Jay Paterno on paying players

[Legacy]

Perhaps we can start at the beginning. Why do athletes get athletic scholarships? Why do football and basketball players get full scholarships and minor sports get partial scholarships? Why not base all scholarships on need and scholastic achievement only??

In that way, all students at a university are treated equally. To make sure that education is the priority, limit conference championship and bowl participation to those universities whose GSR is at least 69% (the NCAA FBS average).

The alternative is what we have now - football factories with players wanting to become semi-pro.

 

[kmoose]

Perhaps we can start at the beginning. Why do athletes get athletic scholarships? Why do football and basketball players get full scholarships and minor sports get partial scholarships? Why not base all scholarships on need and scholastic achievement only??

In that way, all students at a university are treated equally. To make sure that education is the priority, limit conference championship and bowl participation to those universities whose GSR is at least 69% (the NCAA FBS average).

The alternative is what we have now - football factories with players wanting to become semi-pro.

I'm not opposed to that, but I think you will hear many people complain that that model changes the way the game is played, on the field.

 

[laservet]

When I was playing, I once calculated that between class, studying, practice, meals (when you are an athlete, meals are not recreational, they serve a definite purpose) and other preparations in both school and sport, my average "work" day was easily 12 hours long and I regularly had 6 or 7 day work weeks. Even if you only calculate that out to the six months or so the athlete is participating competitively in their sport, your $45,575 annual income only comes out to roughly $26 an hour.

Not sure I'd count eating huge free meals as work for which one should be financially compensated, but that's just me.

Paying players wouldn't solve a thing. Look at the players in trouble at OSU right now, they claimed they knowingly broke the rules because their families were so poor. Yet, when they sold university property and their own property what did they do with the money? Bought tats, drugs, sporty cars.

There's an article (I'll look for it) about this that has some good quotes from Russell Shepard, kid has his head on straight. His girlfriend is also an LSU student and he said watching the severe strain paying tuition, board, books, etc. , put on her family made him grateful for the sweet deal of an athletic scholarship.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Not sure I'd count eating huge free meals as work for which one should be financially compensated, but that's just me.

Paying players wouldn't solve a thing. Look at the players in trouble at OSU right now, they claimed they knowingly broke the rules because their families were so poor. Yet, when they sold university property and their own property what did they do with the money? Bought tats, drugs, sporty cars.

There's an article (I'll look for it) about this that has some good quotes from Russell Shepard, kid has his head on straight. His girlfriend is also an LSU student and he said watching the severe strain paying tuition, board, books, etc. , put on her family made him grateful for the sweet deal of an athletic scholarship.

I never said paying players was the answer. I am not on that side of the argument. However, if you have ever eaten at a training table, you would know it is not of your own free choice and it very much IS part of your job description.

My whole point all along has been unless you have played major college athletics (and there are only a few posters on this board that I know actually have) you can't imagine the physical and emotional toll it takes to do it day in and day out while still keeping your studies and your personal life under control. I played D-1 basketball and it was incredibly difficult. There were times where I just didn't think I could go on. I was a no-name player at mid-major school. I can't fathom having to also cope with the "celebrity" these top tier players have at the major programs. Adding that burden to sports and academics is difficult to comprehend.

We tend to look at some of the incredible athletic specimens at Notre Dame and then see them do well in the classroom too (i.e. Chris Stewart, et al) and we take it for granted because they kind of make it look easy from our point of view. We tend to look at them and say, "well, why can't other players at other schools do that too?" "They should be grateful for the education that is being provided for them free of charge." Well, it isn't that cut and dry especially for some athletes that have not had the academic drive instilled in them at a young age. As fans, we get to see the "glory" moments.

I am not saying paying them is the answer, but it does at least warrant a discussion. And unless you have been in those shoes of playing major college athletics (and I'm NOT assuming you haven't), it is hard to really grasp what goes on every day in their lives.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's one thing to argue that being a Division I athlete is a lot harder than most people think. I'd wholeheartedly agree with that.

It's another to argue that Division I athletes are getting exploited, or that a free ride at college is somehow a raw deal. This is the point you seemed to be making earlier, and I don't agree with it.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

It's one thing to argue that being a Division I athlete is a lot harder than most people think. I'd wholeheartedly agree with that.

It's another to argue that Division I athletes are getting exploited, or that a free ride at college is somehow a raw deal. This is the point you seemed to be making earlier, and I don't agree with it.

Show me where I said they were being exploited or they were getting a raw deal. If that was what you understood, then I apologize for not communicating more effectively.

 

[irishpat183]

I never said paying players was the answer. I am not on that side of the argument. However, if you have ever eaten at a training table, you would know it is not of your own free choice and it very much IS part of your job description.

My whole point all along has been unless you have played major college athletics (and there are only a few posters on this board that I know actually have) you can't imagine the physical and emotional toll it takes to do it day in and day out while still keeping your studies and your personal life under control. I played D-1 basketball and it was incredibly difficult. There were times where I just didn't think I could go on. I was a no-name player at mid-major school. I can't fathom having to also cope with the "celebrity" these top tier players have at the major programs. Adding that burden to sports and academics is difficult to comprehend.

We tend to look at some of the incredible athletic specimens at Notre Dame and then see them do well in the classroom too (i.e. Chris Stewart, et al) and we take it for granted because they kind of make it look easy from our point of view. We tend to look at them and say, "well, why can't other players at other schools do that too?" "They should be grateful for the education that is being provided for them free of charge." Well, it isn't that cut and dry especially for some athletes that have not had the academic drive instilled in them at a young age. As fans, we get to see the "glory" moments.

I am not saying paying them is the answer, but it does at least warrant a discussion. And unless you have been in those shoes of playing major college athletics (and I'm NOT assuming you haven't), it is hard to really grasp what goes on every day in their lives.

For the record...I understand where you're coming from, I just disagree. I'm a very "to the point" kinda person so sorry if I offend you.

I played at a 1-AA school and I have to say that while difficult..It's called growing up and maturing. Time management. Being disciplined. It's also the best decision I ever made in my life. So to me, it's just an excuse to say "it's hard". Life is hard.

They ABSOLUTELY should be grateful for the education they receive. It is that "cut and dry". And if a free education and playing major college football at a place like Notre Dame(just an example) doesn't get some "academic drive" in your a$$, then I'm not sure you DESERVE the opportunity.

Again, college football isn't a job. It's an audition for a job if you're looking at it the right way. Just like college in general. What's lost here is the value of the education...plain and simple.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

For the record...I understand where you're coming from, I just disagree. I'm a very "to the point" kinda person so sorry if I offend you.

I played at a 1-AA school and I have to say that while difficult..It's called growing up and maturing. Time management. Being disciplined. It's also the best decision I ever made in my life. So to me, it's just an excuse to say "it's hard". Life is hard.

They ABSOLUTELY should be grateful for the education they receive. It is that "cut and dry". And if a free education and playing major college football at a place like Notre Dame(just an example) doesn't get some "academic drive" in your a$$, then I'm not sure you DESERVE the opportunity.

Again, college football isn't a job. It's an audition for a job if you're looking at it the right way. Just like college in general. What's lost here is the value of the education...plain and simple.

You don't offend me, first of all, and I am a very to the point person as well. However, it is very difficult when people try to impose their values and morals on a set of people they do not know or have anything in common. You have no idea what my experience was like and I have no idea what yours was like either. If I were to tell you that you should feel a certain way or do certain things is not my place because I have no way of knowing what makes you, well...you.

I absolutely feel that my time was well worth all the hardship. And, yes, it is about maturing and learning time management. However, to say that all athletes should feel that way is reaching a bit and is really trying to impose our beliefs on a wide segment of the population. Many of these young men are not coming in to most collegiate situations well equipped to deal with some of the things that are thrown at them. How can I say they "should" do a certain thing, when I have no idea if they are even capable to do so?

I never said paying players is a good idea or would solve anything. I just don't like complete blanket statements that they should be happy with what they get and make the most out of every moment on the field and in the classroom with a smile on their face. Especially when those statements often come from people that have never participated in college athletics.

My values and views on life cannot be copied and pasted to another person with a completely different upbringing and belief system.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Show me where I said they were being exploited or they were getting a raw deal. If that was what you understood, then I apologize for not communicating more effectively.

Back on page 2, I broke down the value of an athletic scholarship at ND, compared it to what the average minor league baseball player makes, and concluded that our student athletes were very well compensated.

You responded by pointing out how many hours a day most student athletes have to put in, and that if you break it down into an hourly rate, our student athletes probably aren't getting a good deal (which I rebutted with evidence that minor league players receive terrible compensation). That's what I took as support for the exploitation argument; if student athletes are being asked to do too much, and are getting too little in return, then yes, they're getting exploited. I apologize if I misconstrued your argument, but that's what I was disagreeing with.

I don't think it makes sense to calculate time spent in class as "work hours" for a student athlete. Since they're getting a free ride, those classes are technically their compensation; when you look at how much non-athletes are spending on those classes, and the 30-year ROI of the average ND degree, it makes perfect sense.

Yes, student athletes have to go to class to remain eligible, but that's part of the student-athlete ideal that the NCAA is trying to encourage (or more accurately, keep alive). If you consider Division I athletes as students first, then the system isn't broken, and the cheaters just need to be punished. But if you consider Division I athletics to be primarily a minor league system for the NFL and NBA, then most of the NCAA rules seem pointless and outdated.

This is the problem with the SEC and most of the football factories. The student athlete ideal is a quaint notion to which they have to pay lipservice because of the NCAA rules, but at the end of the day, they run their programs like NFL teams-- underperformers are pushed out (oversigning), class attendance is a technicality to be gamed (graduation rates), and integrity is ignored as long as one is winning (Bush, Pryor, etc.)

Virtually every problem in college football and basketball can be traced back to a lack of commitment to the student athlete ideal.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Back on page 2, I broke down the value of an athletic scholarship at ND, compared it to what the average minor league baseball player makes, and concluded that our student athletes were very well compensated.

You responded by pointing out how many hours a day most student athletes have to put in, and that if you break it down into an hourly rate, our student athletes probably aren't getting a good deal (which I rebutted with evidence that minor league players receive terrible compensation). That's what I took as support for the exploitation argument; if student athletes are being asked to do too much, and are getting too little in return, then yes, they're getting exploited. I apologize if I misconstrued your argument, but that's what I was disagreeing with.

I don't think it makes sense to calculate time spent in class as "work hours" for a student athlete. Since they're getting a free ride, those classes are technically their compensation; when you look at how much non-athletes are spending on those classes, and the 30-year ROI of the average ND degree, it makes perfect sense.

Yes, student athletes have to go to class to remain eligible, but that's part of the student-athlete ideal that the NCAA is trying to encourage (or more accurately, keep alive). If you consider Division I athletes as students first, then the system isn't broken, and the cheaters just need to be punished. But if you consider Division I athletics to be primarily a minor league system for the NFL and NBA, then most of the NCAA rules seem pointless and outdated.
This is the problem with the SEC and most of the football factories. The student athlete ideal is a quaint notion to which they have to pay lipservice because of the NCAA rules, but at the end of the day, they run their programs like NFL teams-- underperformers are pushed out (oversigning), class attendance is a technicality to be gamed (graduation rates), and integrity is ignored as long as one is winning (Bush, Pryor, etc.)

Virtually every problem in college football and basketball can be traced back to a lack of commitment to the student athlete ideal.

This last point couldn't be more spot-on. I totally agree. I think the student athlete ideal at many schools is a quaint notion, but it has been for quite some time. But I believe you can take it a step further and the reform needs to take place at the high school level. Many of these athletes are coming in at a deficit to compete in the class room at a state school, let alone at the Notre Dames and Stanfords of the world.

I could have taken a much easier road through high school. Did I do as well as I could have? Absolutely not. I was too interested in girls and going to the beach, but I did much better than I really needed to do. Until the blue chip athletes are held to a higher standard in high school, I don't expect the collegiate situation in the SEC, or any other region for that matter, to change.

You and I have a different view on the nuts and bolts of being a student/athlete and what constitutes part of the "job description", but we are two heads of the same coin on this one, I believe.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Until the blue chip athletes are held to a higher standard in high school, I don't expect the collegiate situation in the SEC, or any other region for that matter, to change.

I agree that it has to start in high school. As long as football factories are allowed to recruit talented but borderline illiterate athletes, it will remain difficult to genuinely hold schools accountable to the student athlete ideal.

Could the NCAA just raise the academic requirements for getting an athletic scholarship? Obviously not to Notre Dame standards, but high enough to force high school athletes to care about their grades. Doing so would probably make it easier to enact further changes with the aim of encouraging genuine scholarship among Division I athletes.

You and I have a different view on the nuts and bolts of being a student/athlete and what constitutes part of the "job description", but we are two heads of the same coin on this one, I believe.

I agree with your point that being a student athlete is a huge time commitment and can be very stressful. But when we start looking at what they're actually getting compensated for, I don't think we can include school work. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Wow. I am super-happy ignored this thread up until two minutes ago. I'd have spent the last few days rolling around in the mud with you guys.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Could the NCAA just raise the academic requirements for getting an athletic scholarship? Obviously not to Notre Dame standards, but high enough to force high school athletes to care about their grades. Doing so would probably make it easier to enact further changes with the aim of encouraging genuine scholarship among Division I athletes.



I agree with your point that being a student athlete is a huge time commitment and can be very stressful. But when we start looking at what they're actually getting compensated for, I don't think we can include school work. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

In terms of your first question, yes the NCAA could raise the academic requirements, but I think you would have a lot of groups up in arms and saying it is racist or something along those lines. I think the ACLU would come out and say that you would be depriving an entire generation a chance at a college education by raising the standards. I think it is terrible that the tendency is to bring things down to a certain level so that a particular group can compete rather than get that same group to strive to achieve more.

As for the question of the schoolwork, I guess it is a matter of debate. In order to stay eligible, the athlete must meet certain standards every semester or it affects their playing status. This puts a much heavier burden on the student athlete to do well in school than on the "regular/paying" student. If a regular student falls below a certain level in a particular semester, it isn't as big of an issue because they go on academic probation and pull up the grade next semester without much loss of any priviledges or activities. Athletes don't have that luxury. One semester and you are done for a long while and possibly doing permanent damage to your status on the depth chart.

Regular students can blow off a test or take an incomplete for the semester. Maybe Mom and Dad won't be happy, but that is usually about as far as it goes. Take the class again - problem is forgotten. I doubt the manager at the Steak and Shake where the student works will get too upset if the student fails his philosophy midterm. However, the head coach will most certainly have a problem with their star linebacker failing a test. That is why I call schoolwork part of the athlete's job description. There is just a lot more at stake and a smaller margin for error for the athelete, in my opinion.

It was especially hard as a basketball player because the season overlapped both semesters. In football, at least, they can better afford to be academically ineligible for the spring and still be back for summer practice.