Where is the sanity?

[Patulski]

I am not one of the ND fans who expects a BCS bowl every season. However, I expect competence and improvement, as do the other posters on this site. I didn't care how many game we won now/this past season. I wanted improvement to set up for the coming years. No reasonable person expected a championship from ND in Kelly's second year. However, it was a valuable opportunity to establish the QB position and provide crucial experience for the more important 3rd and 4th years of his coaching tenure. That is why I'm disappointed.

What if by establishing the QB position, and by that I presume you mean playing Golson and Hendrix (or all three God forbid), we went 5-6, didn't play in a bowl game, and had a 25th ranked recruiting class as a result? These are the things Kelly had to look at when thinking strategically. Could he sell a program that regressed in the won-loss column in his 2nd year? Was it worth the risk? Nobody knows what would have happened, but it has to be considered when looking at the past season.

If there's one thing I'm certain of it is this: We have to get better players, and that can only be done with recruiting. Development of average players with low ceilings can only go so far.

 

[phork]

What if by establishing the QB position, and by that I presume you mean playing Golson and Hendrix (or all three God forbid), we went 5-6, didn't play in a bowl game, and had a 25th ranked recruiting class as a result? These are the things Kelly had to look at when thinking strategically. Could he sell a program that regressed in the won-loss column in his 2nd year? Was it worth the risk? Nobody knows what would have happened, but it has to be considered when looking at the past season.

If there's one thing I'm certain of it is this: We have to get better players, and that can only be done with recruiting. Development of average players with low ceilings can only go so far.

But but but but Kelly did more with less at his other stops?

 

[Buster Bluth]

But but but but Kelly did more with less at his other stops?

Holy hell you are one remarkably pessimistic person.

 

[phork]

Holy hell you are one remarkably pessimistic person.

I'm just saying. Nothing pessimistic about my comment.

 

[SoCalDomer]

But but but but Kelly did more with less at his other stops?

While pessimistic, this is correct. Anyone who thinks the recruiting classes at Cincinnati were anywhere close to what ND had in 2010 when Kelly was first hired, feel free to go do the research then tell us what you find.

From 04-06, Cincinnati's classes never cracked the top 50(rivals) and in fact were dead last or 2nd to last even amongst the Big East Conference. That was even true for Brian Kelly until 2009 when he signed the #5 ranked class. No, not the #5 class overall, that was the 5th best class in the Big East. Meanwhile ND in the 3-years prior to Kelly were #8, #1, #21.

No wonder ND's hiring team decided to go with Brian Kelly. He did an incredible job at Cincinnati with the lowest rated recruiting classes.

But there is no reason the offense should have been as anemic as it was this year at ND. He had two QBs ranked much higher than any other he has ever coached; the best one he couldn't seem to work with, the other he sat until the end of the season in favor of a less talented option.

Now, Brian and staff definitely deserve credit on defense. They have not only recruited better defensive classes both from a talent and numbers standpoint, but they've also produced a better product. If ND's 2011 defense were coupled with 2009's offense, USC and Stanford could have been wins.

 

[kmoose]

But there is no reason the offense should have been as anemic as it was this year at ND. He had two QBs ranked much higher than any other he has ever coached

The lesson? Recruiting rankings are not realible. They may be a general indication of how well a high school player will translate to college football. But, a 5* ranking is certainly no guarantee that the kid will be successful, or even decent.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Kelly did more with less, against less. That is the difference.

And Cincinnati's receiving corp is more athletic and their quarterbacks were far better. That is also a major difference.

 

[enrico514]

Kelly did more with less, against less. That is the difference.

And Cincinnati's receiving corp is more athletic and their quarterbacks were far better. That is also a major difference.

I believe he managed to beat teams we could't beat...

 

[SoCalDomer]

The lesson? Recruiting rankings are not realible. They may be a general indication of how well a high school player will translate to college football. But, a 5* ranking is certainly no guarantee that the kid will be successful, or even decent.

So you're saying you'd be okay with Brian Kelly signing a class full of two and three stars?

I didn't think so. You know as well as I do you want the highest rated class of recruits AND then you want a coach to develop them.

And actually, the recruiting rankings have proven to be reliable (not guaratees) of predicting college success.

 

[kmoose]

So you're saying you'd be okay with Brian Kelly signing a class full of two and three stars?

I didn't think so. You know as well as I do you want the highest rated class of recruits AND then you want a coach to develop them.

And actually, the recruiting rankings have proven to be reliable (not guaratees) of predicting college success.

What I'm saying is that just because he had two QBs, this year, that were higher ranked than any he had ever had before...... that doesn't mean that we should have expected any specific level of development. Lots of 5* rated kids never pan out.

 

[SoCalDomer]

Kelly did more with less, against less. That is the difference.

No, while at Cincinnati he didn't beat lesser teams with less. While at Cincinnati, he beat better teams (better than Cincinnati) with less. Let me post this again since it seems to have been ignored:

From 04-06, Cincinnati's classes never cracked the top 50(rivals) and in fact were dead last or 2nd to last even amongst the Big East Conference. That was even true for Brian Kelly until 2009 when he signed the #5 ranked class. No, not the #5 class overall, that was the 5th best class in the Big East.

Cincinnati was dead last (or 2nd to last) in recruiting in the Big East every year prior to, and all but one year during, the Brian Kelly era. Despite that fact, he only lost 3-Big East games while coaching at Cincinnati, and two of those came in his first season. Brian Kelly did an incredible job coaching at Cincinnati and regularly beat better teams with less talent than those teams. In fact, as someone stated above, he sometimes beat better Big East teams that ND could not beat.

And Cincinnati's receiving corp is more athletic and their quarterbacks were far better. That is also a major difference.

Cincinnati had far better talent than Notre Dame has at the QB and WR positions? Please show me the recruiting rankings that support that statement.

 

[SoCalDomer]

What I'm saying is that just because he had two QBs, this year, that were higher ranked than any he had ever had before...... that doesn't mean that we should have expected any specific level of development. Lots of 5* rated kids never pan out.

Actually, 63% of the 5-star QBs (rivals) from 2002-2009 have good to great careers and end up in the NFL. So when a QB is rated a 5-star, more likely than not (meaning greater than 50% chance) they do very well. I agree with you its no guarantee. But when a recruit is rated that high, it is still more likely they will do well.

It is possible that Dayne Crist was just one of those that didn't pan out. Yes. But itsn't it also possible Brian Kelly just did not coach him up well?

If we're open to the fact that sometimes the players don't play up to their potential, isn't it also possible that sometimes coaches don't coach up to their potential?

I'm not saying I know which is which in this case or others, but I think there is reasonable basis to believe the alternative (the coach messed up) is possible too.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

63% of the 5-star QBs (rivals) from 2002-2009 have good to great careers and end up in the NFL.

It is possible that Dayne Crist was just one of those that didn't pan out. But itsn't it also possible Brian Kelly just did not coach him up well? Or is Kelly only able to coach up the 3-star guys?

If we're open to the fact that sometimes the players don't play up to their potential, isn't it also possible that sometimes coaches don't coach up to their potential?

I'm not saying I know which is which in this case or others, but I think there is reasonable basis to believe the alternative (the coach messed up) is possible too.

Dayne also was in a terrible situation. He was groomed for two years to take over one offense, got hurt, came in to run a totally different offense, got hurt again, then didn't seem to excel in the new offense. Maybe he'll figure it out at KU (here's hoping).

You're right about 5* guys. They are statistically waaaaaay more likely to be stars than others, even if there are outlier 3* guys who end up being studs (the ones that everyone likes to point to).

 

[kmoose]

Actually, 63% of the 5-star QBs (rivals) from 2002-2009 have good to great careers and end up in the NFL. So when a QB is rated a 5-star, more likely than not (meaning greater than 50% chance) they do very well. I agree with you its no guarantee. But when a recruit is rated that high, it is still more likely they will do well.

It is possible that Dayne Crist was just one of those that didn't pan out. Yes. But itsn't it also possible Brian Kelly just did not coach him up well?

If we're open to the fact that sometimes the players don't play up to their potential, isn't it also possible that sometimes coaches don't coach up to their potential?

I'm not saying I know which is which in this case or others, but I think there is reasonable basis to believe the alternative (the coach messed up) is possible too.

It's certainly possible. It just seems like many posters on here are starting to present the idea as if it is an absolute fact, not just one possibility.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

you guys make great points in alot of subjects so i'll bite how long do I wait to start complaining?

 

[NDMontana]

Seriously, many of you are sounding like the biggest bunch of wimps on earth, and this isn't even Irish Illustrated.

Kelly's seat is getting warmer?

FIRE DIACO????

Get a hold of yourselves women.

I wise man would have bet in favor Florida State to begin with. Notre Dame doesn't have a good quarterback and that is apparent; he has failed against every athletic defense he has seen. The fumble recovery was a gift and the touchdown would have been intercepted if Michael Floyd wasn't sent by God himself to play football dominantly for the Irish.

Please just learn how to direct your criticism, so yo don't start sounding like a 12-year old boy.

You saw Brian Kelly's offense put up some gaudy numbers this seasonwith Tommy Rees. Relax, breathe, and realize that in the future you won't be watching Tommy Rees throwing up prayers to John "Fair Catch" Goodman; you'll be seeing guys like Deontay Greenberry and Davaris Daniels sprint past dudes with bombs from Everett Golson.

This is still only the beginning, so have some freaking patience. If for nothing else than for the sake of my blood pressure.

We are a reactionary society, in general. There is no patience, no room for growth. As I've said numerous times, the more successful organizations in professional and college sports have stability in their programs. That doesn't mean you retain a coach whose been at the program for 10 years with mediocre results. It does mean that you don't call for a guy's head after anything less than five seasons. ND fans and, if they are part of the contigent that's grumbling, boosters just need to calm down and give it time. This program has been cloaked in mediocrity for 15 years--that doesn't change over night.

 

[returnofthemack]

What if by establishing the QB position, and by that I presume you mean playing Golson and Hendrix (or all three God forbid), we went 5-6, didn't play in a bowl game, and had a 25th ranked recruiting class as a result? These are the things Kelly had to look at when thinking strategically. Could he sell a program that regressed in the won-loss column in his 2nd year? Was it worth the risk? Nobody knows what would have happened, but it has to be considered when looking at the past season.

If there's one thing I'm certain of it is this: We have to get better players, and that can only be done with recruiting. Development of average players with low ceilings can only go so far.

Our record this year had little to no impact on most of our recruits. Do you really think they look at the 8-5 record as a huge departure from 5-6 (not that they would go 5-6 with Hendrix; none of us know what would have happened)? These are guys getting recruited by elite schools with better records than us. They are coming here for other reasons. Otherwise, there would have been quite a few decommits after the bowl loss. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly's handling of the ND Qbs was a prominent factor in Gunner Kiel going to LSU.

 

[oddz313]

There's no question that he's a good coach and is better than Dantonio and Weis. However, that doesn't mean that he's the next Lou Holtz, so I don't understand peoples' faith in him.

I'm not completely sure that kelly is better. Dantonio has done more with less so far but it is early yet

 

[mpkennedy3]

I'm not completely sure that kelly is better. Dantonio has done more with less so far but it is early yet

Key is it is early and Kelly has a proven track record. I think Kelly Is on the right track and he is recruiting the right type of players. Remember when Davies won, he won with Holtz's players. When Willingham won, he won with Davies' players. When Weis won he won with Willingham's players. None of the above have been able to win with their own players. I believe Kelly will change this trend. Golson is truly his first qb recruit. I think as Kelly recruits his types of players on offense we will see better results.

 

[Patulski]

Our record this year had little to no impact on most of our recruits. Do you really think they look at the 8-5 record as a huge departure from 5-6 (not that they would go 5-6 with Hendrix; none of us know what would have happened)? These are guys getting recruited by elite schools with better records than us. They are coming here for other reasons. Otherwise, there would have been quite a few decommits after the bowl loss. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly's handling of the ND Qbs was a prominent factor in Gunner Kiel going to LSU.

First of all, we played 13 games. So, we could never be 5-6. And yes, our recruits are being recruited by elite schools. Elite schools that WIN. To think that players aren't coming here to win is not rational. Kelly is constantly talking about Championship football. What did he do immediately after the bowl loss? He talked about the pride and tradition of Notre Dame football, which is a winning tradition. He also emphasized that we already have a Championship defense. He knows that winning matters to players, and I'm quite certain he's selling winning right now as we speak. 3 of our losses were by 11 points total. I'm certain he's saying we're right on the cusp to greatness, that we have a Championship defense and when we get a championship offense we'll win a National Championship. So, I'm glad we won 8, even though we should have won 11. I fully support Kelly and believe he's got us headed in the right direction. Finally, I could care less who doesn't come to ND. I'm focusing on who's coming and I'm supporting them and this staff.

 

[mpkennedy3]

First of all, we played 13 games. So, we could never be 5-6. And yes, our recruits are being recruited by elite schools. Elite schools that WIN. To think that players aren't coming here to win is not rational. Kelly is constantly talking about Championship football. What did he do immediately after the bowl loss? He talked about the pride and tradition of Notre Dame football, which is a winning tradition. He also emphasized that we already have a Championship defense. He knows that winning matters to players, and I'm quite certain he's selling winning right now as we speak. 3 of our losses were by 11 points total. I'm certain he's saying we're right on the cusp to greatness, that we have a Championship defense and when we get a championship offense we'll win a National Championship. So, I'm glad we won 8, even though we should have won 11. I fully support Kelly and believe he's got us headed in the right direction. Finally, I could care less who doesn't come to ND. I'm focusing on who's coming and I'm supporting them and this staff.

Great post, totally agree

 

[DillonHall]

LOL, Kelly said we have a championship level defense?

 

[returnofthemack]

First of all, we played 13 games. So, we could never be 5-6. And yes, our recruits are being recruited by elite schools. Elite schools that WIN. To think that players aren't coming here to win is not rational. Kelly is constantly talking about Championship football. What did he do immediately after the bowl loss? He talked about the pride and tradition of Notre Dame football, which is a winning tradition. He also emphasized that we already have a Championship defense. He knows that winning matters to players, and I'm quite certain he's selling winning right now as we speak. 3 of our losses were by 11 points total. I'm certain he's saying we're right on the cusp to greatness, that we have a Championship defense and when we get a championship offense we'll win a National Championship. So, I'm glad we won 8, even though we should have won 11. I fully support Kelly and believe he's got us headed in the right direction. Finally, I could care less who doesn't come to ND. I'm focusing on who's coming and I'm supporting them and this staff.

You said 5-6 in your post so I thought you were discounting the USF game since Dayne started. And you just echoed my point. The recruits we have are coming because of ND's elite academic status, winning tradition, and Kelly has sold them his belief that this team is getting better - not because of our wins against service academies and some awful ACC teams. The smart recruits don't judge based on one season's record, they judge based on the coach's ability to develop players and whether the team is improving. The team would have improved with one of the younger and better QBs. It may not have finished with the same record, but as I said, it wouldn't have mattered.

 

[Rocket89]

Actually, 63% of the 5-star QBs (rivals) from 2002-2009 have good to great careers and end up in the NFL. So when a QB is rated a 5-star, more likely than not (meaning greater than 50% chance) they do very well. I agree with you its no guarantee. But when a recruit is rated that high, it is still more likely they will do well.

It is possible that Dayne Crist was just one of those that didn't pan out. Yes. But itsn't it also possible Brian Kelly just did not coach him up well?

If we're open to the fact that sometimes the players don't play up to their potential, isn't it also possible that sometimes coaches don't coach up to their potential?

I'm not saying I know which is which in this case or others, but I think there is reasonable basis to believe the alternative (the coach messed up) is possible too.

Two things first:

1) Kelly did not walk into a good situation with the QB's at Notre Dame.

2) Crist and Rees just might not be very talented quarterbacks

Now, certainly Kelly has made some mistakes with his handling of the quarterbacks, but in admitting as much, let's not forget point No. 1 above.

Also, Kelly has a solid history of developing quarterbacks and having strong offenses. Since in the grand scheme of things neither Crist or Rees have achieved anything at the college level, I don't know why they should get the benefit of the doubt in this discussion, why Kelly should not.

It's not as if Crist or Rees were great players before Kelly got here and they've since regressed. Recruiting rankings and all that taking into account, they were both incredibly unproven and neither a great fit for Kelly's offense.

Again, I think Kelly has made some mistakes with handling the QB's, but I don't think he's forgotten how to coach, or isn't coaching them up to their potential. I think a large part of it is that the two guys who have seen the most time on the field just aren't that good and Kelly hasn't had much else to turn to besides more inexperienced youngsters.

I mean, given Kelly's past are people really worried (long-term wise) that Kelly isn't going to eventually find the right quarterback at Notre Dame? I think it's a different discussion altogether if we're talking about the defense where there was much more skepticism with Kelly before he was hired. But it's the offense and quarterback, where we've also seen vastly improved offensive line play and improved running game to go with the frustration at QB.

So I think it's fine to question some of Kelly's decisions, but I don't think it's right to be flipping out that it's somehow being "proven" that Kelly is failing at Notre Dame---and that the QB situation and production is the main reason why he's failing.***

It's all the more likely that Crist & Rees just aren't that good, and when Kelly gets someone better in there, the team will really start to play much better.

***Not saying it's just you saying this, but others have been.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Here's my opinion.

I think that Kelly inherited a lot of problems at ND. Some of those problems are with depth, development..etc. But, I think most concerning of all, he inherited a lot of problems with the mentallity of the program. There is/was just something off about the way they play, especially in 2010. Watching other teams, even excluding the best teams like Alabama, they play like they have nothing to lose. They have a tenacity, and a confidence ND lacks. Now, that observation is changing, but its changing largely on the backs of the new players.

This team has made significant progress. Look at the defense. HIS fingerprint is the reason for the change. Freshmen came in, and took significant time from veterans. That tells me that Kelly is bringing in players that are not just talented, but hungry. It also says something about the veteran players who are getting pushed out of the way.

Kelly may have screwed the pooch on the QB situation. Or he may have done what he needed to do in order to just get by. Be critical of a coach when you have the facts, insinuating that Kelly is egotistical fanboy of Rees is absurd. Its an unsubstantiated ridiculous claim that is based of absolutely nothing. Why can't Hendrix game be flawed? Maybe he can't remember the plays? Maybe he had trouble in school? Maybe he was late to practice, and just didn't show an interest? Kelly's ego will be best satisfied by winning, not starting a QB just so he can be right.

The turnovers are a problem. And Kelly does deserve blame, but so do the players. This is where I'd look at the mental area of our team. There are people who can study for hours and hours for a exam while getting all the practice tests right, and fail the test. This happens, especially, when there is a lack of confidence, which I think ND has, namely a lot of the veteran players. Kelly needs to fix this problem, and fix it now. Luckily, a lot of these players are leaving.

Next year, I am looking forward to seeing a lot of hungry, and talented players taking the field for ND. We have a lot of questions, but a lot of those questions can be answered. I said this in another thread, we talk of the lack of playmakers on offense. I saw TJ wide open many times int he champs bowl, and all season, but Rees did not even glance their way. He locked into Eifert/Floyd. After a season of Rees doing that, I am sure that the other players starting thinking "why do I even bother, he doesnt look at me anyway". If the QB doesn't get them the ball, how can they make plays? Hopefully, we have a new QB who will spread the ball around. Also, with Floyd leaving, it will create a void that needs to be filled. Talented, and hungry players should be attacking the competition to fill that void.

I think we are going to be pleasently suprised by the new names emerging next season, and even more suprised by the potency of our offense as we will be spreading the ball all over the field, not just to two recievers.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

LOL, Kelly said we have a championship level defense?

Pretty darn close. 26th in scoring defense...ahead of TCU, Oklahoma, Texas, Nebraska, Arkansas, Missouri, Oregon, Iowa...

 

[NDinFL]

LOL, Kelly said we have a championship level defense?

What's so funny about this??

 

[Buster Bluth]

LOL, Kelly said we have a championship level defense?

Notre Dame did have a championship defense this season. Hell, they had a championship offensive line and backfield too. A good quarterback would have gone undefeated with this squad.

Also, as has been pointed out, the defense was 26th in scoring, and that's without many pansy teams a lot of those teams played.

The defense was legitimately good. People are taking too much out of a few big plays and forgetting that they were doing their jobs 95% of the time.

 

[SoCalDomer]

Be critical of a coach when you have the facts ...

Why can't Hendrix game be flawed? Maybe he can't remember the plays? Maybe he had trouble in school? Maybe he was late to practice, and just didn't show an interest?

That double standard is so thick a Ginsu could not cut through.

 

[DillonHall]

In college football, there's a huge gap between the top 3-4 and everyone else. I didn't realize 26th was considered elite...You guys want to see a championships level defense? Tune in next Monday. A championship level defense isn't just about numbers; it's about making a play when it matters most. I can't really say that ND's defense was there this season.