senior at a skill position who led his team? There is maybe a handful a year, why waste a year not having him get game experience if the odds of him truly being a key contributor in his 5th year are low?

Only a select few elite players ever leave school early for the NFL. Less than 100 NATION WIDE around CFB. You have to run your program as to what is best for your program. You can't worry about the off chance that player X turns into a 1st round pick in 4 years?

 

[CanadianIrish]

Only a select few elite players ever leave school early for the NFL. Less than 100 NATION WIDE around CFB. You have to run your program as to what is best for your program. You can't worry about the off chance that player X turns into a 1st round pick in 4 years?

How many fifth year senior starting running backs, wide receivers and quarterbacks are there in FBS football?

 

[aaronb]

How many fifth year senior starting running backs, wide receivers and quarterbacks are there in FBS football?

Tons of them. Probably at least 20-30% around Division 1 programs nationwide.

 

[choo choo]

Nice article, but I am in the half the truth camp.

In the '03 class Willingham signed, we only had three Power position players - Abiamiri, Harris and Sullivan. Total - 3

In the '04 class, Ty got us Justin Brown, Incarnato (transfer) and Kadous (transfer). Total - 1

In the '05 class, Ty left without getting one power player committed. Charlie landed Duncan, Kurtz, Turkovich, and Hand (kicked off team later). Total - 3
Remember Charlie's first Blue-Gold game when he could not field two full OLs?

In the '06 class, Charlie landed 8 power position players, losing only Carufel (transfer) and Webb (injury). Total - 6

Four years later, we now have depth to redshirt.

thank you...good job!

 

[kmoose]

As was pointed out below, the reason the service academies play the triple option is that it doesn't require size the same way a typical offense does. There is a reason they play that way, and it's that they all have certain physical requirements for attendance that people like Ian Williams and Chris Stewart can't come close to meeting.

This just isn't an issue with the skill positions though. Would A.J. Green be any better if he had sat a year? Did Andrew Luck's red shirt year really matter when he's almost certainly turning pro after this year?

The question wasn't "How does Navy's offense get away with it?" The question was... if size is such a huge advantage, then why didn't ND's offense just push the Navy defense all over the field?

 

[CanadianIrish]

The question wasn't "How does Navy's offense get away with it?" The question was... if size is such a huge advantage, then why didn't ND's offense just push the Navy defense all over the field?

Because we don't play smash-mouth football, we're a pass first team and we did have decent rushing numbers against them.

 

[CanadianIrish]

Tons of them. Probably at least 20-30% around Division 1 programs nationwide.

Comments like that are infuriating. Change your signature to "60% of the time I make up stats to support my ridiculous arguments".

Lets look at the top five and see what reality says for their QB, RB and WRs (per Rivals pre-season previews):

Oregon: 0
Auburn: 0
TCU: 0
BSU: 0
LSU: 0

Please don't just make nonsense up to support your opinion.

 

[aaronb]

Comments like that are infuriating. Change your signature to "60% of the time I make up stats to support my ridiculous arguments".

Lets look at the top five and see what reality says for their QB, RB and WRs (per Rivals pre-season previews):

Oregon: 0
Auburn: 0
TCU: 0
BSU: 0
LSU: 0

Please don't just make nonsense up to support your opinion.

Dude, you are the one trying to cherry pick teams to justify your nonsense.
I posted just the other day that 15 of 32 Starting QBs were 5 year college players. 26 of 32 were 4 year players. 5th year guys DO play important roles on teams all over the country.