Brady For Heisman - Still!

grantland

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Though the cause is lost, I will not give up!



Quinn's Supporting Cast Should Not Cost Him the Heisman
College Football
BY ALLEN BARRA
December 6, 2006
URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/44698

Awards in sports are getting dumber and dumber. The more statistics, and hence, the more opportunity for intelligent analysis, the denser some voters become. And the Heisman Trophy has, over the last 20-odd years, become the bastion of the densest.

Despite the fact that nearly every leading player in the country gets to play in a bowl game, results from bowl games aren't taken into consideration. Why not? In many cases, the bowl game represents the toughest level of opposition a Heisman candidate faces all season. The Downtown Athletic Club also refuses to consider giving two Heismans — adding a second award for the best defensive player in the country — or at least joining with organizations that already honor defensive players and announcing the awards at the same ceremony. Up until 1963, a player's defensive ability was taken into account in the Heisman voting; since then, the Heisman has been given to just one defensive player (Michigan defensive back Charles Woodson in 1997) while still maintaining the fiction that the award goes to "The Outstanding College Football Player in the Nation."

For that matter, it's time that college football acknowledged that the age of specialization is here to stay and give equally prestigious awards to players at every position. There are awards for players at every position, but the Heisman is page one news while the winner of the Dick Butkus Award for outstanding college linebacker usually merits, at best, a couple of paragraphs in the middle of the sports section.

Until about 21 years ago, it was understood by seasoned observers that the quarterback for the no. 1 team in the country was seldom a legitimate contender for the best player in the nation, if only because if a team was good enough to be ranked no. 1, it was difficult to accurately assess the quarterback's contribution. Before Florida State's Charlie Ward in 1993, Notre Dame's Angelo Bertelli in 1943 and Johnny Lujack in 1947 were the only quarterbacks for no. 1 teams to win the Heisman. Virtually all the other Heisman winners at quarterback, notably Navy's Roger Staubach (1963), Florida's Steve Spurrier (1966), and Stanford's Jim Plunkett (1970), won their Heisman because of, not in spite of, playing on teams that weren't national championship contenders. Their statistics were thought to be accurate reflections of their own abilities rather than their teammates'.

Thirty-five or 40 years ago, Brady Quinn of Notre Dame (no. 11) would be a clear favorite for the Heisman Trophy. Instead, no. 1 Ohio State's Troy Smith, a fine player but perhaps no better than a dozen others at his position, will probably win it in a landslide. Let's put aside some obvious points: Of course, there isn't a real way of assessing the best player in the nation, and, since in today's game only running backs and quarterbacks get serious consideration, there is no way to pinpoint exactly where statistics stop reflecting individual talent and start reflecting team strength. That doesn't mean, though, that common sense analysis of the available data should be thrown out the window.

Let's start with the raw numbers of the two leading candidates, Smith and Quinn:

Clearly, Quinn has the advantage in total passing yards and touchdowns, though this is unfair to Smith — his team didn't need to pass as often as Quinn's in order to win. A comparison of their quality stats — yards per throw, interception rate, touchdowns to interceptions — shows no clear difference between them, Smith posting the higher yards a throw while Quinn has a lower interception percentage and better touchdown-to-interception rate. Jump ball.

The relevant question, then, should be which passer was most helped by schedule and his supporting talent. Regarding the first point, there's a misconception in the press that Ohio State played a tougher schedule than Notre Dame. They did not. OSU's opponents, not counting their games against the Buckeyes, were 73–59, while Notre Dame's were 75–48. It's true that the Irish played a couple of walkovers in North Carolina and Army, but their top six opponents, based on Sagarin's neutral field power ratings in USA Today, were USC (no. 2), Michigan (3), UCLA (20), Penn State (23), Georgia Tech (35), and Navy (43), while Ohio State's were Michigan (3), Texas (19), Penn State (23), Minnesota (37), Cincinnati (40) and Iowa (46). So the top half of Notre Dame's schedule (a combined 52–16) was tougher than Ohio State's toughest six (47–19).

Let's see how Quinn and Smith fared against their toughest six opponents:

Against slightly tougher opposition, Quinn performed at the same level of effectiveness as Troy Smith. How much, then, of Smith's success was due to his own skill and how much to the talent of his teammates? There's no way of making a precise judgment, but what is obvious is that Smith got far more help Ohio State's running game than Quinn did from Notre Dame's. The Buckeyes averaged 180 yards a game and 4.7 yards a rush, while Notre Dame's running attack was a little less than mediocre, averaging 124 yards a game for a 3.8 average.

What about pass blocking? Here Smith had a substantial boost over Quinn: His offensive line allowed him to be sacked just 13 times, while Quinn's blockers let him go down 30 times.

How about their respective defenses? How were the two quarterbacks helped out in terms of field position and game situations? Here, Smith had the biggest advantage of all: OSU's defense gave up just 273 yards a game and allowed 10.4 points a game, second best in the nation, while ND's rather un-tenacious D gave up 320.5 yards a game with an average of 22.4 points. In only one game all season was Smith really under pressure, against Michigan, and he acquitted himself brilliantly. But the fact is that all season long, Troy Smith never had to play catch up and could pretty much pick and choose the spots he wanted to throw in — and when he wasn't throwing he had a first rate rushing attack to reply on. Brady Quinn had none of these advantages and was pressed in virtually every game not only to run the offense but to be the offense. The primary knock on Quinn is that his team lost to Michigan and USC by a combined total of 46 points, but Quinn doesn't play defense and has nothing to do with how many points the other team scores. He had 508 yards passing and six touchdowns in those two losses.

The uncritical acceptance by so many writers and commentators of Troy Smith's Heisman worthiness reflects an attitude that has become popular in college football over the last couple of decades, namely that "the best player on the best team" — or at least the player on the best team with the gaudiest stats — is automatically the best player in the nation. This has resulted in some relatively undistinguished quarterbacks winning the Heisman, most notably Charlie Ward in '93, Florida's Danny Wuerffel in 1996, Florida State's Chris Wenke in 2000, and Oklahoma's Jason White in 2003. All of them played for teams that were ranked at or near the top at the time they won the award.

A careful look at the record convinces me that Troy Smith is destined to join their number. But whatever happens to Smith in the NFL, Brady Quinn put up numbers this year that were at least the equal of Troy Smith's, and he did it against tougher opposition and with far less help from his teammates. By any objective yardstick, he deserves the nod over Troy Smith as the outstanding college football player of the 2006 season.

Mr. Barra is the author, most recently, of "The Last Coach: A Life of Paul ‘Bear' Bryant."

(Russell Levine will give his take on who should win this year's Heisman Trophy in Friday's New York Sun)
 

NDOM

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Damn dude. How much money did you get after posting this thread?? he he he.
 
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jerseyborn1971

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Someone else posted the link to this article. It's amazing that after reading it, haters can still claim Troy is hands down the Heisman winner. I will continue to say Darren McFadden. Crazy skills and just as important to his team as BQ.
 

grantland

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Someone else posted the link to this article. It's amazing that after reading it, haters can still claim Troy is hands down the Heisman winner. I will continue to say Darren McFadden. Crazy skills and just as important to his team as BQ.

Oops - missed the link.

That would be an interesting rematch. Southern Cal v. Arkansas w/McFadden.
 
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NDAlumSon

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That was an excellent piece. I almost wish I cared about the Heisman as much as he does.
Like so many things, its original intent, its essence, is gone.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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WOW...what an interesting piece? Only 2 QB's on #1 teams before Charlie Ward?

Wow, I honestly had no idea. This is quite an eye-opener.
 
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IrishCPA

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Great article, to bad the voters don't think along those lines.
 

grantland

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So did I. Thanks for posting the article.

The author makes a solid argument although the ballots have already been mailed in.

No problem. No doubt Troy wins the Heisman, but its fun to keep arguing.

Funny, the author sites two examples of players from ND who won the Heisman for # 1 teams, however, leaves out the ND Heisman winner who would most clearly make his point, Horning.
 

beaudoj

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Really good article. I also agree that the media should give a little more attention to some of the other awards like the Butkus award. Instead of having a tv program for the Heisman that is drawn out and full of fluff, why not have a show that includes the other big awards...Butkus, Biletnikoff, etc...
 
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buckeyebacker

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Really good article. I also agree that the media should give a little more attention to some of the other awards like the Butkus award. Instead of having a tv program for the Heisman that is drawn out and full of fluff, why not have a show that includes the other big awards...Butkus, Biletnikoff, etc...

I believe there is one, its tonite on, dare i say it, ESPN 7 pm
 

grantland

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no... it still wouldn't. Arkansas remains overrated.

Don't make me argue for the SEC. I am a constant bitcher on this site about how the SEC people down here get on my friggin' nerves when they babble, "we play hard schedule, we're the toughest conference, and on and on..." I have to hear all that shit constantly.

However, you don't think Arkansas is a drastically different team now than when they played Southern Cal? McFadden plus Johnson now at WR instead of QB (though they still have QB issues - should have stayed with Mustain). Defense much improved.

I am not saying Arkansas would beat them but I do think it would be alot closer than 50-14.
 
F

FleaFlicker

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No problem. No doubt Troy wins the Heisman, but its fun to keep arguing.

Funny, the author sites two examples of players from ND who won the Heisman for # 1 teams, however, leaves out the ND Heisman winner who would most clearly make his point, Horning.

I assume the reason he left out Horning is because then people would say something along the lines of, "The Horning probably just won it because everybody loves ND."

Seeing at ND had the worst record of any team to have a Heisman winner, that year... If my memory serves me well.
 
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buckeyebacker

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I assume the reason he left out Horning is because then people would say something along the lines of, "The Horning probably just won it because everybody loves ND."

Seeing at ND had the worst record of any team to have a Heisman winner, that year... If my memory serves me well.

Jim Brown got robbed that year...

That was the only time a Heisman was awarded to someone on a team with a losing record
 

njuneardave

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Don't make me argue for the SEC. I am a constant bitcher on this site about how the SEC people down here get on my friggin' nerves when they babble, "we play hard schedule, we're the toughest conference, and on and on..." I have to hear all that shit constantly.

However, you don't think Arkansas is a drastically different team now than when they played Southern Cal? McFadden plus Johnson now at WR instead of QB (though they still have QB issues - should have stayed with Mustain). Defense much improved.

I am not saying Arkansas would beat them but I do think it would be alot closer than 50-14.


nah. Southern Cal would key in on the run -- they have the DB talent to take Arkansas's receivers 1-on-1 (yes, even Monk) since the Razorbacks have absoolutely 0 competency at QB. Would USC win 50-14? Doubt it. But, it would still be a blowout, imo. Arkansas is just too one-dimensional to match talents with USC.
 

VictorsValiant

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The article is terrible for several reasons.

First of all, there is a link between performance and worthiness. The best players MAKE THEIR TEAM BETTER. Troy Smith clearly fits this profile. He lifts everyone around him. BQ put up big numbers against crappy teams, and against big time opponents, he did not assert his leadership. In fact, he was arguing with Smardizda during the Michigan game. His respect on the team and in the press is directly linked to performance. But Troy Smith can have a bad game (Illinois) and still command the respect of his coaches and players. They don't have to worry about him the same way Weis does. Note that Weis babies Quinn by easing him into game with short passes first followed by more complicated schemes. The real reason Smith is worthy of the Heisman is his performance on the field IN ADDITION TO THE LEADERSHIP HE COMMANDS IN THE HUDDLE. I've always understood the Heisman in this way.

While it's true that Nd's OL was disappointing this year, you have to counter that with the meaningless numbers Quinn put up against Army, Navy, Stanford, North Carolina and Air Force. That's five games against the bottom of the D1 football. Smith didn't necessaily play in the toughest conference, and OSU did not play Wisconsin this year, but he did play well against Texas and Michigan, whereas Quinn played poorly against Michigan and USC. And even if you argue that his performance against USC was limited because of OL play (justified), you cannot make any excuses about his poor performances against Michigan and GTech. In both games, he clearly did not play well.
 
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jerseyborn1971

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The article is terrible for several reasons.

First of all, there is a link between performance and worthiness. The best players MAKE THEIR TEAM BETTER. Troy Smith clearly fits this profile. He lifts everyone around him. BQ put up big numbers against crappy teams, and against big time opponents, he did not assert his leadership. In fact, he was arguing with Smardizda during the Michigan game. His respect on the team and in the press is directly linked to performance. But Troy Smith can have a bad game (Illinois) and still command the respect of his coaches and players. They don't have to worry about him the same way Weis does. Note that Weis babies Quinn by easing him into game with short passes first followed by more complicated schemes. The real reason Smith is worthy of the Heisman is his performance on the field IN ADDITION TO THE LEADERSHIP HE COMMANDS IN THE HUDDLE. I've always understood the Heisman in this way.

While it's true that Nd's OL was disappointing this year, you have to counter that with the meaningless numbers Quinn put up against Army, Navy, Stanford, North Carolina and Air Force. That's five games against the bottom of the D1 football. Smith didn't necessaily play in the toughest conference, and OSU did not play Wisconsin this year, but he did play well against Texas and Michigan, whereas Quinn played poorly against Michigan and USC. And even if you argue that his performance against USC was limited because of OL play (justified), you cannot make any excuses about his poor performances against Michigan and GTech. In both games, he clearly did not play well.

dgio plays the music and then the monkey comes a runnin'! Just when I thought you'd make sense, YOU START DANCING FOR ME AGAIN!

DANCE HATER MONKEY DANCE!

Little advice, read all the posts related to BQ and the Heisman. They actually have facts and stats related to the "big games" that Brady played in that directly contradict your assumptions. As far as worrying about BQ in games, last time I checked TS didn't have to lead his team from behind in the clutch like BQ did against MSU & UCLA. I also recall ND beat GT because of a BQ running td. And didn't BQ thorw more TD's against PSU? Uh, yeah. BUt hey, TS beat Texas and Iowa. Ooooh, those wins don't quite pack the punch they once did. Hell, Monkey, I can make a case too if all I'm going to do is disagree with proven facts and pretend like they are true and they lay out subjective ideas as if they are fact.

This may have been your best number yet, though. I'm very proud. You hit all the major steps that a Dancing Hater Monkey has to hit. No facts. Biased opinions based on nothing presented as fact. And of course, mentioning the service academies and ignoring the lesser opponents of other teams. It's the Hater Monkey hat-trick!

I like what I'm reading, good job. Now....

DANCE HATER MONKEY DANCE!
 

VictorsValiant

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You need to check your own assumptions.

1. Smith didn't lead his team from behind.
Actually, he did just that against Michigan.
Secondly, that's such a crappy argument. If you're a great player and a leader, you wouldn't fall behind in the first place. This is why Florida will get blown out by OSU. Good players don't let their teams fall behind, but this was precisely the case with Quinn against MSU and UCLA. Instead of glorifying his performance in the 4th quarter, you have to ask youself how he dug himself in a hole in the first place.

2. Quinn put up similar numbers.
It's not always about the numbers. Like I said, he put up big numbers against crappy teams. Furthermore, he picked up a lot of numbers in the Michigan and USC game on what was essentially garbage time, when Michigan and USC were playing prevent defense to hold huge leads. It's not the same. Where was he in the first half when the game was still on the line?
And even if you insist on reading numbers only, you still lose the argument.
Quinn's QB rating against Michigan was 58.9 (low), against USC (90.4), against GTech (79.5). Smith's QB rating agianst Michigan was 115.5 (high), against Texas 125.3 (high).
 
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jerseyborn1971

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Still no stats or facts......I know stats are everything(especially when they contradict your argument).

He's a dance, dance, dance, dance dancing machine(watch him get down, watch him get down) as he do, do, do his thing on the computer screeeeen!

So, Troy DID fall behind, but if he was great he shouldn't have in the first place? Um...nope...not following?

Texas & Michigan. Texas lost 3 games with 2 to mediocre teams and is playing in the Alamo bowl. That was the 2nd best team he played. So essentially, he played 1 good team. The rest of OSU teams were junk. Period. Yeah, that's worthy.

USC & Michigan. 6 td's and 3 int's and over 5oo yards against the 2 teams playing in the BCS Rose bowl and battled it out for playing in the NC.

PSU. BQ=4tds./0 int TS=1td/1int

Every post is better and better. You're really getting in the groove now.

DANCE MONKEY DANCE!
 
F

FleaFlicker

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You need to check your own assumptions.

1. Smith didn't lead his team from behind.
Actually, he did just that against Michigan.
Secondly, that's such a crappy argument. If you're a great player and a leader, you wouldn't fall behind in the first place. This is why Florida will get blown out by OSU. Good players don't let their teams fall behind, but this was precisely the case with Quinn against MSU and UCLA. Instead of glorifying his performance in the 4th quarter, you have to ask youself how he dug himself in a hole in the first place.

2. Quinn put up similar numbers.
It's not always about the numbers. Like I said, he put up big numbers against crappy teams. Furthermore, he picked up a lot of numbers in the Michigan and USC game on what was essentially garbage time, when Michigan and USC were playing prevent defense to hold huge leads. It's not the same. Where was he in the first half when the game was still on the line?
And even if you insist on reading numbers only, you still lose the argument.
Quinn's QB rating against Michigan was 58.9 (low), against USC (90.4), against GTech (79.5). Smith's QB rating agianst Michigan was 115.5 (high), against Texas 125.3 (high).

1. I must have missed the memo that said Quinn single-handedly gave up 37 points to MSU. If OSU's defense gives up 37 points to MSU, it is a nail-biter as well... Would you fault Smith for getting them in that hole? No. Because he doesn't play defense.

In terms of UCLA, you saw last weekend how inspired that defense can play. The defense gave up 7 points to an electric USC offense. If you don't think UCLA was inspired to play ND, think again.

2. Your Michigan game is a valid argument. But that is the only one. Are you complimenting Smith's stats against a Texas defense that gave up 45 points to Kansas State?

Also, how hilarious is it that OSU and ND played three common opponents this year, yet you only choose to use the one that favors Smith, when comparing them. Quinn had better stats against PSU and MSU.
 
A

alexnd

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The article is terrible for several reasons.

First of all, there is a link between performance and worthiness. The best players MAKE THEIR TEAM BETTER. Troy Smith clearly fits this profile. He lifts everyone around him.
What? How? This is subjectivity defined....it rarely leads to any valid statements re: clarity. An how exactly does he lift everyone around him? Does he make T. Ginn faster? Does he make antonio pittman not fall down on first contact? Does he make linebackers intercept passes? Is he talking with the d-line telling them what to look for in the stances of the opposing o-lines? Seriously, this isnt basketball where being able to distract just one extra defender opens everything up. There are eleven guys on each side of the ball that need to know how to do their effing job. When only a few are capable against stiff competition, it doesnt matter if you have V. Young in the backfield, your team will lose.

BQ put up big numbers against crappy teams
As he should. So what?

and against big time opponents, he did not assert his leadership.
Again, what does this even mean? What sort of evidence supports this. When "analysts" start talking about crap like leadership it just shows their laziness and/or inability to research and place what has actually happened in context. You are either lazy or ignorant, which is it?

In fact, he was arguing with Smardizda during the Michigan game.
So he has some fire? He was torqued by the way the game was going. Wouldnt someone lacking leadership be sitting on his hands at the end of the bench crying to himself?
Again, this is just lazy.

His respect on the team and in the press is directly linked to performance.
Really? 7:1 TD:Int ratio against a top 30 schedule leads to a lack of respect? What did T. Smith put up against a weaker sched? 6:1. Thanks.

But Troy Smith can have a bad game (Illinois) and still command the respect of his coaches and players.
Wrong, T. Smith can have two terrible games (ILL and PSU) and 2 or 3 middling to average games and be bailed out by a dominating defense that doesnt allow his crap performance lead to a three TD deficit going into the second half.

They don't have to worry about him the same way Weis does.
More nonsense. Weis has to worry about him? Says who? you sure know a lot about the thinking of ND's head coach. And backed up with so many facts....crazy.

Note that Weis babies Quinn by easing him into game with short passes first followed by more complicated schemes.
Do you really watch football or do you just stare at the screen until the guy who's voice resonates from the speakers tells you points are scored by one team or another and then cheer or groan accordingly?

The real reason Smith is worthy of the Heisman is his performance on the field IN ADDITION TO THE LEADERSHIP HE COMMANDS IN THE HUDDLE.
LOUD NOISES!!!!
Anywho, this may have been a somewhat average conclusion to a logical argument had you at any point actually offerred some factual basis for it. Nice try. Good luck next time.

I've always understood the Heisman in this way.
I find it highly likely that you have a trouble understanding much in any meaningful way.

While it's true that Nd's OL was disappointing this year, you have to counter that with the meaningless numbers Quinn put up against Army, Navy, Stanford, North Carolina and Air Force.
Why do we have to counter the first part with the second? How are they equitable much less even viable comparison pieces. You obviously want to have then cancel each other, but you fail to even attempt to offer why.

That's five games against the bottom of the D1 football.
Wrong. UNC, Stanford and Army suck, but dont slight Navy or AF.

Smith didn't necessaily play in the toughest conference and OSU did not play Wisconsin this year
No, they most certainly did not play in the toughest conference, not just necessarily. the phrases are not interchangeable.

but he did play well against Texas and Michigan, whereas Quinn played poorly against Michigan and USC.
Finally you get down to something that can be discussed. Quinn, in those two games did not play as well as he could have. Say what you will about oline play or defense, Quinn still could have played better. He made some suspect throws even when not pressured. Say what you will about the scores being 60-0 if Quinn didnt play, ND still did not win.

Smith's team won the big games and he played well in them. Done.

And even if you argue that his performance against USC was limited because of OL play (justified), you cannot make any excuses about his poor performances against Michigan and GTech. In both games, he clearly did not play well.

He most certainly did not play poorly against GT. tough defense, no pics, nearly 250 yds in the air, one rushing touchdown and as you would say. willed his team to victory.
 

BGIF

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Jim Brown got robbed that year...

That was the only time a Heisman was awarded to someone on a team with a losing record

Jim Brown placed 5th. I'm sure race hurt him but it was a crowded field. The NFL blossomed into a prime time sport with the arrival of those players. Tennessee fans still bitch that Johnny Majors got screwed (and Phil Fulmer wasn't even around to stick the knife in his back). Tommy MacDonald and Tubbs both of the record setting Sooner dynasty split the West vote. John Brodie, Stanford, and Jon Arnett, USC, split a lot of West Coast votes. Ron Kramer, UM, and Jim Parker, OSU, got a lot of votes in the Midwest but Hornung got votes in all parts of the country.

ND only won 2 games but Hornung posted his numbers against the toughest schedule of the year. ND played #1 OU, #2 MSU, #3 Iowa, #17 USC, and #20 Pitt.

Hornung embodied the Heisman. He carried a weak Irish team on his back. He was QB and a star on defense (those were 60 Minute Man days), he kicked off and returned kicks, and did the place kicking. Everybody defense knew to key on Hornung but he still was 2nd in the nation in Total Offense. He had another 5 or 600 yds in kick returns, caught 3 passes, and had 60 yds of INT returns.

If Lou Holtz had had Hornung instead of Rice in his option offense, ND would have been undefeated for 3 years.
 

grantland

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dgio plays the music and then the monkey comes a runnin'! Just when I thought you'd make sense, YOU START DANCING FOR ME AGAIN!

DANCE HATER MONKEY DANCE!

Little advice, read all the posts related to BQ and the Heisman. They actually have facts and stats related to the "big games" that Brady played in that directly contradict your assumptions. As far as worrying about BQ in games, last time I checked TS didn't have to lead his team from behind in the clutch like BQ did against MSU & UCLA. I also recall ND beat GT because of a BQ running td. And didn't BQ thorw more TD's against PSU? Uh, yeah. BUt hey, TS beat Texas and Iowa. Ooooh, those wins don't quite pack the punch they once did. Hell, Monkey, I can make a case too if all I'm going to do is disagree with proven facts and pretend like they are true and they lay out subjective ideas as if they are fact.

This may have been your best number yet, though. I'm very proud. You hit all the major steps that a Dancing Hater Monkey has to hit. No facts. Biased opinions based on nothing presented as fact. And of course, mentioning the service academies and ignoring the lesser opponents of other teams. It's the Hater Monkey hat-trick!

I like what I'm reading, good job. Now....

DANCE HATER MONKEY DANCE!

Jersey - told ya he was still out there.

Correct me if I am wrong, is his major assumption (other than asssuming away the facts, of course) is that Troy Smith is a better leader (I think he even alluded to better CHARACTER) than Brady.

Oh, he's a dancin' now.
 
B

buckeyebacker

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Im new to this forum, what is this all about with Monkey's dancing??? I'm lost, lol
 
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jerseyborn1971

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When certain people come here just to bash ND disrespectfully with no facts or real argument to make I call them a Dancing Hater Monkey. It's fun to watch their hate go to ridiculous levels where they become a joke. Victor's Valiant was the first to be deemed DANCING HATER MONKEY. Although, sometimes he has pretty good posts. I just bust his chops now. Some others have earned DHM status, but they haven't come back.
 
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