2016 Presidential Horse Race

[kmoose]

I'm not trying to call you out and respect your opinion. But I'm sick of what has become a standard in American society nowadays. Which is hiding behind non-decisions, political correctness and rhetoric. We are all better off if people take responsibility for their actions and make clear choices.

I get your point about not dodging tough choices. I think there are times (like now) that are exceptions to the rule, but I understand what you are saying as an overall life philosophy. However, comma.............

NO ONE is better off if Clinton or Trump gets elected to the Presidency, unless your last name is Trump or Clinton. And you choosing the lesser of two evils is actively contributing to the result, while writing in a vote for someone else is, at worst, passively contributing to it. You would be just as guilty, and without an excuse, as anyone else.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I understand what you're saying, but I respectfully disagree. There's nothing to be proud of in taking the easy way out and absolving yourself of responsibility. Life doesn't work that way. Your decisions, or even not making a decision, has its consequences. You can be proud of not marking the box for one of the clear options, but that doesn't absolve you of the outcome. The hard thing to do in life is making the "right" decision. You can't go through life without being faced with the decision of picking between two evils. It's hard to make a decision between two bad options, but a decision has to be made no matter what. Because at the end of the day, you are making a decision, regardless if you think you can hide behind a not taking action.

I'm not trying to call you out and respect your opinion. But I'm sick of what has become a standard in American society nowadays. Which is hiding behind non-decisions, political correctness and rhetoric. We are all better off if people take responsibility for their actions and make clear choices.

I don't feel that sticking to my principals is taking the easy way out.

I also don't accept that you have to choose between only two options, if both are bad options. It's nature's design to rule out weak links and innovate to create better methods. With all due respect, toeing the line and voting R or D because those are the only real contenders, even though you disagree with them, is taking the easy way out. It's why I support a political revolution. Taking action and fighting back is not taking the easy way out. I refuse to just fall in line, plug my nose, and vote for the lesser of two evils.

 

[woolybug25]

I get your point about not dodging tough choices. I think there are times (like now) that are exceptions to the rule, but I understand what you are saying as an overall life philosophy. However, comma.............

NO ONE is better off if Clinton or Trump gets elected to the Presidency, unless your last name is Trump or Clinton. And you choosing the lesser of two evils is actively contributing to the result, while writing in a vote for someone else is, at worst, passively contributing to it. You would be just as guilty, and without an excuse, as anyone else.

Passively contributing is still contributing. But I would argue that it is not passive. As you are not given a choice not to contribute.

I don't feel that sticking to my principals is taking the easy way out.

I also don't accept that you have to choose between only two options, if both are bad options. It's nature's design to rule out weak links and innovate to create better methods. With all due respect, toeing the line and voting R or D because those are the only real contenders, even though you disagree with them, is taking the easy way out. It's why I support a political revolution. Taking action and fighting back is not taking the easy way out. I refuse to just fall in line, plug my nose, and vote for the lesser of two evils.

I don't accept that I'm not a millionaire, but there aren't any choices I can make today that change that. I can only make the best decisions today with the options I have at my disposal and try to make long term decisions that contribute to that end goal. Your stance of choosing to vote for a third party, while Nobel, does not change the likelihood of Trump or Clinton winning the nomination. In fact, it makes it only easier for one of them to win and the cycle you so deplore to continue

Even Bernie's "revolution" is grounded in winning a nomination through the only realistic option available, the democratic nomination. You're fooling yourself if you think a third part vote does anything more than what a third party vote did for Nader, Perot, etc. Its a fairy tale and part of being an adult is making tough decisions, even if it's one you don't agree with. Then learn from what got you into the situation of having to make that choice and working to make it not happen again.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Which is a vote for Trump. Gotcha.

I don't get the math logic, trumps losing in polls right. So if hes not voting for trump,then how is he (voting for trump) and not Hillary?

 

[woolybug25]

I don't get the math logic, trumps losing in polls right. So if hes not voting for trump,then how is he (voting for trump) and not Hillary?

He's a democrat not voting for a candidate. That takes a vote out of the democratic ticket pool. Not sure what's not to get.

 

[drayer54]

The debates will be telling. If he looks like a buffoon and her presidential... over.

If he can look decent/respectable and her look like a screaming nagging old hen who screams establishment politics... It's over on the other way.

 

[GoIrish41]

The debates are where she will separate herself. Like her or not she knows her shit. And he knows nothing. If she doesn't try to spar with him on his distracting insults, she will make him look idiotic. She just needs to deflect and pivot to message. Eventually he will be forced to answer substantive questions in detail and he will be exposed. You can't just keep saying what's wrong. You eventually have to hold coherent, fact based views on issues. I think he lacks the capacity to do that. The choice will become clear to all but his most feverish supporters in time.

 

[Irish YJ]

The debates are where she will separate herself. Like her or not she knows her shit. And he knows nothing. If she doesn't try to spar with him on his distracting insults, she will make him look idiotic. She just needs to deflect and pivot to message.

I don't think it's that simple. She has a lot of dings and dents that will be visible in the right light. The potential debates to come will be a whole different ballgame compared to the primaries. He is a buffoon, but it's not like she will crush him with her know-how and likeable personality. And buffoon doesn't necessarily equate to stupid or ignorant.

 

[GoIrish41]

I don't think it's that simple. She has a lot of dings and dents that will be visible in the right light. The potential debates to come will be a whole different ballgame compared to the primaries. He is a buffoon, but it's not like she will crush him with her know-how and likeable personality. And buffoon doesn't necessarily equate to stupid or ignorant.

I think a lot of folks will look past their distaste for Hillary and vote for her because they are terrified at the prospect of a Trump presidency. You know what you are getting with her. No earthly idea what Trump would do to this country. There are plenty of republicans who think he signals the end of the party. I doubt he's going to get their support. He needs to demonstrate that he is not a just a carnival barker but deserves to be on the same stage with her. I honestly don't think he is capable of that.

 

[Irish YJ]

I think a lot of folks will look past their distaste for Hillary and vote for her because they are terrified at the prospect of a Trump presidency. You know what you are getting with her. No earthly idea what Trump would do to this country. There are plenty of republicans who think he signals the end of the party. I doubt he's going to get their support. He needs to demonstrate that he is not a just a carnival barker but deserves to be on the same stage with her. I honestly don't think he is capable of that.

I'm not a big fan of Trump. And you're right, we all know what we will get from Hilldog. And we're not quite sure of what we'll get from Trump. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't want what I will get from Hilary. I'm not happy with the status quo from either side, and certainly not going to vote for someone just because "i know what to expect". I've known what to expect for the past XX years, and it's all sucked.

So really, what can Trump do that is so terrible. Build a wall? Create tougher laws around immigration? Play hard ball with a few countries that have been taking us to the bank for years. I for one am not in the camp that thinks Trump can do irreversible damage. I've seen damage done for a while, and I don't see him screwing up things any worse than the others.

You may be happy with the status quo, and I'm sure others are too. I'm not, nor are a lot of others. Sure, she will probably get elected, but I hope the whole system gets tested in the process. If he burns it down over the next 4 years, perhaps the parties will learn in the process.

 

[Irish YJ]

I think a lot of folks will look past their distaste for Hillary and vote for her because they are terrified at the prospect of a Trump presidency. You know what you are getting with her. No earthly idea what Trump would do to this country. There are plenty of republicans who think he signals the end of the party. I doubt he's going to get their support. He needs to demonstrate that he is not a just a carnival barker but deserves to be on the same stage with her. I honestly don't think he is capable of that.

PS, I found the bolded above seriously funny. Thanks for the laugh. It's been a rough week and needed it. If anything, they both deserve each other. Please do not act like she is a credible candidate beyond reproach.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Liberals in California today showing their true colors and belief in "tolerance" with Trump in town.

 

[GoIrish41]

I'm not a big fan of Trump. And you're right, we all know what we will get from Hilldog. And we're not quite sure of what we'll get from Trump. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't want what I will get from Hilary. I'm not happy with the status quo from either side, and certainly not going to vote for someone just because "i know what to expect". I've known what to expect for the past XX years, and it's all sucked.

So really, what can Trump do that is so terrible. Build a wall? Create tougher laws around immigration? Play hard ball with a few countries that have been taking us to the bank for years. I for one am not in the camp that thinks Trump can do irreversible damage. I've seen damage done for a while, and I don't see him screwing up things any worse than the others.

You may be happy with the status quo, and I'm sure others are too. I'm not, nor are a lot of others. Sure, she will probably get elected, but I hope the whole system gets tested in the process. If he burns it down over the next 4 years, perhaps the parties will learn in the process.

That's all fair, I respect your position. But I think he can do great and irreperable harm as president. His thoughts on immigration are fascist. Do you think he'd stop there? He's an idiot convinced of his own intellect and many positions he's taken would lead us in a bad direction. His ham fisted, simpleton approach would alienate us with our allies and everyone else. It is a sophisticated world and we need a sophisticated person to steer the ship. The status quo is the status quo just as it has always been. Things could get much, much worse. Much, much worse.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm not a big fan of Trump. And you're right, we all know what we will get from Hilldog. And we're not quite sure of what we'll get from Trump. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't want what I will get from Hilary. I'm not happy with the status quo from either side, and certainly not going to vote for someone just because "i know what to expect". I've known what to expect for the past XX years, and it's all sucked.

So really, what can Trump do that is so terrible. Build a wall? Create tougher laws around immigration? Play hard ball with a few countries that have been taking us to the bank for years. I for one am not in the camp that thinks Trump can do irreversible damage. I've seen damage done for a while, and I don't see him screwing up things any worse than the others.

You may be happy with the status quo, and I'm sure others are too. I'm not, nor are a lot of others. Sure, she will probably get elected, but I hope the whole system gets tested in the process. If he burns it down over the next 4 years, perhaps the parties will learn in the process.

I don't get how people can say "how much harm can he do" about a guy with zero political experience that has had the craziest comments/ideas of any candidate ever, but then say that the "career politician that will continue the status quo" will do irreparable damage. That's pretty counterintuitive.

 

[GoIrish41]

PS, I found the bolded above seriously funny. Thanks for the laugh. It's been a rough week and needed it. If anything, they both deserve each other. Please do not act like she is a credible candidate beyond reproach.

Ony the same stage, intellectually. I have been a Bernie man since before he announced. Hillary is the residue left at the bottom of the skillet when you fry political bullshit. I definitely have my issues with her, just as I did with Bill. But Bill wasn't running against a moron, tough guy, bigot. She is. Hillary, as flawed as she is, is the best defense right now against Trump.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

After the 10k refugee Obama lets in and the thousands more the next dem let in and they make a shit show everywhere, plz come back and tell me more about being a soft cudly teddy bear. Its the only policy I need to register and vote against 2 democrat pandering sympathizers

 

[Irish YJ]

That's all fair, I respect your position. But I think he can do great and irreperable harm as president. His thoughts on immigration are fascist. Do you think he'd stop there? He's an idiot convinced of his own intellect and many positions he's taken would lead us in a bad direction. His ham fisted, simpleton approach would alienate us with our allies and everyone else. It is a sophisticated world and we need a sophisticated person to steer the ship. The status quo is the status quo just as it has always been. Things could get much, much worse. Much, much worse.

So do you really think he will do everything he says? Do you think he'll have enough support to pass all those "fascist" ideals? At the end of the day, we have an immigration problem. Nobody has stepped up to take action. Nobody want's to offend the PC police. I'm all for people coming here the right way. However people are breaking the law coming here, and we act like it's OK?

You and I obviously disagree on what is the right direction and the wrong direction. You still haven't said what specifically he will do that cause irreversible damage. Logic would say he'll soften and compromise, or he won't succeed in getting anything done.

As for the world being sophisticated. It's been made too complex because of sophisticated seasoned politicians. It's time we start doing things that are simple(ton), and keep the money here in the US for our legal citizens. Let's stop funding other countries and send our kids to school. Why the hell are we protecting Europe. Why are sending money to Africa, the ME, and other places when our people here are living in poverty. The answer doesn't always have to be raise taxes. Sometimes it can be as simple as "stop giving it away". I don't want to be the world police, nor the world protector nor world soup kitchen. Other countries need to step up and share the burdens.

I don't get how people can say "how much harm can he do" about a guy with zero political experience that has had the craziest comments/ideas of any candidate ever, but then say that the "career politician that will continue the status quo" will do irreparable damage. That's pretty counterintuitive.

So what exactly do you think he would get past the house and senate that is so crazy and harmful.

 

[GoIrish41]

So do you really think he will do everything he says? Do you think he'll have enough support to pass all those "fascist" ideals? At the end of the day, we have an immigration problem. Nobody has stepped up to take action. Nobody want's to offend the PC police. I'm all for people coming here the right way. However people are breaking the law coming here, and we act like it's OK?

You and I obviously disagree on what is the right direction and the wrong direction. You still haven't said what specifically he will do that cause irreversible damage. Logic would say he'll soften and compromise, or he won't succeed in getting anything done.

As for the world being sophisticated. It's been made too complex because of sophisticated seasoned politicians. It's time we start doing things that are simple(ton), and keep the money here in the US for our legal citizens. Let's stop funding other countries and send our kids to school. Why the hell are we protecting Europe. Why are sending money to Africa, the ME, and other places when our people here are living in poverty. The answer doesn't always have to be raise taxes. Sometimes it can be as simple as "stop giving it away". I don't want to be the world police, nor the world protector nor world soup kitchen. Other countries need to step up and share the burdens.



So what exactly do you think he would get past the house and senate that is so crazy and harmful.

He'd be the commander in chief with profound powers to wage war -- declared or not. His comments about the potential use of nukes is absolutely terrifying. Any proposals he makes would move policy he suggests in his direction because it would be on the table. We might not get what he wants, but it will be closer to his twisted vision.

 

[Irish YJ]

Ony the same stage, intellectually. I have been a Bernie man since before he announced. Hillary is the residue left at the bottom of the skillet when you fry political bullshit. I definitely have my issues with her, just as I did with Bill. But Bill wasn't running against a moron, tough guy, bigot. She is. Hillary, as flawed as she is, is the best defense right now against Trump.

Trump has as much intelligence as Hilary. Just because you disagree with his thinking, doesn't mean he has less grey matter. Don't confuse being smart with political savvy or status quo political sleaziness. You can call his ideals idiotic, and that's your right. Realize though that's your opinion, and not an absolute.

As far as Hilary goes, she's proven she can lie and disregard security protocol. She hasn't really proven anything else. At least not to me.

 

[Irish YJ]

He'd be the commander in chief with profound powers to wage war -- declared or not. His comments about the potential use of nukes is absolutely terrifying. Any proposals he makes would move policy he makes in his direction. We might not get what he wants, but it will be closer to his twisted vision.

He's not going to nuke anyone. The whole chicken little sky if falling thing is funny to me. So he talks big.

I certainly hope some of his proposals move policy away from where it's currently at. Not all of his vision is "twisted". If his bigoted rhetoric translates into tougher immigration laws, OK. I can do without the bigot crap, but I'm happy to see some tougher immigration measures.

 

[GoIrish41]

Trump has as much intelligence as Hilary. Just because you disagree with his thinking, doesn't mean he has less grey matter. Don't confuse being smart with political savvy or status quo political sleaziness. You can call his ideals idiotic, and that's your right. Realize though that's your opinion, and not an absolute.

As far as Hilary goes, she's proven she can lie and disregard security protocol. She hasn't really proven anything else. At least not to me.

It's not just my opinion. Many in the GOP feel the same. And almost all of the lefties cannot imagine a world with Trump as president. When the general election debates start, there will be separation. I do t think anyone believes it will play out any other way -- the sleazy politician will trounce the loudmouth. Some in the GOP are reluctantly accepting that he is the nominee now, but he will be a stain on that party for decades.

 

[Irish YJ]

It's not just my opinion. Many in the GOP feel the same. And almost all of the lefties cannot imagine a world with Trump as president. When the general election debates start, there will be separation. I do t think anyone believes it will play out any other way -- the sleazy politician will trounce the loudmouth. Some in the GOP are reluctantly accepting that he is the nominee now, but he will be a stain on that party for decades.

A stain for decades? LOL. A little dramatic.... Is there any part of the fabric from either side that isn't already discolored?

So... sleazy politician > loudmouth...
It's a sad sad world when we have these two to pick from.

 

[kmoose]

He'd be the commander in chief with profound powers to wage war -- declared or not. His comments about the potential use of nukes is absolutely terrifying. Any proposals he makes would move policy he suggests in his direction because it would be on the table. We might not get what he wants, but it will be closer to his twisted vision.

You should be WAY more scared of the North Koreans having SLBMs, than ANYTHING Trump might do...

 

[GoIrish41]

You should be WAY more scared of the North Koreans having SLBMs, than ANYTHING Trump might do...

Im more afraid of what Trump might do BECAUSE NK has SLBMs.

 

[kmoose]

Im more afraid of what Trump might do BECAUSE NK has SLBMs.

Why? That crazy fvck in North Korea is twice as bat-shit crazy as Trump could ever hope to be.

 

[GoIrish41]

Why? That crazy fvck in North Korea is twice as bat-shit crazy as Trump could ever hope to be.

Is he? Not convinced about that. But even so, Trump would have access to a nuke arsenal that NK could only dream about.

 

[Irish YJ]

Im more afraid of what Trump might do BECAUSE NK has SLBMs.

Sure, because everything we've done the last XX years has worked to improve the NK situation. Come on man. So Trump's going to nuke them and start WW3. Chicken little again.

 

[kmoose]

Is he? Not convinced about that. But even so, Trump would have access to a nuke arsenal that NK could only dream about.

All it takes is one, and the willingness to use it. I have no doubt that fat little bastard over there would let one fly, if he thought he could take out, say, Pearl Harbor. Or maybe Fort Hood.

 

[GoIrish41]

Sure, because everything we've done the last XX years has worked to improve the NK situation. Come on man. So Trump's going to nuke them and start WW3. Chicken little again.

I'm not the guy who said nukes are not off the table ... even with our allies. Ask them how they feel about chicken little.

 

[GoIrish41]

All it takes is one, and the willingness to use it. I have no doubt that fat little bastard over there would let one fly, if he thought he could take out, say, Pearl Harbor. Or maybe Fort Hood.

How confident are you that Trump wouldn't nuke somewhere in the Middle East ... where all the crazy terrorists live?