SBNation 2011 Season Preview: Notre Dame

[Rocket89]

Oh, allow me.

First of all, a couple days ago you were saying we'd lose the first three games (talk about fear mongering!) if Crist starts the season. Now it's only one of the first three?

Why the back peddaling?

As far as Rees' accomplishments, they are certainly terrific in their own right, but let's not blow something like 12 TD's (especially when at least 8 or 9 of them were extremely short passes near the goal line) out of proportion. After all, Duval Kamara broke some freshman receiving records and his career didn't exactly pan out, did it?

As for the completion percentage record: Rees threw almost predominantly short passes in a spread offense which Notre Dame has never run before. If 5 more freshman are to play the same amount of minutes in Kelly's offense at Notre Dame...that record would be broken two or three times.

As for the touchdowns: This just goes to show how few true freshman have played quarterback at ND. It's not like Rees is up against a bunch of Irish immortals with that record, especially considering again, freshman almost never play at ND until recent times, and ND was never a pass happy offense (for modern standards) until Weis showed up.

Anyone who is being truthful knows Rees' records really aren't that big of a deal. If we're going to talk about his accomplishments to date, I wouldn't really rely on those. Quinn was playing in one of the worst Irish offenses ever as a freshman, with little to no help. Clausen, ditto. Do we really have to compare Rees to those years? Kelly's offense has proven to show that damn near anybody is going to put up decent/good numbers as his QB. No one ever says that about a Willingham offense, or the '07 season when Clausen was running for his life.

Now, as to Rees' performance overall and some of the things he achieved last year: It was very impressive for a true freshman. I don't think anyone on here isn't giving Rees is due credit for beating a ranked team, beating USC, etc.

However, you have to caveat those accomplishments with what we saw on the field. You just have to.

Did Rees ever take over a game? Did he ever wow you with any of his play for a prolonged period of time?

We can keep saying he was just a freshman, and that's true to a point, but you can't keep hyping up his records and accomplishments, and then not speak to his poor play and negatives as a prospect.

As for Crist, you ask what single accomplishment he has achieved?

You act like he's played a ton in South Bend or something. He's started 8 games in his career and played about 6 full games last year. He still has two full years left and has barely scratched the surface with the amount of time he can spend leading the Irish.

As it is, how you (and many) forget that Crist was ON PACE TO BREAK NUMEROUS TEAM RECORDS FOR A FIRST YEAR STARTING QUARTERBACK.

Sure we can knock Crist for getting injured again (or being injury prone), but the fact is if he stays healthy is shatters some records. Like Rees, he had the benefit of playing in a pass-happy offense with good skill players, but a record like that is much more impressive.

As to the future, you're betting that Rees starts the season? It's not completely out of the question, but you continue to ignore that literally every single person who has been around the program since spring has mentioned how much better Crist has looked than the others. There were numerous times media members were saying without question that Crist looked like the clear No. 1 guy. Any time the coaches talked about the QB's, they talked about Crist, and sometimes didn't even bring Rees up. As others have noted, Kelly said Rees was in danger of falling out of the comptetion late in the spring, but finished strong. As long as Crist stays healthy, Rees will not beat him out to start the season.

As far as being prospects: Rees has 3 years left, Crist has two. Sure Dayne has been on campus much longer, but in terms of playing time and time left, they are practically on equal footing right now. Including time in the system under Kelly.

I might be more apt to support Rees if Crist only had one year left, or if Rees had the type of game that will allow him to grow and get significantly better, but I do not believe this to be the case.

Fact 1: Rees is slow, immobile (in terms of the spread option read), and this is never changing. We "got away" with this late last season, but don't expect ND to reach its full potential against BCS elite teams with this anchor on our QB. While, this isn't the be-all-end-all, but it's hard to believe Rees is going to be a starter this year, or especially in the long term, with this hinderance.

Fact 2-He has a relative weak arm. To me, not a huge problem, but it does limit the offense.

Now the question becomes, does Rees' other positives cancel out his negatives?

It's like having a running back who doesn't block very well, and can't catch the ball out of the backfield. Can he make up for that and just be a dominating runner to the level where he's starting at Notre Dame?

Is Rees really super accurate, super smart, and such an amazing pocket passer?

Because if we're honest with ourselves, if he's starting at QB, he's going to have to take a huge leap forward as a passer. Can he? Maybe...but with his skills limiting the offense, 61% completion percentage and the heavy amount of interceptions are not good enough. I've said it before, if Rees is starting at QB and leading this team to wins, he's going to have to be around 70% and taking care of the ball as good as any QB in the nation.

I think some people believe we don't need a great QB to have a great team. Yeah it's possible, but I don't think that's happening at ND anytime soon, and it's really just a back handed slap at Rees to think that way anyway. Why have a QB who's limiting your offense?

Like I said, maybe Rees improves, but his weak arm and lack of running ability are big, big issues that can't be solved. In my opinion, it's just a huge leap of faith to believe that Rees will drastically improve to the point where the coaches forgive his issues and keep him starting ahead of the other guys.

Now Crist, he's bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, is a better leader, still has a boat load of potential, and plenty of room for growth.

I by no means am completely sold that Crist is our savior of "the guy." His injuries are definitely a big concern.

However, I watched a kid start in his first career game last year against Purdue and run the offense damn well.

I saw a quarterback make a lot of tough throws, even if he did struggle with accuracy and consistency.

I saw a player catch fire multiple times and look like one of the best quarterbacks in the country.

I saw a quarterback PUT THE TEAM ON HIS BACK and carry the offense at times.

I saw a player getting used to a new system, struggling at times, but showing glimpses of how great he can be.

If he can stay healthy, and it is admittedly a big if, Crist will take a big stride and be much better in 2011. Maybe he's never an all-time great, but he still has the potential to be a top-20 QB in the nation, and I won't be surprised if he's in that group this upcoming season.

 

[alohagoirish]

First you misread the post which is in this thread--if crsit starts we WILL lose one of the first three--i never said all three---if Rees starts i see absolutely no reason not to expect the same results from the end of the year--consistent wins!

So there is NO back peddling.

And i do not believe by simply listing the impressive group of accomplishments Rees achieved in only starting 4 games, that is BLOWING THEM out of proportoin. It is what it is, Rees overachieved WILDLY and any fair person on this board knows he was giving up the season after Navy and somehow that all chamged and in the process Rees a TRUE FROSH starting only 4 games accomplished alot to write home about! Some choose to give credit to everyone but Rees , that IMO is the unfair assessment.

Rees 's records are as you say " not a big deal "---but i think the team & the coaches and many of the fans think it was a very big deal , since many thought we would lose everygame including army after crist went down.---Maybe it isn't a big deal , but it is a strong indicator that with another year under his belt there is no reason to expect less from rees and plenty reason to expect more.

If its true that REES did not wow me with his play--it is also true that dayne often left me scratching my head as to what he was doing. Tommy was very quick with the ball dayne took alot of sacks, I like the quick release and decision making alot. And 12 Td passes in your first few games is a big tell that 30 or more could come easily in a full season.

And i do not DENY that there has been alot of talk about Crist looking better by media---but then they do not see much---The B&G game showed us the same dayne and it wasnt' very encouraging. I also FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that the majority view is that dayne will and should start---I choose to disagree on both counts, i believe the guy on the win streak NEEDS to continue that--ABSOLUTELY!---And i also think & hope when push comes to shove Rees will get the nod.

I also freely face the obvious that Rees is not mobile---Everett golson is the QB of the future of that i have little doubt---BUT i think Rees's lack of mobility at least as he compares to CRIST has several mitigating factors.

First Rees has the quick release and reads the spread better then dayne---he takes less sacks because of that and that keeps drives and time of possession going.--- Second Crist can hardly run at all, and its foolish to think he can be utilized in that fashion. Two of his three best runs of the season, one for a TD, the one against MIchigan that he had his bell run and cost us that game ( through no fault of his but nonetheless) and the long run against tulsa where a hit in the head & shoulder area blows out his second knee.

Dayne can't help it , but he is an accident waiting to happen and expecting his running & mobility to be what seperates him from REES just does not make sense.

If arm strength was the key then hendricks would be starting--- Rees has been throwing stonger and will continue to do so as he matures--Dayne throws hard but often throws it in a terribly inaccurate fashion.

If you know where to go and you get it in there with accuracy and velocity you can succeed big time in college football--- everyone does not need to be payton manning to win!

I love evertt golson and expect him to be the best answer for the irish, i fully expect kelly will not redshirt him and get him his package from year one.

But the choice as it stands is dayne or tommy!

Big, strong, Inaccurate, with sketchy pocket presence and a tendency to go to sleep for several 3 and outs.

Tommy immoble yes, but accurate with a very quick release a good sense of the offense a cool leadership demeanor, difficult to sack with good pocket presence, and a strong repoire with both Eifert & Floyd ,a guy who as KELLY SAYS __" JUST WINS"!

Its an easy call for me DESPITE the MEDIA CORONATION---If the job was daynes we would KNOW IT!---This is not settled and won't be for the opening game until august 15th.
If dayne wins the job, either through injury or poor play i expect the staff will turn to Rees again before the season goes too deep.

I wish i could be as confident in dayne as most of you seem to be--i am not---in fact i will be holding my breath for the first couple games if dayne is the choice. He simply did not inspire the confidence that he can win every game. Rees , well i'm just a sucker for winning, tommy gave me some of the best wins all freakin decade, he did it without getting slap happy when things went tough, he elevated my confidence in the whole team, and pretty much led beatings of three of the last 4 teams.

I guess i just want to keep winning, that can't be hard to understand.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't have much to add to Rocket89's masterful post above, but aloha's stubborn insistence on Rees > Crist seems to be stemming from two misconceptions.

One guy is 16 -2 the other is 8-9---and on top of that the 16-2 pitcher faced the tougher competition----

Rees did not face "tougher competition". The only aspect of the opposing teams that matters when comparing QBs is their defense, and that's what the APPG statistic we all keep quoting accounts for. ND's offensive production was very similar under Crist and Rees, but Crist ends up with +3.6 Adjusted Points Per Game over Rees because he faced tougher defenses.

The strength of our running game and our dominant defense undoubtedly inflated Rees statistics as well; I don't see how you can dispute that. Any QB will perform better with a stronger rushing attack, a more balanced pass/rush split, and a dominant defense that is giving you good field position and tiring out the opposing defense by forcing them onto the field frequently.

So it's fair to assume that Crist's +3.6 APPG advantage over Rees would be even larger if he enjoyed the rushing and defensive production from after his injury.

You also seem to put great stock in the fact that Crist was a junior in 2010. Do you think it's reasonable to expect a guy who red-shirted in 2008 and played only a few snaps in 2009 to suddenly be a veteran in 2011, as a first time starter in new system? That's ridiculous. As Rocket89 pointed out, Crist and Rees were essentially starting out on equal footing in 2010; in fact, you could make a case that Crist was at a disadvantage having to unlearn Weis' pro-style system, while Rees was a blank slate for Kelly to mold.

I don't understand how you can so casually dismiss the objective statistical evidence presented in the SBNation article that Crist was the better QB in 2010; if you're a football guru and have some devastating insight as to why you're correct and all the experts are wrong, please share it. But thus far, you've provided nothing but shallow gut-feeling arguments while pointedly ignoring the statistical evidence. The number don't lie.

 

[alohagoirish]

Winning is NOT some shallow gut feeling . I would argue that Tommy Rees had alot to do with the improvment of both the running game and the defense. Rees was almost 70% on first down , that set up the running attack in just excellent fashion, the fact that Rees did not take sacks like crist and did not KILL DRIVES by streaky inaccuracy and sacks , kept the drives going longer , the field position better , down & distance better , and kept the defense better rested.

It defies all logic that the same defense, the same rushing attack , all of a suuden went through a metamorphises when tommy rees came in , but of course it had nothing to do with the play of rees or the leadership of rees or the playcalling for rees. Apparently it had something to do with a chamge in diet or some unkown therapy that coincedentally occurred when REES ARRIVED.

Torturing statistics to try and negate what is obvious---Better play by tommy rees in leading the team on a 4 game win streak in order to build an absurd case that Dayne who was floudering so often had the better year. Do i believe my eyes or the sketchy interprtation of what was fairly even stats. WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING FELLA'S ITS THE ONLY THING. Dayne is a huge risk and i hope time does not prove my point too convincingly.

Rees gets no points for doing all he did as a frosh--without allen--without rudolph--without riddeck--thats the 3 key offensive starters that crist had--and without the advantage of a spring & fall and two months of first team reps and full coaching attention. Yet somehow all of crists mistakes are forgiven because he was just starting out in a new system. That is about as skewed a view as you can get.

Crist is a big risk if your looking for consistent wins and not hard throws--don't be shocked to see tommy rees against USF!

 

[BeauBenken]

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[Whiskeyjack]

Winning is NOT some shallow gut feeling.

It's not much more meaningful than a gut-feeling when you're using it as the be-all end-all of QB evaluation. The QB is one of 22 starters, and (gasp) the other 40 or so guys who see significant minutes in any given game have a lot to do with whether you win or lose. You're making the same mistake most noob football fans do; if your team loses, the QB gets all the blame, and if they win, he's a hero. It's simplistic and completely wrong-headed.

I would argue that Tommy Rees had alot to do with the improvment of both the running game and the defense. Rees was almost 70% on first down, that set up the running attack in just excellent fashion, the fact that Rees did not take sacks like crist and did not KILL DRIVES by streaky inaccuracy and sacks , kept the drives going longer , the field position better , down & distance better , and kept the defense better rested.

How often did Kelly call a pass on 1st down with Rees? Because that 70% on 1st down figure is meaningless out of context. How many fewer sacks did Rees have over Crist? Could an improved O-line have anything to do with that and, (gasp) the improved running attack as well? Rees' completion % was virtually identical to Crist's, and he turned the ball over far more often. I could go on.

If you want to make your point, you need to bring some numbers. You seem allergic to statistics; the info's out there. If you're right, it will be easy to prove your point.

It defies all logic that the same defense, the same rushing attack , all of a suuden went through a metamorphises when tommy rees came in , but of course it had nothing to do with the play of rees or the leadership of rees or the playcalling for rees. Apparently it had something to do with a chamge in diet or some unkown therapy that coincedentally occurred when REES ARRIVED.

Claiming any QB boosted the performance of his RBs and defense is patently ridiculous, but that's the nub of your argument: Rees' makes the whole team play better!1one He's magical.

Torturing statistics to try and negate what is obvious---Better play by tommy rees in leading the team on a 4 game win streak in order to build an absurd case that Dayne who was floudering so often had the better year. Do i believe my eyes or the sketchy interprtation of what was fairly even stats. WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING FELLA'S ITS THE ONLY THING. Dayne is a huge risk and i hope time does not prove my point too convincingly.

No torturing necessary. Crist's numbers are obviously and objectively better than Rees'. The only tortured argument in this thread is your attempt to prove (without statistics, mind you) that Rees magically made the entire team better.

Rees gets no points for doing all he did as a frosh--without allen--without rudolph--without riddeck--thats the 3 key offensive starters that crist had--and without the advantage of a spring & fall and two months of first team reps and full coaching attention. Yet somehow all of crists mistakes are forgiven because he was just starting out in a new system. That is about as skewed a view as you can get.

You seem hung up on this "credit" thing. We're talking about which QB performed best last season; there are all sorts of advanced statistics that allow us to analyze these comparisons objectively, but you're not interested in objective facts.

Crist is a big risk if your looking for consistent wins and not hard throws--don't be shocked to see tommy rees against USF!

I'll still bet you all your vBucks that Crist starts.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Wow Aloha. It's one thing to make your argument for your boy. But to completely ignore everyone else's arguments? Bad form!

I'll say this. Dayne has to prove it this year, no doubt. He has to stay healthy, and he has to show us that he reign in that cannon of his to consistently hit his receivers.

But aloha, you completely ignore what Dayne did MUCH better than Rees, and the obstacles he had to overcome that Rees didn't. First of, Crist can run. Not great, mind you, but MUCH better than Rees. I mean, it's not even close. Look at the numbers. He has to stay healthy mind you, but still, not even close. Also, Crist can power the ball down the field, while Rees can't.

What was the one defense that said eff it, we're going to crowd the line of scrimmage and force him Rees throw over the top? USC. And how did that work out? 3 INTs and a bad fumble. We should have lost that game (thank you Floyd, Hughes, Cierre and Rojo!), but the defense saved us. You can look up my post history - I said that once a team crowded the LOS we were done.

And how can you ignore the UM and MSU games? With Crist vs. UM, we won that game GOING AWAY. NO Crist for almost a half, and we lose. And vs. MSU, holy hell, Crist was a BEAST!!! Do you forget that game??? Well, look at the stats then. Now, imagine Crist vs. MSU, but with the running game and the defense we saw vs. USC and Miami. Answer honestly - how much do we win that game by? 50?

Look, I love what Rees did for us, and I'll be happy with him as a starter. BUt the way you diminish what Crist did and completely ignore the running game and defense that ND played for Rees, is insane and even juvenile. I don't blame amgarvey for quitting this debate because you're being irrational. I can see why people want Rees to start. But I can't see how you can bash Crist while ignoring so many things staring you right in the face...

 

[alohagoirish]

You act as if its totally obvious that dayne had a better year, i simply ask what freakin season were you watching !!

You can make statistics tweak how you want to when they are in REALITY so close.

Dayne QB rating--129.3---Tommy 132.0

Oh but we don't like that stat

Completion rating--Dayne 59.2 Tommy 61

Oh but we don't like that stat either

Touchdowns Dayne--15 Tommy 12--( this is perhaps the best stat for QBs for my money ) and even under a tight leash Rees was throwing TDs at a much brisker pace then dayne.
This from a frosh thrown into the fire mid stream, and forced to play at some tough venues.

Oh but we don't like that stat either --we like the stats that show so OBVIOUSLY how dayne played better---I mean COME'ON!

Dayne was 4-4 Tommy was 4-1

Oh that stat is meaningless WE ALL KNOW WINS & LOSSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QB !!??!!

Dayne's best game was against western michigan in an outmanned meaningless contest-
Tommy's best game was againts the MIAMI HURRICANES IN ONLY OUR SECOND BOWL THIS CENTURY!

Oh but that doesn't mean anything.

ANYTHING TOMMY CAN DO DAYNE CAN DO BETTER---its on its face RIDICULOUS!

Dayne took sacks at a much higher rate then Tommy !

Oh that doesn't mean anything because Dayne is MOBILE

Tommy through more picks then dayne as well as more TDS

Finally a stat for Dayne---but of all the stats you look at for a freshman QB--Picks is perhaps the most forgivable , and the one that improves the most from frosh to soph & beyond---true for quinn--true for clausen--true for Rees

The stats are very close---if someone wants to tweak them in order to give a SLIGHT EDGE TO CRIST FOR TOTAL OFFENSE---AN EDGE THAT IS NOT there for any of the standard statictics used by virtually everyone in evaluating QBs--TDs--completions--yards--sacks--picks--QB rating----In all of those KEY STATS tommy wins 4 dayne 2--but if one wants to prove crist was an IOTA BETTER by my esoteric formula---FINE

That slight edge is completely overwhelmed by the fact that THREE OF OUR BIGGEST WINS THIS DECADE----came after a 500 team switched QBs from crist to rees---

That stat is BIG--Its the one that makes this choice so difficult for the staff----Anyone who thinks Rees has hit his ceiling in 4 games is just being ABSURD!---but it may very well be true that Crist has either Physically or technically developed some very bad weaknesses that may not be fixable.

Crist may start but likely again Rees will finish !

 

[Cali_domer]

Just to make it interesting I want Luke Massa to start.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I wonder how much play calling had to do with Rees's success. I mentioned during game day threads that it seemed Kelly had simplified the offense once Crist went down. Just a thought.

 

[NDinL.A.]

You act as if its totally obvious that dayne had a better year, i simply ask what freakin season were you watching !!

Serious question...how old are you? I say 17 at the most. Full disclosure, I'm about to turn 37.

Anyway, like I knew you would, you completely ignored every argument I made and regurgitated the same tired-a*s argument you've been making. You sound like a USC fan dude. You want to continue this debate, then read my post again (or the many other posts you ignored), and then debate those points. If you can't do that, well, to be completely blunt and honest, you'll continue to look like a screaming fool who no one will take seriously.

So, take 2:

 

[alohagoirish]

Playcalling was helpful for Rees as well as an overall more disciplined offensive apporach. Of course the QB still has to execute for any offense to go, especially one like ours where our running attck simply is not a powerhouse but stiticticall average to below average.

We ran a little more--we ran a little better. alot of that came from a 40 for 60 on 1st downs by Rees. That was just what you want to push the ball down the field. Tommy was also very good, better then dayne, on 3rd and long as well, scout just ran a nice piece on that--crist was better on 3rd and short--Rees better on 3rd and long--it seems counterintutive but its the stat.

All in all i liked the way the team ran during its win streak and would be pleased as punch to see us continue with a balanced attack , some time of possession , some drives, and let the defense dominate. Its a winning formula, that Dayne may simply be too inconsistent to make happen---with dayne and his big arm then tendency is to want bigger plays rather then longer drives. Its a choice. I prefer the proven winner of a system!

 

[NDinL.A.]

Playcalling was helpful for Rees as well as an overall more disciplined offensive apporach. Of course the QB still has to execute for any offense to go, especially one like ours where our running attck simply is not a powerhouse but stiticticall average to below average.

We ran a little more--we ran a little better. alot of that came from a 40 for 60 on 1st downs by Rees. That was just what you want to push the ball down the field. Tommy was also very good, better then dayne, on 3rd and long as well, scout just ran a nice piece on that--crist was better on 3rd and short--Rees better on 3rd and long--it seems counterintutive but its the stat.

All in all i liked the way the team ran during its win streak and would be pleased as punch to see us continue with a balanced attack , some time of possession , some drives, and let the defense dominate. Its a winning formula, that Dayne may simply be too inconsistent to make happen---with dayne and his big arm then tendency is to want bigger plays rather then longer drives. Its a choice. I prefer the proven winner of a system!

That's a much more rational argument. However, you still ignored several points. I'm going to bed, but I'll leave you with this, once again: Explain the USC game (as well as everything I said in my earlier post about it).

 

[alohagoirish]

ND in LA from my persective it seems like you are the one ignoring every statistic that favors Rees . Which by the way are all the major ones. But let me address your points.

1st) Crist can run-- this is just painful to deal with. but if you think the staff was reluctant to run Crist last year after one injury expecting them to be more aggressive after two knees is just whistling in the wind. Dayne may be a better runner and Rees in Cement but that is totally cancelled out as a Crist advatage because he is simply a GLASS QB. Dayne spent his senior year in the hospital with serious neck injury and concussion. Dayne then saw action as a sophomore and promptly blew out his knee. Then in one of his best runs last year he comes up with double vision, and costs us that game because even though he played well we were too far behind by the time he got back. Then on his longest run of the season he blows out the other knee from a blow to the head & shoulder area. Dayne's ability to be a running QB has been neutered by no fault of his own but nonetheless its foolish to expect much from dayne running the ball. Thats why the plan is a TWO QB SYSTEM__NEITHER REES OR CRIST CAN RUN!

2nd) Dayne can power the ball down field. --Rees laid out some beautiful passes to kamara and eifert go back and look at the tape--dropped right in the bucket over the top!
The two have similar stats on yards per completion. If dayne can throw harder and power the ball the downside of that is he powers the ball out of the endzone or out of the field of play all too often. Rees has touch and timing Crist has the powerball. i see no real advatage their either.

3rd) You point to the USC game-- well thats a two edged sword---Rees dominated the second quarter with two TD passes and keeping the ball almost the entire quarter--that hot streak along with the final drive was enough to get the job done and DELIVER ONE OF OUR BIGGEST WINS!---Yes Rees had a tough day--what does that mean though---rees a true frosh had trouble in parts of that game--playing against a monte kiiffen defense--playing in the rain--playing in a hostile tough venue--yet he still did enough to win. LET ME POINT OUT DAYNE HAD SOME BAD GAMES TOO---Dayne stunk it up against navy--against a small defense many other teams rolled up points on--he threw two picks- he got sacked--he couldnt get any momentum--he basically sucked at a time when the defense needed some points. Dayne played lousy and we LOST TO FREAKIN NAVY! Everyone knows you don't get many possessions against navy and Crist flopped there. So forget about proving something with the USC victory that is different in kind from the NAVY LOSS!

4th)--The michigan game--- i already addressed that--he played well but his injury cost us the game--if your not durable THAT IS NOT A PLUS.---And he played well against MSU , but his fumble in the 4th quarter, unassisted fumble as Dayne just lost concentration and threw it on the ground---without that mistake we would have avoided overtime.

Essentially your point main point is if the team played as well under crist as it did under rees , then crist would clearly be better.---I mean think about that !?!---Talk about being unfair to REES and bending over backwards for Crist---

The two QBs bring a very different skill set--- i like what rees does--- i like the team i saw under rees---I was in some despair watching the team under crist---THIS IS NOT CONTROVERSIAL IN ANY WAY---IT IS A FAIR AND JUSTIFIED OPINION BY ANY MEASURE--That many in the fan base share.

No reason to devolve into name-calling please---on an issue that my goodness anyone can see is tricky- i see you gave me at least a RATIONAL on that last post, so thats an improvment-- i think it should be transparent that favoring Rees over crist is not some bazarr , novel position that isn't resonable, its just a different opinion---afterall THE COACH CAN"T EVEN DECIDE!---.

So as you see i read your points- but i find them unconvincing. Dayne is a completely UNPROVEN QB----maybe he will play great---but nothing from last year makes that point very strongly.

They are different QBs--Different skills sets---Different potentials--Different records---

Its a tough choice for kelly and thats why none has been made yet!

 

[amgarvey]

I wanted to add one more thing. I love Tommy Rees. The kid is a gamer and was just what the Irish needed when Crist went down. Two things he has that any quarterback would have a hard time matching up with are his heart and incredible poise. In my effort to back Dayne I didn't make it clear enough that Tommy is THE MAN.

 

[NDinL.A.]

ND in LA from my persective it seems like you are the one ignoring every statistic that favors Rees . Which by the way are all the major ones. But let me address your points.

Completely wrong. I said from the jump that I LOVE Rees and appreciate all he did for us. I also said that Crist has many deficiencies that he has to improve on. That's the difference between you and I. I can see the other point of view and acknowledge its merits. Up to this point, you refused.

1st) Dayne may be a better runner and Rees in Cement but that is totally cancelled out as a Crist advatage because he is simply a GLASS QB. NEITHER REES OR CRIST CAN RUN!

Not true. With FOUR qb's in the fold, Kelly doesn't have to play with kid gloves anymore. Crist will be free to run b/c Kelly knows he has Rees to turn to, plus 2 freshmen that he'll be grooming. And that gives Crist a huge advantage over Rees. He had 4 TDs and 5 runs of double-digit yardage. Big advantage to Crist.

2nd) Dayne can power the ball down field. --Rees laid out some beautiful passes to kamara and eifert go back and look at the tape--dropped right in the bucket over the top!

I mean, you said it yourself right there...'laid out over the top'. Those throws were about 25-30 yard rainbows. He can't hit the post pattern on a line (see: USC game INT), he can't throw the 15 yard out, and he can't throw the bomb. When he is in, the offense becomes limited b/c he can't run nor can he make every throw the Crist can make (Rees couldn't make the bomb to Rudolph, for example). This is not even a debate, and even though you think his arm is improving, so is Crist's and the fact is that Rees will never come close to having Crist's arm strength. But thank you for making my point.

3rd) You point to the USC game-- well thats a two edged sword---Rees dominated the second quarter with two TD passes and keeping the ball almost the entire quarter--that hot streak along with the final drive was enough to get the job done and DELIVER ONE OF OUR BIGGEST WINS!---Yes Rees had a tough day--what does that mean though---rees a true frosh had trouble in parts of that game--playing against a monte kiiffen defense--playing in the rain--playing in a hostile tough venue--yet he still did enough to win.

Rees did have a good quarter LOL (so did Cierre Wood incidentally, helping Rees with 54 yds rushing that qt), but how was he when we had the lead and all we had to do was not give the ball up? He was garbage, and it was against THE WORST DEFENSE IN THE HISTORY OF USC. I could give a rat's *** that it was led by Monte Kiffin - Hawaii dropped 600 yds of offense on them! Ask any USC fan and she'll tell you that defense was garbage. If Rees having trouble in 'parts of that game' means almost the entire game, then yes, you're correct.

See, what you totally fail to see is that football is a TEAM game. You're the guy who says Dan Marino sucks b/c he never won a SB, even though he never had a running game and his defenses always sucked. You give Crist the running game and the defense that Rees got, and he would have gone 4-0 also. You bring up Navy, and yes Crist sucked against Navy. But the team also scored 17 points - if he had scored 17 points in ANY of Rees' 4 starts, he would have won ALL 4 GAMES (Miami too - they scored most their points against back ups). It's a team game my man. Crist would have LOVED to have Rees' defense.

4th)--The michigan game--- i already addressed that--he played well but his injury cost us the game--if your not durable THAT IS NOT A PLUS.---And he played well against MSU , but his fumble in the 4th quarter, unassisted fumble as Dayne just lost concentration and threw it on the ground---without that mistake we would have avoided overtime.

Agree on the durability issue. That's a problem.

On MSU, are you serious??? You're going to take ONE playout of that game and blame the loss on Crist? Did Skip Bayless just walk into the room? WTF? 4 TDs to one pick, with the defense completely sucking and the running game getting only a pathetic 3.5 yds a pop, and you blame a late fumble by Crist? C'mon dude, be better than that. You want to talk about a turnover costing us a game, look no further than Tulsa and Rees.

Essentially your point main point is if the team played as well under crist as it did under rees , then crist would clearly be better.---I mean think about that !?!---Talk about being unfair to REES and bending over backwards for Crist---

It's very simple - did the defense at the beginning of the season (under a new system) play as well as they did at the end of the season? Not even close. Did we run the ball and stay committed to the run like we did at the end of the season? Again, not even close.

Look at how many times Rees had to throw vs. the times Crist had to!!! Crist had to throw the ball over 25 times EVERY single game (8 times, 100% of the time). Rees had to throw the ball over 20 times 3 out of 5 times (60%). In 2 of those games, he threw 3 INTs (Crist NEVER did that), and in the other, he threw for a 51% completion percentage. Bottom line, you can't ask Rees to win games for you, but you can ask Crist to.

i think it should be transparent that favoring Rees over crist is not some bazarr , novel position that isn't resonable, its just a different opinion---afterall THE COACH CAN"T EVEN DECIDE!---.

I never said it was bizarre. Like I said, you didn't even read my posts closely, because I clearly said "Look, I love what Rees did for us, and I'll be happy with him as a starter." All I said was that this wasn't a debate b/c you were ignoring all sides and just screaming the same points over and over again. This was the first time you actually debated points that others made, and I had to ask you twice to do it.

You want to continue this, then dissect what I wrote and come back at my thoughts like you just did...

 

[BeauBenken]

Aloha you're including a 6/7 180 passer rating Rees had in the Navy game, aren't you?

Scrub time shouldn't count. Nay, doesn't count.

 

[adsnorri]

Tommy is a freshmen and is already comparable to dayne. My only problem with dayne is that he is not consistently making the read on time and is afraid to. Tommy keeps the momentum going because he completes the ten 5 -7 passes. Dayne is always looking for the big play instead of keeping the drive alive...which is one reason why the defense was playing for dayne like it was tommy. The defense was fresh for tommy. Those short passes are momentum holders and confidence builders. Now the defense has to spread out so cierre can run up the middle. It's a team game so, it's not just the defense all of a sudden played well and the running game picked it up. The scheme and good play by tommy contributed largely. Second year jump will be huge in order to minimize int s. But I personally love the gun slinger that is willing to take some risks here and there...besides tulsa! Lol btw, if were in that same position this year... Bk does the same thing and we win. Aggressive teams win.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I want to say that it seems like Crist's flaws are a large part mental which is totally fixable. Rees's flaws seem to be physical which will limit him forever. Another benefit of Crist.

I want Hendrix over both of them though.

 

[eNDzone]

I want Hendrix over both of them though.

+1

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Tommy is a freshmen and is already comparable to dayne. My only problem with dayne is that he is not consistently making the read on time and is afraid to. Tommy keeps the momentum going because he completes the ten 5 -7 passes. Dayne is always looking for the big play instead of keeping the drive alive...which is one reason why the defense was playing for dayne like it was tommy. The defense was fresh for tommy. Those short passes are momentum holders and confidence builders. Now the defense has to spread out so cierre can run up the middle. It's a team game so, it's not just the defense all of a sudden played well and the running game picked it up. The scheme and good play by tommy contributed largely. Second year jump will be huge in order to minimize int s. But I personally love the gun slinger that is willing to take some risks here and there...besides tulsa! Lol btw, if were in that same position this year... Bk does the same thing and we win. Aggressive teams win.

Seems like a pretty darn good analysis.

 

[Rocket89]

Aloha, in your first comment you said:

"If Crist starts we will not win the first three games, we will get off to a rocky start just like last season and eventually the team will turn to Rees , but unfortunately we will have our win streak ended by that point."

Let me address some of the topics you keep bringing up about Rees.

I think there is some truth to the notion that Rees coming in late in the season helped the team. I have no problem crediting his calmness, relative accuracy on 1st down, and his ability to get the ball out of his hand quickly.

Read this slowly...Rees has an advantage in his quick release and better accuracy in the short passing game over Crist.

Comparing last year, those two attributes helped Rees move the offense (at times) better than Crist was able to.

Do you see how I'm crediting Rees? Absolutely his quick release helped lessen the sacks and open up the running game a little bit.

However, we have to also credit the system and the fact that Rees wasn't asked to do the things Crist was. Also, it was patently clear that ALL the players stepped up after the bye week and made Rees look better. It's not magic, it's called coaching and players (likely) realizing they had to play better with a true freshman at QB.

So while Rees deserves some credit for the hot finish to the season, the majority of it goes to the rest of the players.

This whole worshiping at the alter of winning is pretty ridiculous as well. Plenty of quarterbacks have started out their careers with undefeated streaks, or tremendous records...only to never be heard from again after a few months. As many people have pointed out, we had a young QB win twice as many games as Rees, then fall off the face of the earth.

You keep refusing to give Crist credit, and then say that the players stepping up their game was some magic-fallacy. Isn't pretending that Rees is some bullet-proof winner an even bigger fallacy? What if he does start against USF and we lose? Are we really supposed to expect that Rees is never going to lose again? If he plays again for any prolonged amount of time, he will lose some games, and then what will people like you be saying?

I think I've been fair to Rees so far and tried to give him credit for what he's done and praise his strengths. Now I'm going to tell you why I think Crist starts and plays all of next year if he stays healthy, and why Rees has an uphill battle to climb, even against Hendrix and down the road against Golson. Speak to these statements if you want to:

1.) Turnovers

Rees threw an interception once every 20.5 attempts. He did so while playing in a much more conservative offense, while not being asked to do a lot, and had the benefit of the offensive line playing a little better, the rushing game getting a boost from Cierre Wood's explosiveness, and the defense putting him in great spots.

This is a huge black mark for Rees. If we're going to credit him for being accurate on 1st down and running the offense more smoothly, we also have to accept the fact that he turned the ball over far too often.

In contrast, Crist only threw a pick once every 42 attempts. He only had one game (Navy with two) where he threw more than one interception. He tossed the ball 294 times and only threw 7 interceptions. Do you realize how great of a stat that is for a first-year starter?

Yeah, maybe Crist was inconsistent, had too many three and outs and all that, but he was incredibly careful with the ball. It's not that hard to believe that once he gets more comfortable with the system and the players, that inconsistency will dissolve. Even with just a little bit more consistency and the SAME EXACT turnover ratio, Crist will be one of the top quarterbacks in the country. That is why so many people favor him and think he could be our best guy.

2. Rees' potential is limited

You could argue that Rees' turnovers will be fixed as he gets older and more mature with experience. Very true...but the same is true for Crist, who has already proven he's light years away from Rees in protecting the ball.

So while both QB's are bound to get smarter, more comfortable in the system, and make better decisions, the fact remains that Rees just doesn't have the same potential.

I won't say Crist is a much better runner, but he's better. All we need is a little bit of running, and he can provide that. Rees cannot.

The offense will never open up with Rees. At some point defenses will adjust and things will get harder and harder for Rees and the offense. That's not really a path I'm too excited to walk down.

As a former smaller athlete myself, I'm not crazy about knocking Rees' lack of arm strength, size, and running ability...but it definitely hurts him, and it stifles the offense.

Like I said before, maybe he's the second coming of Joe Montana, but I haven't seen much evidence to support such a belief.

3. The "Wow" factor/Taking over games

To put it bluntly, I was not that impressed with Rees beyond his calmness and ability to be sharp on screens, and some other short throws. I also think he shows incredible touch on the 20 to 30 yard passes he threw to Kamara against Utah and Eifert against Army.

Rees never took over a game by himself or put the offense on his shoulders. There was no "wow" factor in anything he did.

Again, we can make excuses and say he's a freshman, or that he wasn't asked to do much in the offense. Those are true to a point.

But if we're going to worship at the alter of Tommy "The Winner" Rees, I would have liked to have seen him make some plays where I was excited to see what he can do in the future.

That didn't happen. If during the 4-0 finish Rees put the team on his back late in the game, or made some outstanding plays in the clutch, I'd be more apt to see him play over Crist. But that wasn't there.

It was so obvious that everyone else was playing at a high level, that we seemed to be winning despite Rees. And since there was no "wow" factor with Rees and his potential is limited, I'm not really sure his future is all that bright beyond being a quality back up.

A great example would be Taylor Martinez at Nebraska. He was very inconsistent at times, and really kind of played poorly at times later in the season...but he carried the Husker offense for long stretches. He single handily made plays by himself and gave their fans a glimpse of what the future could hold.

Rees was pretty much the exact opposite. I love the greater consistency and the calmness, but I also believe that kids (even as young freshman) show their potential early and in many cases, what you see is what you get. They might improve decision making, limiting turnovers, but what you see is what you get. That's why Rees is probably in the back seat.

Rees played great against Miami, he really did. But the future is brighter than that, and I don't think Rees is the guy to take us there.

His other three games against Utah, Army, and USC were collectively pretty "meh." Again, it's really super difficult to buy into the "he's a winner and just won't lose!" argument when the offense looked either terrible or pretty damn mediocre in those three wins.

And of course Rees broke some freshman records against Tulsa. OMG HE BROKE RECORDS HE'S THE BEST EVER!!!

How many freshman quarterbacks have thrown 54 balls against an opponent?

Even in a game where Rees broke some school records, I thought he played average to below average. Sure it was his first full game and he was young and inexperienced, but you have to take the good with the bad.

Tulsa played only one other BCS team last year, and Oklahoma State racked up 574 yards passing (that was 240 more yards on 11 fewer passes than Rees), to go with 8 touchdowns, only one pick, and 72.1% completions.

Put up against what a good BCS team to Tulsa, Rees' game wasn't that great. And I won't get into the game-ending interception either.

What's more, Rees threw 8 touchdowns (66% total) on the season from 12 yards or less.

He threw 7 touchdowns from 10 yards or less.

He threw half of his touchdowns from 6 yards or less!

He had five TD passes from inside the five yard line!

If we had punched those 6 from the 6 in on the ground, Rees' passer rating would have dropped all the way to 119 and almost outside the top 100 in the nation.

That's why when you're saying he broke records with 12 TD passes, I'm like yeah well it's not like he was burying teams with beautiful darts from that far out. Give Rees credit for throwing them yes, but the bar isn't set very high if we think 8 touchdowns on 40 total yards is that impressive.

In contrast, Crist had the "wow" factor at certain times. No matter how inconsistent he may have been, he was asked to do soooo much more, everything was on him, and he came through at times.

That is big time in my eyes.

Honestly, I thought Crist played very well for a first time starter right up until the Navy game. Just to make sure it sinks in...he was on pace to shatter records for first year starters.

At times, Crist carried our team. Rees never did. Crist carried our team on offense without the higher level of play we saw at the end of the year.

You said Crist's best game was against WMU (of course you're just looking at passer rating), but he completely torched Michigan State with one of the best passing performances we've seen in quite a while!!

Crist played better and put up bigger numbers against a very tough Michigan State team, than Rees did against the country's worst passing defense in Tulsa.

Doesn't that mean anything???

Crist was our best player that day, he was a star. He wasn't perfect (who is?) but he carried Notre Dame that day. He put up better numbers, while getting only 3.5 YPC help on the ground, while Rees struggled more against Tulsa with 5.2 YPC help on the ground.

These are the kind of statistics people look at when trying to show that Crist was better.

I will admit that there are plenty of people who might be unfairly willing to criticize Rees, but in my mind, the way in which you are dismissing Crist is a lot worse.

Look at his numbers from last year. For a first year starter, they are very good. He was tasked with making a lot tougher throws and had the weight of the world on his shoulders.

If we're going to say that 2,000 yards and 15 TD's with only 7 interceptions in seven and a half games is PROOF that Crist is not capable of being a great quarterback, well good luck trying to find the guy you want.

There are way more people salivating at Rees' play and unfairly criticizing Crist's play than vice versa. And that pretty much sums up your posts over the past few days.

 

[alohagoirish]

I fully understand why so many favor crist -NDINLA---its just i don't see the same picture!

Many love the 5 star resume from HS---They like the size and strength----They like the BIG ARM---They like what they believe is his better mobility. And of course they admire Crist for showing the tenacity to Rehab two terrible injuries back to back!--They feel that even though dayne had very mixed results at QB he would have been better if he had the support of the REES team.---

I also fully understand the collective KNOCKS on REES, he is immobile--his resume is a mere 3 star---he does not have a power arm--and he does not look the part of an ND QB given his freshman frame.

But then WHY O WHY is there even a question here--WHY didn't the staff just annoint crist once again---why was there and is there such a ferocious competition between them for the starting role!

Because there is simply more to the story--a second set of facts that bring both players much closer in overall effectivness , even though Crist wins the LOOK AT ME contest going away.

Tommy has better pocket presence. Tommy has better touch & timing. Tommy has a quicker release. Tommy throws TDs at a higher rate. Tommy seems much more comfortable running the team then does dayne. Tommy has a better feel for the spread then Dayne. Tommy does not have trouble "hitting those 8 or 9 passes when the protection is right and the reciever is open ". Tommy just feels like he has the winners touch and the results certainly feed that perspective!

Dayne can be inconsistent and inaccurate. Dayne can hold onto the ball too long and take unnecessary sacks. Dayne is injury prone which limits the QB running option ALMOST as much as REES does. Dayne often just looks & acts, slow, plodding and indecisive in the pocket.

Then there are some other muddling factor. Tommy threw more picks then dayne and there is no guarantee that those turnovers will give way to second year experience. Dayne has the possibility to make some type of big jump gaining from his sketchy performance in many of last years games (NAVY)!-- Dayne is a senior--a fully developed player mentally & physically a very desirable factor in any QB.

It seems quite clear this is a MIXED BAG, thats why the staff is taking so long to let this competition play out.

Both QBs are not ideal for the Kelly system---thats is why Kelly has made it clear the running QB --either hendricks or golson---depending on who wins that competition will be the relief package and pace changer.---An exciting plan by the way.

Both QBs seem to have the tools to win games---Clearly Rees has already demonstrated that---and dayne has had some good games and halfs of games as well.---Both guys have had bad games and sketchy periods---Rees at USC--dayne in several games--NAVY__BC__STANFORD

Both QBs seem to have their strengths and their weaknesses.

IMO Rees seems to get more of a " hes only a back up " then he deserves considering his level of play at a time when the IRISH COULD NOT HAVE BEEN LOWER---the sullivan tragedy---the 4th loss of the season to navy no less--the frittering away of another new coaches season---and finally the injury to our starting QB our starting TE our starting Tailback & our starting Slot reciever--IT WAS A DARK DAY FOR THE IRISH--that many i believe have forgotten about while they bask in the strong finish -- the season saving finish---YET THERE IS A BIG RELUCTANCE TO APPRECIATE the skill and focus and overall cool that it took a TRUE FRESHMAN --TO LEAD THAT TURNAROUND __yes football is a team sport---but the QB is the leader without doubt.

I do not dislike dayne--this is nothing personal at all--in fact i admire his grit and discipline coming back from injury after injury as much as the next guy.---I rooted for dayne with all i had last year --and expected to see a 5 star---groomed by two QB guru,s WEIS & KELLY--with FLOYD & RUDOLPH TO THROW TO---I expected just a lights out performance by the upperclassman.

But as the season wore on , i became more and more discouraged with daynes play, and as most everyone noticed Dayne, INSTEAD OF IMPROVING as the year went on APPEARED TO BE REGRESSING----I can't help it but i simply lost CONFIDENCE IN DAYNE AFTER THAT NAVY GAME.

After Rees came in for one play in michigan and promptly threw a pick i had very very low expectations for REES--and i think its fair to say most every ND fan was ready to throw in the towel after a bad year seemed to go totally SOUTH after Crist went down.

Rees rose to the moment in the spirit of a TRUE IRISH PLAYER---I liked what i saw---i felt more confident---i liked the POP POP passes---i liked the more deliberate pace--I LIKED WINNING!

Do i give REES too much credit for the finish and give Dayne too much blame for the start----perhaps--but then it may be that others give too much latitude to Dayne and are too hard on REES----TIME WILL TELL.

I also understand the conventional wisdom is that Crist will win the job, i am not really looking forward to that, but it is what it is. I will have to hold on to my chair and keep my fingers crosses that I AM WRONG that daynes weaknesses are big enough to cost the team the fast start they so desperately need.

I think the staff understands my viewpoint better then some--thats why i hold out hope that Rees may still get the call. If we picked up right where we left off i could not be happier or more confident we get out of the gates 3-0. If we go back to square one with dayne, I just don't know.

The season will settle this one way or the other, so at least this is not a debate that will be forever in a vacuum.---I wish dayne well if he starts but i will remain solid in the REES camp until GOLSON IS READY TO TAKE CHARGE!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

... Then on his longest run of the season he blows out the other knee from a blow to the head & shoulder area.

So far, as far as I can remember, you are the only one that has mentioned this besides me. I was a huge Crist fan, but started noticing his total field awareness seemed to be lacking. He didn't seem to notice defensive ends about to pounce on him, within 1 inch of his focus downfield. That's when I started to doubt him. This discussion has happened before. about mid season last season. I posted that Crist had a serious lack of peripheral vision. I mean geez...

I replayed the hit where he got his knee injured. Just before the hit, he looked surprised at the second before he got hit that a defender was about to hit him. If it is possible, go back and watch the video of that play., Crist seemed so unaware. I wondered what the **** he was looking at or thinking.

I agree that bottom line is wins vs. losses, rather than really cool stats. I am a huge Crist fan, and hope he can prove himself. Maybe if Kelly gives Crist the same calls as he did Rees, Crist will be great.

Who knows...

 

[Rocket89]

Neutered, where are you correcting Aloha for calling Hendrix, Hendricks??

 

[IrishMoore1]

Crist is still unproven. He has not shown he can consistently make the big plays when his team needs it. Rees has done it multiple times with absolute poise. When he's on the field, I'm not worried at all that he's gonna psych himself out or throw the ball into the dirt. The kid is ready to play from the first down on the field.

 

[Rocket89]

Aloha, you keep clinging to a bunch of fluff and not answering anyone's comments.

So Crist was a 5-star and wasn't Johnny Lujack the moment he became starter last year. And Rees was a 3-star who somehow played well above his prospect level.

That stuff doesn't mean crap, if anything, it just shows your bias that you're dying for the underdog to win. As many have pointed out, Rees looked very much like a 3-star talent last year. Crist showed glimpses of his 5-star talent, even with his inconsistencies.

There's not "more to the story." You're only going to have so much longer to be able to hide behind this belief.

We have four good quarterbacks right now, or at least four who can either move the ball or have copious amounts of potential. What good would it do for Crist to be named the starter back in April??

None, and Kelly did the smart thing by fostering a quarterback competition between ALL of the quarterbacks.

Also, Kelly never said Rees played the best in the BG game. He said he was the most accurate. Of course he was, because he was doing simple plays that all three other quarterbacks can do in their sleep. Meanwhile Crist was working on throws that Rees can't even attempt because they'd be a pick 6 everytime. The BG game showed yet again that it's not all on the QB, and that the receivers are still having a hard time learning their routes correctly.

Stop saying Rees is better because he threw more touchdowns. That's like saying Hughes was better than Allen because he had 7 more touchdowns on the ground. It doesn't really carry that much weight when Hughes always got the ball near the goal line.

 

[alohagoirish]

All you offer is that " Crist showed 5 star talent even with his inconsistency"---Thats it---NOT MUCH of a ringing endorsement and based on absolutely nothing. I have offered statistics and outcomes to back up every thing i like about Rees and have dealt with every argument for Crist as fairly as possible.

You say " stop saying Rees is better becasue he threw more touchdowns "----thas just an odd comment--- THAT WAS ONE OF 15 factors i point to that makes me like Rees--the very important TD passes which he threw at a brisker pace then crist. AND YOUR ANSWER--"STOP SAYING THAT"!---i mean come'on who is showing bias here??--it seems like you simply " Can't handle the truth"!

You say Kelly didn't say Rees played the best in the B&G game he said REES was more accurate---Thats just silly----Kelly gave Rees the nod for the best play in the B&G game and you simply don't like that.---Please be honest and not so stubborn rocket!

I accept the debate as put by NDinLA its a close debate with factors for both players---BUT really rocket

Your points are weak , bias , on on their face ANTI_REES ---

The fact is you just don't want to hear it !-

Please tell me what YOU THINK Dayne accomplished last year that seperates him so far from REES----Not your subjective opinion but what he actually did on the field that merits this perfunctory dismissal of all that REES did.

Did you like Crist against NAVY?--did you think he played well against Stanford?---Do you think he threw touchdowns that somehow didn't get counted? --Did you think he improved throughout the year ?---Do you think he was DURABLE?--Did you like his touch? Did you like his pocket movement?--Did you like all the sacks he took?

Geez---you simply don't like it that someone has a different view, thats childish.

There is plenty to base liking REES over crist- I am just one of MANY that feel that way---from game results to stats--to improvement----Rees's best game was his last--Crists worst game was his last---

I gave Crist credit for his physical tools but i simply cannot make up results that did not appear on the field.

"Every other QB can do what REES did in their sleep" and "Crist was having a tough time because he was working on harder stuff"---that is such a reach, spare me--such an insult to rees and such padding for Crist--- just so much empty rhetoric.

Rees led us to some great wins and played better then any freshman QB ND ever fielded in doing so---be a man--give him his due---and stop complaining that someone holds a different view then YOU my friend!

 

[Rocket89]

Really? All I've offered is "Crist has shown 5-star level talent"? Really?

I've written two very long posts giving a detailed look at why I think Crist is better, and you've answered virtually nothing from them. Hint: That's the problem here.

I actually agree with most of what you're saying about Rees. But you are utterly incapable of looking at Crist objectively and fairly.

It's not that you have a different view point, it's that you're not listening to anything anyone else is saying. Don't you think it's odd that numerous people are calling you out on here? Most people are not calling you out because you think Rees is better....it's how you're grinding a huge ax against Crist.

Since you've tried to turn this around and called me childish, that my points are "weak", and that all I can come up with (after writing about 3,000 words on this topic) is to "stop saying that"...let's me know I'm winning the argument and you're stubbornly refusing to give up any ground, let alone admit you're 100% a Tommy Rees fan boy.

You've offered statistics a 5th grader would point to, and I've countered any of those I disagreed with. You have spoken to none of those responses.

Case in point...the Michigan State game.

That game was the best performance from an Irish quarterback in 2010. But please, completely ignore someone like me bringing that game up.

Less turnovers.

More passing yards.

More rushing yards.

Carrying the offense

Making tougher throws

All factual and true. Where is the subjective opinion in any of that?

Here is Kelly's comments about Rees in the BG Game:

"I think it's capability over speed is what Tommy brings. He can see the field. He had three legitimate drops out there today where he put the ball right on.

I think in terms of accuracy today, and, again, I'll go back and watch the film, but I think Tommy was the most accurate in throwing the football. He was a little late in an overdrag off the play action where the ball got deflected. But by and large I thought he was right on.

He showed his fire. We kicked the field goal because we want to see a kicker out there. He said, coach, what's wrong with you? We would have normally gone for this. I said, Tommy, it's a spring game, relax.

So he's a competitive kid. He wants to be out there and that's what you love when you're working with a quarterback like him."

Nowhere in that statement did Kelly say Rees was the best quarterback in the game, or better than Crist.

What he did say was that he was the most accurate, or exactly what I told you he said. The coaching staff has never mentioned anything about the spring game or practices that said Rees was playing better than Crist.

All factual evidence.

It's at the point right now where I'm pretty sure you're either not reading any of these posts or just skimming them lightly and looking for statements to prevert.

I've spent plenty of time and words giving Rees his due and complimenting him on his positive attributes and the things I think he did well and can do well in the future.

Due to the fact that you can't handle the other things I keep bringing up about Crist, it is obvious that you're trying to paint me as some anti-Rees person who won't listen. You're doing that because you're losing the argument...it's obvious.

This happens every once in a while on this message board. Someone eventually gets their argument chipped away at and they start projecting their faults and inability to debate an issue like like a grown up onto others.

I haven't given Rees his due and my arguments are just subjective opinion that are boiled down to a couple sentences. You're so right...

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Neutered, where are you correcting Aloha for calling Hendrix, Hendricks??

Nah, I specialize in blatant abuse of "hear, here," "their, there, they're," and an occasional "its, it's." SirDshands is the general practioner. And the mods usually handle athlete names.

Otherwise, I read holistically for content. But, now that you mention it, what does "statements to prevert" mean in your above post?

All "sides" to this discussion seem to be making decent points. I admit that I lean toward the side of "who won more games?" But again, I'll bring up that I believe even Kelly said the scheme was changed for Rees. So we don't know if Crist could have done better under a different play calling situation. The entire team was learning a new scheme with Crist at QB, so it is impossible to say how Rees would have performed had he started the season.