Player Rankings vs Player Development

[Grahambo]

Rankings for kids coming out of high school are a hot debate with several of the recruiting agencies reporting different "stars" to players and giving different grades. Much is to be made about how these recruiting sites come to their conclusions. I came across this article that lists a number of players from both the Patriots and Giants and what their ratings were coming out of high school. Thought a friendly debate can evolve from this in the "Player Rankings vs Player Development" debate.

How were the Super Bowl players ranked as recruits? « HolyTurf


New England
DB Kyle Arrington-Hofstra, unranked (basically means he was a zero star)
DB Patrick Chung-Oregon, 2 star
TE Rob Gronkowski-Arizona, 4 star
TE Aaron Hernandez-Florida, 4 star
DT Kyle Love-Mississippi State, 2 star
LB Jerod Mayo-Tennessee, 4 star
DB Devin McCourty-Rutgers, 2-star
LB Rob Ninkovich-Purdue, 3 star out of JC
OL Nate Solder-Colorado, 3-star
LB Brandon Spikes-Florida, 5-star

New York Giants
TE Jake Ballard-Ohio State, 4 star
RB Ahmad Bradshaw-Virginia, then Marshall, 3 star
WR Victor Cruz- Umass, 1 star
FB Henry Hynoski-Pittsburgh, 3 star
DT Linval Joseph-East Carolina, 3 star
WR Hakeem Nicks-North Carolina, 4 star
OL Mitch Petrus-Arkansas, walk-on
DB Kenny Phillips-Miami, 5 star
DE Jason Pierre-Paul-USF, 4 star out of JC
DB Aaron Ross-Texas, 4 star

It doesn't list every single person on each team but gives some idea as to some of the key players involved with both teams. For the record, I believe in player development over player rankings.

This isn't going to satisfy either party as there are ALWAYS exceptions. Feel free to tear this up, tear me up, or engage in some friendly debate. NSD is around the corner and after that, it's gonna be hard times until the Spring game and then practice and finally the season, thought this debate could soften the blow.

 

[PANDFAN]

Henry Hynoski lived down the road from me...

 

[Grahambo]

Henry Hynoski lived down the road from me...

There is no way he could have been anything else other then a football player with that name. Disliked him college but love him on the G-Men.

 

[PANDFAN]

There is no way he could have been anything else other then a football player with that name. Disliked him college but love him on the G-Men.

he was a running back in high school...he completely dominated the competition even as a freshman...he went to the same high school as a former ND player who was buried at the fullback position back a couple of years ago and then transfered to Temple

 

[IrishNJ89]

What were Eli and Brady? Anybody know?

 

[kmoose]

What were Eli and Brady? Anybody know?

Friends With Benefits, if the rumors are true.

 

[anarin]

WR Victor Cruz- Umass, 1 star

nice..

 

[IrishinSyria]

well under 1% of 2* and under recruits will ever sniff an NFL team. Development is important, but football is a physical game. People usually either have or don't have the raw physical tools needed to be elite by the time they're done with high school.

 

[GowerND11]

he was a running back in high school...he completely dominated the competition even as a freshman...he went to the same high school as a former ND player who was buried at the fullback position back a couple of years ago and then transfered to Temple

I had the Ahem "pleasure" of playing against Hyno when we were both seniors in a state playoff game. He was an absolute beast. That entire team was in a whole other league in terms of size and talent. For playing single A ball they were HUGE and FAST. The fact that he was bigger than 3 of our starting offensive linemen told the story.... Congrats to him!!!

 

[PANDFAN]

I had the Ahem "pleasure" of playing against Hyno when we were both seniors in a state playoff game. He was an absolute beast. That entire team was in a whole other league in terms of size and talent. For playing single A ball they were HUGE and FAST. The fact that he was bigger than 3 of our starting offensive linemen told the story.... Congrats to him!!!

awesome man!

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

well under 1% of 2* and under recruits will ever sniff an NFL team. Development is important, but football is a physical game. People usually either have or don't have the raw physical tools needed to be elite by the time they're done with high school.

Well, considering only 2.4% of all players actually make it to the NFL...just under 1% is pretty good for 2* or below.

 

[House16]

Yeah I've gotta add on here how much the player development matters. ND's had a top 10 recruiting class 5 of the past 6 years (according to ESPN, at least) but it hasn't translated into anywhere near BCS wins. I think to an extent, there's an overemphasis here placed on recruiting. Recruiting isn't the only thing that affects putting up W's in the fall. It's VERY common for the top recruits to fizzle and for the best in the nation to not have been highly recruited. Just my opinion...

 

[Irish YJ]

Good arguments on all sides. Takes both to be BCS contenders on a regular basis. Having one of the other might work once in blue moon, but not over the years.

 

[Irishman77]

I saw an article some time ago about how many pro bowl players were 5-7 round picks and how many players were undrafted. Can't find it but it was glaring how 5 star prospects and first round draft picks fold like a chair when introduced to a new level of competition that requires more of themselves. Such is life.

 

[Domina Nostra]

From the Jaylon thread...

NDAccountant, I was not talking about draft position but making it to the NFL. That is another argument--and a fair one--but I was not making that point.

The Rivals Top 100 is a better gague, but it's still not really what I am getting at. To use an example, I don't think Amir Carlisle projects as an NFL RB, and it did not make a difference that he committed to USC or transferred to ND. He is too small (He was 93 in the Rivals 100). Alabama's string of RBs, on the other hand, is based on the fact that they land complete studs with proto-typical NFL bodies. Ingram, who was a Top 200 guy, was 5'10", 200 lbs, and ran a legit 4.4 in high school. Trent Richardson is the proto-type's prototype. I am arguing that ND does not get in the way of guys like Trent Richardson making it to the NFL, any more than any other school.

Rueland is a bad example since we've had 4 guys in a row at his position make it to the NFL for good careers. If anything, ND is Tier 1 when it comes to TE. So his choosing ND proves my point. You are not guaranteed yourself the NFL by committing to a powerhouse.

And I do not think that guys like EJ or Kamara would have gotten drafted or drafted higher had they gone to Florida or USC or Alabama. They just didn't have the size (in some cases) or speed (in others) to be drafted higher (durability issues as well). That was not going to change based on development.

Same for a guy like D. Jones who came to ND to play QB though he certainly does not project to play QB in the NFL.

The best examples on that list are guys like Clausen, Floyd, Crist, Ragone, Gray, Robinson, Aldridge, and Gray- guys that everyone wanted that actually projected well for the NFL.

Ragone, Aldridge, and Gray were side-lined by injuries. I doubt they would have fared better at USC or Alabama. Perhaps Gray would have gotten his act together sooner at Alabama? That is a possibility, but he certainly does not seem to have that laser focus that their RBs have.

The knock on Clausen seems to be lack of athleticism. That was not development. I do think he would have been drafted higher had he gone to USC. Winning matters for QBs, whatever the actual reasons for doing so.

Crist was a bust. Would he be starting over Barkley right now at USC? Would have beaten out USC's own 5-star bust, Mitch Mustain for the back-up spot? I doubt it.

Some of those other guys did not do great at ND, but can Alabama, USC, or Florida claim that they do not have their fair share of those guys? I have a family friend who was a 4 star DE who signed with Alabama and never played a minute. His heart was in baseball and the depth chart at Alabama is wicked.

So my pooint... Schools like Maryland and Illinois put guys in the lague when they have the right measurables. Alabama, Florida, USC, etc., have many more of those guys than anyone else.

 

[yankeeND]

There is really no way to measure the drive of a person that is undervalued. Like above where Cruz was brought up. It's more than likely the work that he put in behind the seems that made him great. You just gotta remember, it works both ways with 5* flops and 2* diamonds in the rough.

 

[Ndaccountant]

From the Jaylon thread...

NDAccountant, I was not talking about draft position but making it to the NFL. That is another argument--and a fair one--but I was not making that point.

The Rivals Top 100 is a better gague, but it's still not really what I am getting at. To use an example, I don't think Amir Carlisle projects as an NFL RB, and it did not make a difference that he committed to USC or transferred to ND. He is too small (He was 93 in the Rivals 100). Alabama's string of RBs, on the other hand, is based on the fact that they land complete studs with proto-typical NFL bodies. Ingram, who was a Top 200 guy, was 5'10", 200 lbs, and ran a legit 4.4 in high school. Trent Richardson is the proto-type's prototype. I am arguing that ND does not get in the way of guys like Trent Richardson making it to the NFL, any more than any other school.

Rueland is a bad example since we've had 4 guys in a row at his position make it to the NFL for good careers. If anything, ND is Tier 1 when it comes to TE. So his choosing ND proves my point. You are not guaranteed yourself the NFL by committing to a powerhouse.

And I do not think that guys like EJ or Kamara would have gotten drafted or drafted higher had they gone to Florida or USC or Alabama. They just didn't have the size (in some cases) or speed (in others) to be drafted higher (durability issues as well). That was not going to change based on development.

Same for a guy like D. Jones who came to ND to play QB though he certainly does not project to play QB in the NFL.

The best examples on that list are guys like Clausen, Floyd, Crist, Ragone, Gray, Robinson, Aldridge, and Gray- guys that everyone wanted that actually projected well for the NFL.

Ragone, Aldridge, and Gray were side-lined by injuries. I doubt they would have fared better at USC or Alabama. Perhaps Gray would have gotten his act together sooner at Alabama? That is a possibility, but he certainly does not seem to have that laser focus that their RBs have.

The knock on Clausen seems to be lack of athleticism. That was not development. I do think he would have been drafted higher had he gone to USC. Winning matters for QBs, whatever the actual reasons for doing so.

Crist was a bust. Would he be starting over Barkley right now at USC? Would have beaten out USC's own 5-star bust, Mitch Mustain for the back-up spot? I doubt it.

Some of those other guys did not do great at ND, but can Alabama, USC, or Florida claim that they do not have their fair share of those guys? I have a family friend who was a 4 star DE who signed with Alabama and never played a minute. His heart was in baseball and the depth chart at Alabama is wicked.

So my pooint... Schools like Maryland and Illinois put guys in the lague when they have the right measurables. Alabama, Florida, USC, etc., have many more of those guys than anyone else.

I'm not trying to belabor the point, but I guess the problem I have your comments above about the likes EJ, Kamara, etc is that it hits on a key point. First, not everyone in the top 100 makes it to the NFL. However, ND seems to have a higher number miss than most "big time" football programs. For example, Kamara was a top player coming out of HS. He had size and decent speed. What makes him different than a guy like Earl Bennet or Eric Decker? IMO, nothing except that those two players for whatever reason improved a great deal in college. Neither guy is blazing quick, but both have caught on (pun intended).

Now, the pro style system or a spread system is an interesting dynamic to the draft and I agree that it impacts players value. However, knowing that players want to get to the NFL (even ones that want a good education too, like a Floyd) why wouldn't you want to employ a similar style to attract talent? Over the years schools that had consistent success come from this system.

IMO, the name of the game is to attract and develop talent and sometimes its hard to identify which is the chicken and which is the egg.

I think ND had classes that were overrated and also suffered from lack of development. I do believe that Kelly is changing this tho. IMO, in the future ND will be able to attract guys that will become top draft picks, which afterall, is each kid's dream.