For the Weis must go crowd....

WabashFalcon

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ChamPEN... listen... and answer this question. Did Charlie Weis put his players in a position to win the football game?

Yes.

Did the players execute? No. They did not.
 

I Dont Miss Charlie

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ChamPEN... listen... and answer this question. Did Charlie Weis put his players in a position to win the football game?
Being down by 9 with less than 2 minutes isn't putting his players in position to win the game.

Not sure you were watching the same game I was watching but the fact we had over 500 yards of total offense yet scored only 21 points is a serious problem. Im done beating on the topic about doing this against a Navy defense who on paper should've been a walkthrough for our offense.

Did the players execute? No. They did not.

So nothing falls on the shoulders of the coaches when the players dont execute? I hope you're joking because the execution of plays is handled in practice, under the watch of the coaches.
 

NDMontana

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ChamPEN... listen... and answer this question. Did Charlie Weis put his players in a position to win the football game?

Yes.

Did the players execute? No. They did not.

Did Charlie Weis call 23 plays inside the red zone that didn't work? Yes, he did.
 

NDMontana

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Actually that's not weird but rather shows that given decent talent the man can accomplish something.

Except the reason that is most often being floated out for retaining him is his recruiting. However, his recruits are juniors and seniors--exactly where Willingham's undesirables were when CW got to ND. And he's lost three games this season. I won't even talk about last year or the previous year.
 

WabashFalcon

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Being down by 9 with less than 2 minutes isn't putting his players in position to win the game.

Not sure you were watching the same game I was watching but the fact we had over 500 yards of total offense yet scored only 21 points is a serious problem. Im done beating on the topic about doing this against a Navy defense who on paper should've been a walkthrough for our offense.



So nothing falls on the shoulders of the coaches when the players dont execute? I hope you're joking because the execution of plays is handled in practice, under the watch of the coaches.

Charlie Weis did not miss two field goals. Charlie Weis did not throw a pick in the end zone. Charlie Weis did not fumble the football at the two. He called plays that got his players to the red zone. They didn't punch it in.
 

TDHeysus

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How long can you continue to blame the players for our failure?

...as long as I continue to see it as the problem.

If the PLAYERS would have handled business on these plays, its a completely different game.

lets assume:
clausen scores (+7)
floyd turns around and catches the ball (+7)
Tausch goes 50% (+3)
those 3 plays alone would have added 17points

Did CW pass, catch, block, or FUMBLE on any of those plays??


How about you lend some focus on the guy recruiting them to the program, hiring their position coaches, overseeing their development as players, and calling the plays on offense.

I have addressed this very subject numerous times, in numerous threads, I cant bring myself to repeat it again :banghead2
 

WabashFalcon

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...as long as I continue to see it as the problem.

If the PLAYERS would have handled business on these plays, its a completely different game.

lets assume:
clausen scores (+7)
floyd turns around and catches the ball (+7)
Tausch goes 50% (+3)
those 3 plays alone would have added 17points

Did CW pass, catch, block, or FUMBLE on any of those plays??


I have addressed this very subject numerous times, in numerous threads, I cant bring myself to repeat it again :banghead2

Hey man... I've tried again and again saying the same things. They are just falling on deaf ears.
 

kmoose

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I talk about Weis' coaching record, where the defense ranks, I posted Willingham vs. Weis record. All quantifiable, all tangible measures.

And the conclusions from these measures are all incredibly subjective, and worth about as much as the paper they are written on. It's the LOGIC that carries weight, not the statisitics.
 
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WabashFalcon

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A different example...

If a coach calls a Cover Two Man under coverage and the CB falls down, leading to a 80 yard TD, it's the coaches fault for the touchdown?

If a kicker misses a 30 yard FG, is it the coaches fault for sending out the PAT team?

If a running back fumbles the football, is it the coaches fault for running the ball?
 

I Dont Miss Charlie

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Charlie Weis did not miss two field goals. Charlie Weis did not throw a pick in the end zone. Charlie Weis did not fumble the football at the two. He called plays that got his players to the red zone. They didn't punch it in.

OK. Fair enough.

Lets avoid looking at the guy in charge and focus once again on the players. And my complaints about Charlie run further than the Navy game which you continue to reference as being the fault of the mistakes made by the players.
 

phork

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Here are my reasons for keep Charile Weis.

1. The recruit of Pan-American, highly rated prospects.

Can't argue that.

2. The development of the aforementioned prospects: Claussen, Floyd, Tate, AA, Ethan Johnson, Kapron Lewis-Moore, Kyle McCarthy, Manti T'eo, Trevor Robinson, Dan Wenger, Eric Olsen, (this next one hurts to say) Duval Kamara, and Ian Williams.

But it was the players fault they lost the game.

3. His job righting the ship after the terrible Willingham Era. He finally has all of his players and if after next season he doesn't get it done, then I say that it is time for a change.

The ship is still listing to the right.

4. His pro approach. Bringing in kids that are NFL Draft ready by their Senior years has done nothing but improve the stock of ND being an NFL factory again.

I'm so glad that we have become a training den for the NFL. Who gives a crap about winning games on the collegiate levels. As long as we have guys in the NFL!

5. We have the first legit pair of Heisman candidates for ages. As much as I loved BQ, he was a paper tiger to me. Lot of show... little flash. Tate and Jimmah have the goods and are showing them week in and week out.

I would say triplets.

6. Charlie has said that he is the guy for the O. Tenuta and Corwin were given co-head positions so they could compartimilize the D so Charlie could focus on the O. Was it a bad hire? Not necessarly. Tenuta needs faster, more agressive linebackers and two gap DTs in order for his blitzing package to work. We have T'eo... and are on our way to developing the rest of the personell.

Charlie Weis is the HEAD football coach at the university of ND.

7. Charlie has done so much for the campus. He is beloved by the student body and by the administrators. He has brought in a ton of money for Our Lady while spreading knowledge of the disease that has effected his daughter to the rest of the country.

Something to be said for the lovable loser.

8. He is affable in both win and defeat. He said that he sticks to his guns. That's the coach I want. I don't want someone that is going to come in week in and week out and attempt to change O/D philosophy.

Someone else said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again.

9. We're almost back to a national power. But cutting the cord now, it's back to the black abyss of the Davie and Willingham eras. If we take a flyer on Gruden (who refuses to develop talent) or Kelly (big fish in a terrible conference), it will be another five year quagmire until the boo-birds begin calling for their heads.

You really believe that ND is that close to being a National Power? Maybe if we exclude Michigan, USC and Navy off the schedule.

10. This job isn't easy. With the prospect of "Win 10 games or you're gone" year after year, CW has about got the job done.

There is always next year, right?

11. We won a Bowl Game. Don't give a fuck if it was the Hawaii Bowl. It was done.

Thats like beating an amputee at the 100m, congrats.

12. We beat BC.

Wow, setting our sights high now aren't we?

13. Next year, we will be loaded. If CW stays, Jimmy and Golden stay. T'eo will stay. (You love this kid? You get rid of Charlie, T'eo's gone.) CMart comes in and starts. We are bigger and faster.

Loaded and still won't sniff the BCS. Imagine that.

14. The (to borrow something from Bambi) young pups will finally become Big Dogs. We are trotting out a D week in and out full of underclassmen that just aren't ready to go yet. Go look at an SEC D and tell me how many underclassmen are starting on Alabama's D? On Florida's? Age and experience baby, age and experience.

If only we had some 8th year seniors.

15. He's an ND grad. He understands the tradition. He understands the pressure. Hell, I'd know I'd crack if boosters wanted to rip my balls off weekly, U$C fans send me shit mocking my daughter, and alums are posting signs up asking for my job.

I wasn't aware that being an ND Grad was a job requirement. While I enjoyed his return to singing the Alma Mater, thats something to be filed under "Thats nice."

16. He's got this team knowning they can win, week in and out. They give a shit... finally. You can see the pain and emotion on T'eo, Golden, and Jimmy's face after the wins and after the losses. They give a damn. There is passion and emotion.

Knowing and doing. Two separate things. Having them prepared, a whole other ball of wax.

17. He's got the ND football alum's comming back to the program, getting them involved with his kids.

Well thats great. Hopefully they can suit up and help them out.

18. He's got the NFL connections that can better this team. After Crist blew his knee out, Charlie had Tom Brady call the kid to tell him what he needs to do to get back on the field.

How touching. I am sure Crist was lost up to that point.

19. Who could possibly be better? Gruden... no. Cower? Waiting on an NFL job. Kelly... no. See above. Meyer? Never leaving Florida. Give me a name.

Million dollar question, in more ways than one I guess.

Did CW get his bell rung and fumble the ball inside the 1 yard line?
Did CW have the ball bounce off his back inside the 5 yard line?
Did CW miss 2 field goals?
Did CW fumble the ball on the first drive of the game?

I suppose that CW should have been there to soften Rudy's fall too, right?? after all, he did call the play, so I guess he is responsible for him getting hurt.

yea...its all CW's fault

He did pass up a FG. Its not all his fault, but certainly having his team prepared is partly his fault. Stop giving this guy a free ticket.

Charlie Weis did not miss two field goals. Charlie Weis did not throw a pick in the end zone. Charlie Weis did not fumble the football at the two. He called plays that got his players to the red zone. They didn't punch it in.

See above.
 

I Dont Miss Charlie

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^^That was great.

Its always next year at Notre Dame. I wish people still cared about Notre Dame football like some of us do, and we still had the excitement we once did 4 years ago.

I dont know how any true Notre Dame fan could be happy about the current state of the program, 6-3 with a loss to Navy in a year where our schedule was unusually light in order to contend for a BCS Bowl.

If we go 10-3 it still wont matter, the Bronze Walnut we get from the Emerald Bowl holds no weight to this program's history.
 

Master Guns

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Another couple of reasons to keep Weis.

I think Charlie is finally realizing the kind of players it take to win in college. Look at Riddick compared to Hughes and Aldridge. Hughes and Aldridge were highly touted RBs while Riddick was a 3 star but had good moves. Charlie wouldn't have even looked at Riddick his 1st 2 or 3 years.

Charlie is also finally realizing how to become a Head Coach, it has taken him longer than I would have liked. He has said a few things to the defense which helped for the Purdue game(way fewer blitzes since then).

Get rid of Weis, we not only lose Jimmy, Golden, AA, and T'eo, but also a lot of recruits. CMart is on the fence as it is, why would he stay with a program in turmoil. All this Weis needs to be fire stuff is losing us recruits as we speak.

KEEP WEIS!!!
GO IRISH!!!
NC IN 2010!!!

Agree, Lose CW and the kids go with him. All the firing talk just keeps recruits away. Oh and the John Gruden talk? Give me a friggin break. If they tank during Jimmy's senior year then its time to move on.
 

SteelerNation

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Life is to short to keep Weis on. The guy has had 5 years. If some people are okay with his mediocrity...fine. But not me. He is the 2nd highest paid football coach in college. You cant keep a guy around making his kind of money and never able to win a meaningful game.
 

jason_h537

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Life is to short to keep Weis on. The guy has had 5 years. If some people are okay with his mediocrity...fine. But not me. He is the 2nd highest paid football coach in college. You cant keep a guy around making his kind of money and never able to win a meaningful game.

The whole point of the thread was to not make quick judgemnet calls like Fire Weis without having a plan. The AD's job is to not be emotional but rational. If you plan to fire Weis after the loss then you will ruin everything that Weis has built to put this team in a position to win. The next coach will be a desperation hire and will likely end up being fired in another 5 years with the team being worse off.

1) We need to be in contact with potential hires NOW. Who fits the schools criteria (that counts out Meyer and Saban), and who has a winning record that can maximize the talent on the roster

2) let the season play out. The year is not over, there are still s games to go and this team iscapable of beating all 3 of them. If Weis wins he keeps his job and continues the upward recruiting trend

Weis is on the fence right now. It is win or go home time. Another loss and he should be let go, but not without a plan first.
 

SteelerNation

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I keep hearing people say "what Weis has built"...well, what exactly has he built? What have we done of any signifigance? We have some grat players, but what good is that if we cant win a meaningful game? Whats more important? Jimmy throwing for 3000 yards or Notre Dame winning 11 games? I'll take less talented players if it means they work better as a unit and get the job done.
 

jason_h537

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I keep hearing people say "what Weis has built"...well, what exactly has he built? What have we done of any signifigance? We have some grat players, but what good is that if we cant win a meaningful game? Whats more important? Jimmy throwing for 3000 yards or Notre Dame winning 11 games? I'll take less talented players if it means they work better as a unit and get the job done.

again, what is the alternative?

Weis took a team with no talent and made them competitive and loaded the roster with talent. That is what he has done and has put Notre Dame in a position where winning should be expected. Now those wins have not com as expected which is why fans are angry, but letting him go before the season has played out, and before having a coach in place to take over. Is (i will use the terms used by Weis haters, toward people who think he should stay) ignorant, and stupid.
 

SteelerNation

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again, what is the alternative?

Weis took a team with no talent and made them competitive and loaded the roster with talent. That is what he has done and has put Notre Dame in a position where winning should be expected. Now those wins have not com as expected which is why fans are angry, but letting him go before the season has played out, and before having a coach in place to take over. Is (i will use the terms used by Weis haters, toward people who think he should stay) ignorant, and stupid.

So staying complacent and continually leaving a guy in charge who has shown time and time again to not get the job done is not stupid? And there are many alternatives. Are people saying that coaching changes dont go well. Just look at Miami, Tennessee, Alabama, Florida....just to name a few. What if those schools thought the same way some people on here do. they would still be stuck in mediocrity.
 

WabashFalcon

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again, what is the alternative?

Weis took a team with no talent and made them competitive and loaded the roster with talent. That is what he has done and has put Notre Dame in a position where winning should be expected. Now those wins have not com as expected which is why fans are angry, but letting him go before the season has played out, and before having a coach in place to take over. Is (i will use the terms used by Weis haters, toward people who think he should stay) ignorant, and stupid.

x2. Great post Jason.
 

jason_h537

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So staying complacent and continually leaving a guy in charge who has shown time and time again to not get the job done is not stupid? And there are many alternatives. Are people saying that coaching changes dont go well. Just look at Miami, Tennessee, Alabama, Florida....just to name a few. What if those schools thought the same way some people on here do. they would still be stuck in mediocrity.

Randy Shannon was already tabbed to take over Miami when Coker was let go. Before this season, there were, and probably are still, alot of fans who wanted them fired. Nick Saban was in negotiation with Alabama during the season when Shula was fired. Kiffin was the target from the start when Fullmer was fired and Tennesse is still a mediocre team (it hasnt been a year yet).

What do they have in common? A plan of succession. I am not saying that Weis should be brought back. I am saying let the year finish before deciding on his fate but start making a plan now, so if he does get fired we are not in desperation mode
 

PADOMERNUT

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I think the first 2 years bought Weis the next 2 years. But now he is on his own again. If the season ended today, what could he say to Swarbrick that would save his job? What kind of equity has he built up?

Fortunately for Charlie, the season doesnt end today. If he wins out, he can say look, we went from 3-9 to 9-3 in 2 years, we beat a top 12 team on the road and we beat a good Stanford team on the road. We are playing in a New Years Day bowl game.

That I think would be enough to bring him back. This post is not saying I agree with that or not. Just trying to look at it objectively.
 

sonomairishfan

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Another couple of reasons to keep Weis.

I think Charlie is finally realizing the kind of players it take to win in college. Look at Riddick compared to Hughes and Aldridge. Hughes and Aldridge were highly touted RBs while Riddick was a 3 star but had good moves. Charlie wouldn't have even looked at Riddick his 1st 2 or 3 years.

Charlie is also finally realizing how to become a Head Coach, it has taken him longer than I would have liked. He has said a few things to the defense which helped for the Purdue game(way fewer blitzes since then).

Get rid of Weis, we not only lose Jimmy, Golden, AA, and T'eo, but also a lot of recruits. CMart is on the fence as it is, why would he stay with a program in turmoil. All this Weis needs to be fire stuff is losing us recruits as we speak.

KEEP WEIS!!!
GO IRISH!!!
NC IN 2010!!!

if he is so keen on the players that it takes to win, then why did Riddick not touch the ball until 30 seconds left in the second half? in the first half he was dominating and had over 7 yds per carry. he should have touched the ball many more times. you can't throw the ball all over the field against option teams as that plays into their advantage by letting them control the clock.

if ND gets an established head coach in next year, players will not leave. (JC and GT may leave for the draft no matter who is coaching) where will AA go? you are saying that he'll transfer someplace else for 1 season? no way. Manti will stay as he loves ND. an established coach like the guy from Cincy would improve our team, not hurt the team.

charlie has done a great job at stocking the shelves with talent, he just hasn't done a good job of running the entire program. he should be thanked for what he has done. however, losing on a regular basis to inferior teams is unacceptable.
 

emwilki2

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I say you keep CW and continue to better your team via strong recruiting classes. At the end of the day it is the players that have to show up and play. CW did not miss FG's that would have won the game. CW's did not blow his assignement.

ND is still an academic prowess that the BEST student athletes are attracted to. ND will get better talent. It will take time!
 

irishfan

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you can't throw the ball all over the field against option teams as that plays into their advantage by letting them control the clock.

Kinda hard not to throw the ball over the place when you're down by 2 scores nearly the whole game against a triple-option team.
 
H

HereComeTheIrish

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Kinda hard not to throw the ball over the place when you're down by 2 scores nearly the whole game against a triple-option team.

...But let's not let facts get in the way here. ;)
 
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