Why does ND always choke in the Tournament?

[IrishMoore1]

Answer: Mike Brey

Consider the following:

SEASON W-L RESULTS

2023
Won't make the tournament (1-9 ACC as of this edit)

2022
Defeated No. 11 Rutgers 89-87 (First Four)
Defeated No. 6 Alabama in first round, 78-64
Lost to No. 3 Texas Tech in second round, 59-53

2021
Didn't make the tournament

2020
N/A (COVID)

2019
Didn't make the tournament

2018
Didn't make the tournament

2017
Defeated No. 5 Princeton in first round, 60-58
Lost to No. 4 West Virginia in second round, 83-71

2016
Defeated No. 11 Michigan in first round, 70-63
Defeated No. 14 Stephen F. Austin in second round, 76-75
Defeated No. 7 Wisconsin in the Sweet 16, 61-56
Lost to No. 1 North Carolina in the Elite 8, 88-74

2015
Defeated No. 14 Northeastern in first round, 69-65
Defeated No. 6 Butler in the second round, 67-64 (OT)
Defeated No. 7 Wichita State in the Sweet 16, 81-70
Lost to No. 1 Kentucky in the Elite 8, 68-66

2014
Didn't make the tournament

2013
Lost to Iowa State in the first round, 77-58

2012 (0-1)
Lost to Xavier in the first round, 67-63

2011 (1-1)
Defeated Akron in first round, 69-56
Lost to Florida State in second round, 71-57

2010 (0-1)
Lost to Old Dominion in first round, 51-50

2009
Didn't make the tournament

2008 (1-1)
Defeated George Mason in first round, 68-50
Lost to Washington State in second round, 61-41

2007 (0-1)
Lost to Winthrop in first round, 74-64

2006
Didn't make the tournament

2005
Didn't make the tournament

2004
Didn't make the tournament

2003 (2-1)
Defeated Wisconsin-Milwaukee in first round, 70-69
Defeated Illinois in second round, 68-60
Lost to Arizona in regional semifinal, 88-71

2002 (1-1 )
Defeated Charlotte in first round, 82-63
Lost to Duke in second round, 84-77

2001 (1-1)
Defeated Xavier in first round, 83-71
Lost to Mississippi in second round, 59-56

What has Brey done in his 23 year tenure? Two back-to-back appearances in the Elite 8. He's finally "retiring"

 

[A Pac]

Our players are white. 'Nuff said.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Quick question for you...Do you remember what basketball was like at Notre Dame before Brey got here?

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Our players are white. 'Nuff said.

OMG I was just thinking that and was going to write..."To many white guys on the team." LMAO

 

[InKellyITrust]

Our players are white. 'Nuff said.

I do feel that Brey gets a lot out of the players that he has. But, it is his responsibility to bring in talented players as well.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Answer:

We don't have thugs.

Basketball is football on a court these days.

 

[IrishMoore1]

Too many white players is not the main problem. Just look at Duke who won the tournament last year.

 

[phillyirish]

The problem is that ND never has any athletes. they can pass and shoot but once they face a team that is full of athletes or uses a full court press they can't do nothing. its not mike brey's fault for under achieving in the touney, its his fault for overachieving in the regular season. he takes 2 star bums like abromitis and hansbrough and turns them into all big east players. don't blame him, remember this is a football school where the basketball team has been far more dominate in recent years.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

The problem is that ND never has any athletes. they can pass and shoot but once they face a team that is full of athletes or uses a full court press they can't do nothing. its not mike brey's fault for under achieving in the touney, its his fault for overachieving in the regular season. he takes 2 star bums like abromitis and hansbrough and turns them into all big east players. don't blame him, remember this is a football school where the basketball team has been far more dominate in recent years.

Terrible excuse. Butler and Duke don't have athletes and both went to the championship game last year and are in the Sweet 16 this year.

 

[phillyirish]

Terrible excuse. Butler and Duke don't have athletes and both went to the championship game last year and are in the Sweet 16 this year.

Terribly ignorant, Duke recruits ridiculously and even Butler gets better players than ND

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Terrible excuse. Butler and Duke don't have athletes and both went to the championship game last year and are in the Sweet 16 this year.

Wait wait wait...I'm pretty sure Butler had a NBA lottery pick last year.

And don't ever say Duke doesn't get athletes. Have you seen Nolan Smith? Have you seen Irving? If Irving didn't get injured this year he could have been the number one pick in the draft.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Terribly ignorant, Duke recruits ridiculously and even Butler gets better players than ND

^This

 

[phillyirish]

Wait wait wait...I'm pretty sure Butler had a NBA lotery pick last year.

And don't ever say Duke doesn't get athletes. Have you seen Nolan Smith? Have you seen Irving? If Irving didn't get injured this year he could have been the number one pick in the draft.

^This

 

[Irish Fam]

Mike Brey is not responsible for this. He turned ND basketball around.

There are a couple hundred programs that would trade in who they have now for Brey.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

And don't ever say Duke doesn't get athletes. Have you seen Nolan Smith? Have you seen Irving? If Irving didn't get injured this year he could have been the number one pick in the draft.

Still might. I think him returning for the Tourney re-upped his draft stock.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Still might. I think him returning for the Tourney re-upped his draft stock.

Good point.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

Mike Brey is not responsible for this. He turned ND basketball around.

There are a couple hundred programs that would trade in who they have now for Brey.

Agree. I think its comical how everyone loved him when he was being interviewed on Rome and almost making them a number 1 seed. Now those who have hated him for the last 2-3 years are coming back out to show their faces.

Its almost scary how perfect Brey fits the role as a an ND head coach.

Who is out there do you feel 100% confident that they could continue with this type of success?

Its the Andy Reid argument--If you arguing for the mere fact that you want a fresh start then I ca'tn argue with you, but if youre arguing because he isnt successful then you just need to compare the past to the present. Just be careful what you ask for.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Brey is a fine coach.

Simply put, we play good ole fashion basketball. And well at that.

ND's game can't compete physically.

Too bad basketball isn't about fundamentals anymore. It's all about physicality.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Agree. I think its comical how everyone loved him when he was being interviewed on Rome and almost making them a number 1 seed. Now those who have hated him for the last 2-3 years are coming back out to show their faces.

Its almost scary how perfect Brey fits the role as a an ND head coach.

Who is out there do you feel 100% confident that they could continue with this type of success?

Its the Andy Reid argument--If you arguing for the mere fact that you want a fresh start then I ca'tn argue with you, but if youre arguing because he isnt successful then you just need to compare the past to the present. Just be careful what you ask for.

That's what I'm saying...I don't think people remember what ND basketball was like before Brey got here.

 

[IrishLax]

We choke because we don't play the right style of basketball to go deep in the NCAAs. And we don't play the correct style because we don't have the athletes.

You need strong defense, strong inside scoring, at least one guy with an outside shot, senior leadership, at least one guy who can beat his man off the dribble routinely with both hands, depth and at least one sure-fire lottery-pick style pro prospect to win a championship. We only have senior leadership and three point shooters and are missing every other part of that formula.

All of that being said, Florida State played the offensive game of their lives last night and would've beaten any team in the country. So while there are plenty of flaws with our team, they truly did have a great season and own wins over more sweet 16 teams then any other team in the country. So we can beat the high level competition... just got a run of bad luck. That is why they call it March Madness.

 

[InKellyITrust]

Brey continues to rack up the awards. The U.S. Basketball Writers Association named him the National Coach of the Year today. While ND had a frustrating end to their season, it doesn't take away from what a successful year that it was for the team. It caught the attention of many basketball people/"experts"/fans/analysts outside of South Bend, Indiana.

Notre Dame's Mike Brey named USBWA's national coach of the year - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

 

[KPENN]

Answer:

We don't have thugs.

Basketball is football on a court these days.

UNC doesn't have thugs and they do quite well in basketball.

 

[KPENN]

And let's not kid ourselves. FSU was a matchup nightmare for ND on the defensive end and they had one of their nights of the year shooting the ball

 

[Junkhead]

I miss David Rivers. That is all.

 

[Jerry]

What are your expectations for ND basketball? I mean if ND had made it to the Elite 8 or Final 4 once in the last decade does that make Brey a better coach? If they had a couple more sweet 16 appearances? I just don't think ND has much talent to begin with. I've learned my lesson about picking them to do anything in the tournament.

 

[IrishMoore1]

We choke because we don't play the right style of basketball to go deep in the NCAAs. And we don't play the correct style because we don't have the athletes.

You need strong defense, strong inside scoring, at least one guy with an outside shot, senior leadership, at least one guy who can beat his man off the dribble routinely with both hands, depth and at least one sure-fire lottery-pick style pro prospect to win a championship. We only have senior leadership and three point shooters and are missing every other part of that formula.

All of that being said, Florida State played the offensive game of their lives last night and would've beaten any team in the country. So while there are plenty of flaws with our team, they truly did have a great season and own wins over more sweet 16 teams then any other team in the country. So we can beat the high level competition... just got a run of bad luck. That is why they call it March Madness.

I think IrishLax has a good point. We don't have all the proper pieces to consistently compete in the tournament at the end of the season. However, I wouldn't call every tournament run or lack thereof a run of bad luck. Yeah perhaps against FSU it was bad luck, but every time for the last 9-10 years? I find that hard to believe. Also, to a very large degree, Brey is responsible for putting those pieces together that make a great team, and he fails horribly at it.

Yes, I know we can beat many of the sweet 16 teams, but we never actually do it in the tournament when it matters most. That tells me there is something wrong with the psyche of the team and with how Brey prepares his teams to compete at a high level.

To me, nothing is accomplished in a season unless it culminates in a good effort and performance at the tournament. We did not see that against FSU and to some extent Akron. In fact, we have never seen that during the entirety of Mike Brey's tenure. Sorry I hold such high standards for a program that competes in the best basketball conference in the country.

Perhaps you guys are happy with a couple of good regular season wins. I, conversely, expect much more if our team can beat some of the best teams in the country. Consider Charlie Weis for a moment in his first couple of years at ND. Would you be happy for us to get 9-10 wins every year, but get absolutely demolished in a BCS game at the end of the season every single year? I know I wouldn't. That's why Brey needs to move on.

 

[johnnykillz]

Too many white players is not the main problem. Just look at Duke who won the tournament last year.

Thank God for the charge foul. Or thank "White."

 

[IrishLax]

I think IrishLax has a good point. We don't have all the proper pieces to consistently compete in the tournament at the end of the season. However, I wouldn't call every tournament run or lack thereof a run of bad luck. Yeah perhaps against FSU it was bad luck, but every time for the last 9-10 years? I find that hard to believe. Also, to a very large degree, Brey is responsible for putting those pieces together that make a great team, and he fails horribly at it.

Yes, I know we can beat many of the sweet 16 teams, but we never actually do it in the tournament when it matters most. That tells me there is something wrong with the psyche of the team and with how Brey prepares his teams to compete at a high level.

To me, nothing is accomplished in a season unless it culminates in a good effort and performance at the tournament. We did not see that against FSU and to some extent Akron. In fact, we have never seen that during the entirety of Mike Brey's tenure. Sorry I hold such high standards for a program that competes in the best basketball conference in the country.

Perhaps you guys are happy with a couple of good regular season wins. I, conversely, expect much more if our team can beat some of the best teams in the country. Consider Charlie Weis for a moment in his first couple of years at ND. Would you be happy for us to get 9-10 wins every year, but get absolutely demolished in a BCS game at the end of the season every single year? I know I wouldn't. That's why Brey needs to move on.

A lot of good points here, too many to bold them all, and it really begs the question of what is "good enough" and what needs to be changed to get there if we're not meeting those expectations.

To elaborate, let's say that you must have a lottery pick style player to win a championship. Not always true, a lot of teams do very well if they have multiple later round pro prospects, but for argument's sake let's say you need at least one elite guy.

Of the 16 teams remaining, 8 of them have one of the 14 projected lottery picks on ESPN. One team, Kentucky, has two. That leaves 5 total projected lottery picks not on a sweet 16 team. Of those, 3 are European players not eligible, one is from Texas and one is from Baylor.

Of the 8 teams that do not have a projected lottery pick, Marquette, VCU, FSU, Butler and Richmond are all Cinderellas without a realistic shot of winning the title. And of these teams FSU, Butler and Richmond all have players likely to be drafted. Only three teams with a legitimate title shot (Florida, Wisconsin, Kansas) do not have a projected lottery pick. Even this is misleading as Kansas probably has five future pros playing on this current team and the Morris twins + Selby are widely considered in the running for a lottery pick. Wisconsin and Florida each have a potential first round picks.

Notre Dame? Ben Hansbrough is the only remotely possible NBA prospect on our roster and he will likely not get drafted. At best, look for him to be drafted at the very end of round 2.

So if you're only satisfied with winning a national championship... and you can't win a national championship without a true pro prospect... and you aren't recruiting any top high school prospects... what do you do?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

You coach up the prospects and turn them into NBA players. Gordon Hayward was a 2 star and ended up being a top 10 pick just 2 years later. Shelvin Mack didn't have a big offer sheet and is going to be a pro. Stars don't matter. It's all about coaching. ND doesn't have any good coaching so they don't send players to the pros or play defense.

 

[IrishLax]

You coach up the prospects and turn them into NBA players. Gordon Hayward was a 2 star and ended up being a top 10 pick just 2 years later. Shelvin Mack didn't have a big offer sheet and is going to be a pro. Stars don't matter. It's all about coaching. ND doesn't have any good coaching so they don't send players to the pros or play defense.

That is a load of crap. You think Brey didn't coach up Hansbrough? He was the freaking BE player of the year after being a nobody coming out of high school!!! But players have ceilings, and someone with Hansbrough's height, quickness and overall athleticism has a lower ceiling than a Kyrie Irving no matter how much you coach them.

At the end of the day, basketball is one of those sports where God given physical abilities make or break a player. You can't teach 7 foot, a silky smooth jump shot or an Allen Iverson-esque cross over.