ND Can Flip the Switch - Great News!!!

[jonesman]

I am sure many of you like myself were really concerned at halftime. As we witnessed in many games today across the nation, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get players to play at a reall high level for 12 weeks straight.

Well, after 2 Qtrs of football today we were leading on the scoreboard, but losing the emotional effort battle. I liked Kelly's comments before half. He basically said that he can't play the game for them. The players had to take ownership.

So, the kids came out in the second half and did what I believe we had all been waiting to see. Could ND simply flip the switch and put its foot on a teams throat. Well, it got done today. I did not see anything that WM could do in the second half. Our D simply cranked it up. On O, we got to the runninng game and dominated. This type of effort is big.


I saw many comments today about Crist and must say that he is really struggling. I believe the guy is giving all he can, but his passing is just struggling. I will continue to be his supporter.

Go IIRISH.

 

[Shamrocks and Shenanigans]

Very good post and very true. It was nice to see the reaction in the 3rd to finally put an inferior team to rest.

 

[Junkhead]

It is nice to see our athleticism overwhelm the other team at times, even if it is a MAC team. Wood, Fleming, Gray, Floyd, etc, looked worlds better than the other team. We still don't get consistent pressure on the QB, but we definitely haven't looked like the past few years. The entire team looks ripped compared to last year!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I am sure many of you like myself were really concerned at halftime. As we witnessed in many games today across the nation, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get players to play at a reall high level for 12 weeks straight.

Well, after 2 Qtrs of football today we were leading on the scoreboard, but losing the emotional effort battle. I liked Kelly's comments before half. He basically said that he can't play the game for them. The players had to take ownership.

So, the kids came out in the second half and did what I believe we had all been waiting to see. Could ND simply flip the switch and put its foot on a teams throat. Well, it got done today. I did not see anything that WM could do in the second half. Our D simply cranked it up. On O, we got to the runninng game and dominated. This type of effort is big.


I saw many comments today about Crist and must say that he is really struggling. I believe the guy is giving all he can, but his passing is just struggling. I will continue to be his supporter.

Go IIRISH.

jonesman, agree with you for the most part (it might be considered heresy on here to dare disagree with you...), but I completely disagreed with Kelly's comments. Am I the only one who noticed the complete schematic change both offensively and defensively in the second half? Kelly should have at least mentioned that his coaches made adjustments. His athletes busted their asses the entire game.

The only reason Manti may have "looked" bad on pass coverage was because he was completely solo from sideline to sideline with the underneath. Carlo was either blitzing or on outside contain or something. Still not sure what they had him doing. In the second half, they seemed to go back to base 5-2, or 3-4 (whatever you want to call it) with shade adjustments to the strength. Both backers dropped to hooks, and blitzed only occasionally. And that is what totally shut down the Broncos. Offense was greatly simplified as well in the second half.

Seems to me.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

I hate to sound negative i think the team has improved in alot of areas. That being said western michigan should be a team we should blow out by half time. We wooped them at end its all good but Notre dame should be up by 20 at half time on schools like this. Although msu beat them by same amount we did. It could be I work 3rd shift and i would just like to nap at halftime once in while.

 

[irishtrain]

I am sure many of you like myself were really concerned at halftime. As we witnessed in many games today across the nation, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get players to play at a reall high level for 12 weeks straight.

Well, after 2 Qtrs of football today we were leading on the scoreboard, but losing the emotional effort battle. I liked Kelly's comments before half. He basically said that he can't play the game for them. The players had to take ownership.

So, the kids came out in the second half and did what I believe we had all been waiting to see. Could ND simply flip the switch and put its foot on a teams throat. Well, it got done today. I did not see anything that WM could do in the second half. Our D simply cranked it up. On O, we got to the runninng game and dominated. This type of effort is big.


I saw many comments today about Crist and must say that he is really struggling. I believe the guy is giving all he can, but his passing is just struggling. I will continue to be his supporter.

Go IIRISH.

This is all right on the $$$$, but my comment on this game is directed another way. As right as 'jonesman' is on his thoughts I feel I am right on this subject and want to hear what you guys think. We are eventually going to get screwed by Big East refs. I am not a conspiracy guy and not an excuse maker. This team is what it is-a young group finding its way. But is everyone here aware that if Notre Dame gets a certain bowl game it may knock Big East #2 out of that bowl-with that said do you think this team is so poorly coached that in the first half they can commit 6 penalties against none for WMU. In the second half penalties kept this game from being a SEVERE blowout. Am I imagining things or everytime a borderline call can be made it is made. I know these refs are not on the take, thats not possible but what else do you assume when the calls pile up. I am certain Kelly with all the other stuff he's trying to get right has seen the other side of the fence now and knows what he's up against. Last year he was the bellcow that everyone was hoping would carry the flag into BCS battle, now he sees the non-conference penalty decisions that follow Notre Dame. Trust me before this is over Notre Dame will lose a game because of this. 'Win big boys or its your @#$' as you get no neutral feel from any group of refs. Kelly was giving someone an earfull today in the second half and I'll bet $$$$ that he feels this now. Like I said you better leave no doubt because big money is on the line for the Big East. Call me a whinner its make no difference to me but I think I'm right.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

This is all right on the $$$$, but my comment on this game is directed another way. As right as 'jonesman' is on his thoughts I feel I am right on this subject and want to hear what you guys think. We are eventually going to get screwed by Big East refs. I am not a conspiracy guy and not an excuse maker. This team is what it is-a young group finding its way. But is everyone here aware that if Notre Dame gets a certain bowl game it may knock Big East #2 out of that bowl-with that said do you think this team is so poorly coached that in the first half they can commit 6 penalties against none for WMU. In the second half penalties kept this game from being a SEVERE blowout. Am I imagining things or everytime a borderline call can be made it is made. I know these refs are not on the take, thats not possible but what else do you assume when the calls pile up. I am certain Kelly with all the other stuff he's trying to get right has seen the other side of the fence now and knows what he's up against. Last year he was the bellcow that everyone was hoping would carry the flag into BCS battle, now he sees the non-conference penalty decisions that follow Notre Dame. Trust me before this is over Notre Dame will lose a game because of this. 'Win big boys or its your @#$' as you get no neutral feel from any group of refs. Kelly was giving someone an earfull today in the second half and I'll bet $$$$ that he feels this now. Like I said you better leave no doubt because big money is on the line for the Big East. Call me a whinner its make no difference to me but I think I'm right.

Look Notre Dame is independent we play every conference so yes will get screwed by big ten refs or whoever. We deal with it . Our lack of conference has so many advantages a bad call here and there is what we get . Guys we play 7 home games and a fan friendly Army game . Lets not leave the games in the ref's hands and we wont have to bitch about something we truly shouldn't bitch that much about anyway.

 

[irish1958]

Look Notre Dame is independent we play every conference so yes will get screwed by big ten refs or whoever. We deal with it . Our lack of conference has so many advantages a bad call here and there is what we get . Guys we play 7 home games and a fan friendly Army game . Lets not leave the games in the ref's hands and we wont have to bitch about something we truly shouldn't bitch that much about anyway.

The Michigan State game was lost because of three bad calls; we really won that game.
With parity what it is, putting away every opponent is impossible even for the very best pro teams such as Florida, Texas, Alabama, etc.
Almost every year we get screwed by the refs at least once in close games.
I would like to see the "instant replay" stop or be available for all plays, including penalties.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Here is a small contribution on the endless football-fan "discussion" about refereeing: I have a brother who played for Virginia Tech and became a "nut" of a fan. When Tech was in the Big East he never went one game without complaining about Big East refs [absolutely positive that they were not only poor but prejudiced against his team more than anyone else.] I have another brother who went to West Virginia and became a "nut". He never misses a game wherein he does not complain about Big East refs and that they are not only poor but prejudiced against his team. Now, this makes me wonder. Are Big East refs operating with an internal bias against 90% of the teams in the nation? Or are they just a poorer [less well paid?] group of average officials? Or are they OK and everybody is prejudiced about the team they are "nuts" for? I really doubt that these officials go to bed Friday nights thinking "boy I'm going to screw ND, WVU, VT,etc tomorrow. The payroll guys will reward me for that!!" [wonder who those guys would be??] Conspiracy? I WOULD be able to agree that maybe the Big East officials as a group aren't as good as some other conferences, and make more errors, but unless you drop down to High school and Junior High officiating, I've not noticed things I'd call deliberate screwing of certain teams. Bad calls yes. Unbalanced--some games--that's statistical. My random opinion. Sorry if it spoils anyone's fun. Just jump over this post and go to the next one, I'll never know I've gotten rejection.

 

[NDinL.A.]

No, Old Man you are absolutely correct, EVERY TEAM'S FANS BELIEVE THEY ARE GETTING THE SHAFT BY THE REFS. (Of course, only ND's fans are correct!!!) Go read a USC board after a loss...they truly believe that the refs have been out to get them since 2000 and have stat after stat after stat to prove it.

Watching the game with my buddies yesterday, we all believed that these refs had never been on national TV, had never been in a stadium as large and as full and as hallowed; basically had never been in a game of this magnitude. We said this BEFORE the game, predicting that the inevitable screw job was coming. And it came. It was like they were making sh!t up as they went along. And there were times that they were anticipating calls and were too quick to pull their flags out. It was a complete joke.

Alas, this is what happens when you are independent and don't have your own refs. The ONLY argument for me in favor of joining a conference that I agree with is having our refs. Then again, we'd still probably complain like every other schol that there is a conspiracy against us. (Only we'd be right!!!)

 

[Dizzyphil]

After last year's Michigan debacle, I had asked some of the Div.II refs what they thought about bias towards some teams and in particular continuous bad calls in certain games. All three had pretty much the same answer, "if a referee grows up disliking a team, their calls could reflect it". One of my customers in Oxford MS is a referee of the NFL and he said the same thing in different words. He said not only could it be the fact that a referee dislikes the team, it could also be the coach and the dislike may not be from history,.. it could be something the coach or coaching staff says before or during the early stages of the game. I believe this to be true because working an NAIA game last week, the head coach looked straight at me and the line judge said, " you guys must be blind, 59 is lining up in the neutral zone every play, f*cking blind -****s.... about halfway through the third quarter during a timeout he was irate asking Don how he missed a call and Don looked at the coach and said, " I'm blind remember?? you should know that you told me in the first quarter coach" and the guy was clearly offside.

I still work High School games and NAIA games. I am discussing with my wife whether or not to move to Division III. High School and NAIA are much easier to do because coach really have to watch their language and the way the talk to refs because they can be suspended much easier than Div III and up. Not that it would bother me but, I enjoy ref'ing and one thing I must say about the refs I know in Div III and up most have said if not for the money they would stick to Div III and lower.

 

[NDinMich]

I'm going to try to steer this conversation back to where it was going initially...ND turning their hats around and fllipping the switch. Enough with the tin foil hat talk about why referees hate (fill in the blank) team.

Over the last 10 years, over 3 head coaches, the one thing I thought was the most lacking on ND teams was the ability to make halftime adjustments. Maybe I'm biased after growing up watching Lou Holtz coached teams win game after game in the second half but it seemed to me that with Bob Davie, Ty, & Weis they never made great adjustments at the half. Davie and Ty may have tried but unsuccessfully. CW probably never tried to make them b/c he is so arrogant and believed his system would eventually win out.

I think it's a positive sign that this team can look relatively lackluster in the first half and then come out in the 2nd half with a fire under their rears and shut down a good MAC team. I do believe the first team D didn't allow any points in the second half.

Thoughts or shall we discuss why ESPN hates ND???

 

[Dizzyphil]

I'm going to try to steer this conversation back to where it was going initially...ND turning their hats around and fllipping the switch. Enough with the tin foil hat talk about why referees hate (fill in the blank) team.

Sorry we messed up the thread for you Newby. We will try to stay on topic for you from now on....

BTW, welcome to IE


Diz

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

After last year's Michigan debacle, I had asked some of the Div.II refs what they thought about bias towards some teams and in particular continuous bad calls in certain games. All three had pretty much the same answer, "if a referee grows up disliking a team, their calls could reflect it". One of my customers in Oxford MS is a referee of the NFL and he said the same thing in different words. He said not only could it be the fact that a referee dislikes the team, it could also be the coach and the dislike may not be from history,.. it could be something the coach or coaching staff says before or during the early stages of the game. I believe this to be true because working an NAIA game last week, the head coach looked straight at me and the line judge said, " you guys must be blind, 59 is lining up in the neutral zone every play, f*cking blind -****s.... about halfway through the third quarter during a timeout he was irate asking Don how he missed a call and Don looked at the coach and said, " I'm blind remember?? you should know that you told me in the first quarter coach" and the guy was clearly offside.

I still work High School games and NAIA games. I am discussing with my wife whether or not to move to Division III. High School and NAIA are much easier to do because coach really have to watch their language and the way the talk to refs because they can be suspended much easier than Div III and up. Not that it would bother me but, I enjoy ref'ing and one thing I must say about the refs I know in Div III and up most have said if not for the money they would stick to Div III and lower.

IrishJayHawk, are you reading this?

Nice insight Diz.

Peckerhead.

 

[Dizzyphil]

IrishJayHawk, are you reading this?

Nice insight Diz.

Peckerhead.

This is strictly my observations as a referee, fan, and former athlete. This is not to say that I have seen calls in favor of the Irish and have said, "whoa, we got away with that one or, we should have been called for that" Refs are human and miss things - everyone can agree with that. It is the passion of Irish fans (in this forum) wanting to win and having a forum to express our opinions and tired of losing, that sometimes we rant against the refs. Some games, like last year's Michigan game are obvious, especially to those from the recliner seeing the whole field and at different angles, than of those on the filed with limited vision of a single play or a handful of players. Not defending the refs of any game; some calls are based on the view and the discretion of a particular referee. Just like any team, referees work in teams as well and there usually is a 'pre-game' conference between the refs and we discuss what each will focus on what the head-referee expects from each ref within the crew and what to watch for.

Diz

 

[Old Man Mike]

To Dizzyphil: Thank you VERY much. This is what I wait and hope for on the discussions on this board---people who are actually involved with the real world of football, and can give us the concrete stuff. Please continue to give us the Referee's perspective on these matters---really means something to me.

 

[NDinMich]

All right, since we're not talking about football, I'll join the referee bashing/defending.

I'm in Southeast Michigan so unfortunately UM games are on TV all the time here. I firmly believe UM tells referees at home games to scrutinize the opposing team after they score a TD in hopes of an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. Remember Golden Tate putting one finger to his mouth after scoring a late TD last year to shush the crowd and getting a 15 yd penalty in the process? Same thing happened last week against MSU when MSU scored a TD in the second half (might have been Caper). Yesterday, after the ND game had ended or was on a commercial, I flipped to the Iowa/UM game...Iowa scored a pretty important TD on a slant pass from about 20 yds out. After the receiver scored, the back judge followed him (RAN WITH HIM) along the back of the endzone (while his teammates came to celebrate with him) all the way to the opposite sideline where the receiver gave the ball to the side judge who then followed the player until he left the endzone and was done celebrating with his team. Luckily for Iowa, the player didn't do the unthinkable and put his fore-finger to his mouth.

What is the difference between a qb quieting the crowd down by lowering 2 arms before he goes under center or a defender raising two arms before the snap? I've been to UM stadium and the fans really don't need any help being quiet there.

 

[Dizzyphil]

All right, since we're not talking about football, I'll join the referee bashing/defending.

I'm in Southeast Michigan so unfortunately UM games are on TV all the time here. I firmly believe UM tells referees at home games to scrutinize the opposing team after they score a TD in hopes of an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. Remember Golden Tate putting one finger to his mouth after scoring a late TD last year to shush the crowd and getting a 15 yd penalty in the process? Same thing happened last week against MSU when MSU scored a TD in the second half (might have been Caper). Yesterday, after the ND game had ended or was on a commercial, I flipped to the Iowa/UM game...Iowa scored a pretty important TD on a slant pass from about 20 yds out. After the receiver scored, the back judge followed him (RAN WITH HIM) along the back of the endzone (while his teammates came to celebrate with him) all the way to the opposite sideline where the receiver gave the ball to the side judge who then followed the player until he left the endzone and was done celebrating with his team. Luckily for Iowa, the player didn't do the unthinkable and put his fore-finger to his mouth.

What is the difference between a qb quieting the crowd down by lowering 2 arms before he goes under center or a defender raising two arms before the snap? I've been to UM stadium and the fans really don't need any help being quiet there.

See, it will be okay.... LOL

Brother, it just depends.... as simple as that. There are some rules I believe to be 'dumb' if you will, like some celebrating rules. If the celebration is with teammates and contained, I don't do a thing unless they take too long but then I just let 'em know, "okay guys, wrap it up, got a game to play..." I think the problem with some refs is the difference between celebrating and taunting. I will say this though, I think 'excessive celebration' rule is BS. I don't know every players personality; how am I supposed to know how someone's personality is dynamic versus one's personality that is kept???? Around 78% of college football players - at any level- are below the age of 20... i.e. KIDS!!!!!!

Diz

 

[irishtrain]

Maybe I should not have brought this up, I'll just keep it to myself from now on. I really wasnt saying Big East refs were on the take. I understand the team concept of the ref crews from playing in the major leagues. I will tell you the some umpires did not like some teams/players. I will wait to see what the rest of the season shows but most certainly will not start this again. Kelly knows more about this than me as he is in the eye of the storm. I'm just watching on TV. With my concessions to this board on staying quiet ( and I will ) something just seems amiss to me.

 

[Dizzyphil]

Maybe I should not have brought this up, I'll just keep it to myself from now on. I really wasnt saying Big East refs were on the take. I understand the team concept of the ref crews from playing in the major leagues. I will tell you the some umpires did not like some teams/players. I will wait to see what the rest of the season shows but most certainly will not start this again. Kelly knows more about this than me as he is in the eye of the storm. I'm just watching on TV. With my concessions to this board on staying quiet ( and I will ) something just seems amiss to me.

No man, it's a forum - for discussion. Take it off your chest. I don't think anyone was implying that you were thinking that at all. It's all about perception. I don't like the Dallas Cowboys because my Grandfather and Dad couldn't stand them when I was a kid. I love Notre Dame because it was the first football game my Grandfather took me too and he hated Alabama. Some don't like refs because we don't like the calls they make... perceptions.

The refs CAN be wrong and trust me, they know that.


Diz

 

[irishtrain]

No man, it's a forum - for discussion. Take it off your chest. I don't think anyone was implying that you were thinking that at all. It's all about perception. I don't like the Dallas Cowboys because my Grandfather and Dad couldn't stand them when I was a kid. I love Notre Dame because it was the first football game my Grandfather took me too and he hated Alabama. Some don't like refs because we don't like the calls they make... perceptions.

The refs CAN be wrong and trust me, they know that.


Diz

Thanks man , as we all know complaining about calls when you lose is for losers. Do better and eliminate all doubt. Like the coach said in Remember The Titans-'leave no doubt'.

 

[Dizzyphil]

Thanks man , as we all know complaining about calls when you lose is for losers. Do better and eliminate all doubt. Like the coach said in Remember The Titans-'leave no doubt'.

Exactly my friend. If we were winning games by two or three touchdowns it would be, "did you see that crazy call in the second half", but we aren't. We are losing by two or three points and losing has been regular so it's, "if the refs didn't suck, we would be winning". Of course this is not verbatim but, it's the thought process. And trust me, many feel it because we have gone through three different GOOD coaches in the past 6 years and have talent; only one thing left to blame I guess.

Diz

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Update

I just rewatched some of the first half of yesterday's game. D didn't blitz as much as I initially thought, and Dayne didn't look all that bad either. Interesting to rewatch a game with a different focus.

I really didn't notice any bad calls by the refs, except for the curious no call against ND when ND ran into the receiver on the punt. I suppose the ref thought the defender was pushed into the receiver. Who knows.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Update

I just rewatched some of the first half of yesterday's game. D didn't blitz as much as I initially thought, and Dayne didn't look all that bad either. Interesting to rewatch a game with a different focus.

I really didn't notice any bad calls by the refs, except for the curious no call against ND when ND ran into the receiver on the punt. I suppose the ref thought the defender was pushed into the receiver. Who knows.

What about the offensive pass interference call?

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

What about the offensive pass interference call?

(I posted this on another thread...)

As I type this, I have the game frozen on the play. No one was near TJ. TV angle does not show when flag was thrown. No ND receivers touched anyone. It is what I have been saying - anytime in the last few years that ND gets momentum going...the refs jump in to nullify it. This is a classic example. I really wish ND would call out these refs and ask for proof and accountability. That call was a complete sham.

Any insight Diz?