On building mosques and burning Qur'ans

[IrishinSyria]

First of all, if you haven't watched the "Cartoon Wars" episodes of South Park do it. Now. Are you back? Uncanny, wasn't it? The extreme overreaction, the use of fear, the emergency meetings...if I wasn't convinced the creators of South Park were brilliant before (I was) the matter is now settled.

Whole thread except for this ^^^ was a bad idea. Reasonable people can definitely disagree on these things. Rest has been redacted.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Let me stop you right there. 99% of people agree that both are offensive, but that both should not be banned by the government. I don't think any more discussion is necessary on a football forum.

 

[IrishMoore1]

I think the problem is people fear what they don't know. Many Americans up in arms about this probably know nothing about Islam. They believe Islam is equivalent to terrorism. I'm just so embarrassed how ignorant people can be.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think the problem is people fear what they don't know. Many Americans up in arms about this probably know nothing about Islam. They believe Islam is equivalent to terrorism. I'm just so embarrassed how ignorant people can be.

this is such crap... people know what Islam is dude... no one I have heard from on any platform agrees with burning religous texts but hey people can piss on a crucifix and call it art, they can burn the bible and the American flag as a means of expression, and yes it does happen... that's freedom of expression and unfortunately some people go there... that type of expression is never an issue until some special interest group that some politican can take advantage of is the one getting hit... like now.

as far as ground zero... anyone who thinks that's in good taste and is "building bridges" between Islam and America as a whole should have their head examined... no one is here saying don't build a big mosque, but they are still pulling bodies out of ground zero to this day and like it or not those attacks were in fact carried out in the name of Islam (despite what certain politicans and supporters seem to all of a sudden believe)... if the people behind this mosque gave two shits about building bridges they would never in a million years consider that location... not that hard to understand... the funding of this thing is an issue too.. where does this group come up with 100 million when their last tax records show they barely had enough capital to buy a Honda Civic... again not hard to figure out... phobias have nothing to do with it...

in fact the only people who are really getting streotyped and hit with phobias are common Americans who don't understand why the rest of us can't see the problem here.

The preacher form Florida is a moron... jsut like the guy who pissed on the cross and called it art... but again, few people stood up for Catholics when that happened so spare me.

 

[Anchorman]

this is such crap... people know what Islam is dude... no one I have heard from on any platform agrees with burning religous texts but hey people can piss on a crucifix and call it art, they can burn the bible and the American flag as a means of expression, and yes it does happen... that's freedom of expression and unfortunately some people go there... that type of expression is never an issue until some special interest group that some politican can take advantage of is the one getting hit... like now.

as far as ground zero... anyone who thinks that's in good taste and is "building bridges" between Islam and America as a whole should have their head examined... no one is here saying don't build a big mosque, but they are still pulling bodies out of ground zero to this day and like it or not those attacks were in fact carried out in the name of Islam (despite what certain politicans and supporters seem to all of a sudden believe)... if the people behind this mosque gave two shits about building bridges they would never in a million years consider that location... not that hard to understand... the funding of this thing is an issue too.. where does this group come up with 100 million when their last tax records show they barely had enough capital to buy a Honda Civic... again not hard to figure out... phobias have nothing to do with it...

in fact the only people who are really getting streotyped and hit with phobias are common Americans who don't understand why the rest of us can't see the problem here.

The preacher form Florida is a moron... jsut like the guy who pissed on the cross and called it art... but again, few people stood up for Catholics when that happened so spare me.

Sources on the financials and the bodies?

First off, they're not still pulling bodies from ground zero. They're building a building there. Secondly, its not at ground zero. Its three and a half blocks away. If you've ever lived in a city, you know thats a very solid distance.

 

[mgriff]

There is freedom of religion, assembly, and property in America. That mosque can go wherever they want it. Laws don't get to be interpreted differently because of a few events, which actually pale in comparison to the harm America has inflicted abroad since that day. America has committed 100 9/11s in the Middle East since that time. 4,000 American deaths, a tragedy, does not justify our actions in the last nine years. 9/11 served to reallocate tax dollars to fund the military industrial complex, give unprecedented credence to aggressive invasions, and curtail freedoms on the home front in the name of "national security" and keeping us safe from the boogeyman, "terrorists".

As for 9/11, I'll believe that it was an "attack in the name of Islam," when I see an adequate investigation done. The farce that is the 9/11 Commission Report does no one justice.

 

[ACamp1900]

Wow.... really?? So we should have done nothing in response... terrorists don't exist and 9/11 wasn't terrorism, in fact it was some guys joy riding into building in the name of cupcakes... or maybe you think Bush blew up the buildings... according to what you just posted it wouldn't suprise me...

shameful, I'm beside myself over your post man....

 

[ACamp1900]

also, no the mosque can't go where ever they want it... no religon can jsut pop up buildings where ever they please... religious buildings get no-gos all the time in this country... nowhere does it say you have the right to build a house of worship where ever you want... unreal that people talk on this matter and point fingers at others as if they are backwards yet they don't even seem to know that simple fact about this country. This is not a religious rights issue.

 

[mgriff]

You absolutely don't have to agree with anything I say or even read it, for that matter. As for being shameful, I've served my country in every capacity it has asked of me, so I can say whatever and interpret events however I want. I have read the 9/11 Commission Report and countless others dealing with the events of that day, since it has radically charted the course for my life. So before you come to tell me I'm incompetent or shameful, I suggest you read some sources dealing with the subject. My claims are not unfounded and supported by academic minds and leaders in their fields. I'm not going along with the words of some 18 year old kid who wants to make a website. Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001 There you go. Read it if you want. Don't if you don't.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Ok, I promised myself that I'd made a mistake and I wouldn't get back into this but...

1) There's no reason to believe that the Al-Qaeda 9/11 version is false.
2) Invading Afghanistan was the correct choice of action when the Taliban refused to turn over bin-Laden.
3) Once the Taliban was overthrown, our military's attention should have stayed focused on rooting out Taliban and Al-Qaeda elements while building up a stable, democratic country.
4) Going into Iraq was an unforgivable mistake. Not because Saddam wasn't a bad guy (he was) but because he could be easily contained, served as a useful counterweight to Iranian power and, most important, because Iraq ended up being a huge drain on resources away from Afghanistan.
5) American Muslims, especially Lower Manhattan Muslims, should not be blamed for what happened on 9/11. They had nothing to do with it and probably lost friends that day, yet they have been viewed with suspicion ever since.
6) Burning the Qur'an is more offensive than burning the bible for two reasons: 1)The Bible is just the vehicle in which God's word is spread, whereas the Qur'an is the word of God itself. And 2) Its the difference between calling a white person cracker and a black person a n****er. Insults mean little when directed to people at the top of the social order, but are much more potent when they have a history of slavery or military dominance behind them.

These are my opinions. I think they are all reasonable, except for maybe the last one.

 

[IrishMoore1]

this is such crap... people know what Islam is dude... no one I have heard from on any platform agrees with burning religous texts but hey people can piss on a crucifix and call it art, they can burn the bible and the American flag as a means of expression, and yes it does happen... that's freedom of expression and unfortunately some people go there... that type of expression is never an issue until some special interest group that some politican can take advantage of is the one getting hit... like now.

as far as ground zero... anyone who thinks that's in good taste and is "building bridges" between Islam and America as a whole should have their head examined... no one is here saying don't build a big mosque, but they are still pulling bodies out of ground zero to this day and like it or not those attacks were in fact carried out in the name of Islam (despite what certain politicans and supporters seem to all of a sudden believe)... if the people behind this mosque gave two shits about building bridges they would never in a million years consider that location... not that hard to understand... the funding of this thing is an issue too.. where does this group come up with 100 million when their last tax records show they barely had enough capital to buy a Honda Civic... again not hard to figure out... phobias have nothing to do with it...

in fact the only people who are really getting streotyped and hit with phobias are common Americans who don't understand why the rest of us can't see the problem here.

The preacher form Florida is a moron... jsut like the guy who pissed on the cross and called it art... but again, few people stood up for Catholics when that happened so spare me.

Your response is exactly what I'm talking about. People don't know what Islam is. If they did, they would have no problem with the mosque. Islam is NOT terrorism. Those terrorists who committed those horrible acts on 9/11 do not represent Islam. You should educate yourself about things you don't know about before you paint a broad brush over millions of practicing Muslims.

The mosque is NOT at ground zero. It is 2 blocks away. Also, you should know that the plan for this mosque/community center has been in the works for 20 years.

In high school, I thought exactly like Acamp, but after I actually learned about Islam my views really changed. People need to know the difference between true Islam and radical terrorism in the name of a religion.

 

[ACamp1900]

I've read the 9/11 commish... since you assume otherwise obviously... it's a gov. commission, what did you expect a pulitzer?? and yes, an American who says he serves this country yet denies the existence of terrorist after the Cole, AFTER 9/11, AFTER numerous embassy bombings... and says he doesn't believe Islam was the driving factor in their actions (albeit a perversion of)... yeah I have a hard time finding another word guff...

seriously... why was 9/11 carried out and who did it?? I'd love to see you state this clearer.

 

[ACamp1900]

Your response is exactly what I'm talking about. People don't know what Islam is. If they did, they would have no problem with the mosque. Islam is NOT terrorism. Those terrorists who committed those horrible acts on 9/11 do not represent Islam. You should educate yourself about things you don't know about before you paint a broad brush over millions of practicing Muslims.

The mosque is NOT at ground zero. It is 2 blocks away. Also, you should know that the plan for this mosque/community center has been in the works for 20 years.

In high school, I thought exactly like Acamp, but after I actually learned about Islam my views really changed. People need to know the difference between true Islam and radical terrorism in the name of a religion.

You are so mind jobbed... did I say Islam is terrorism?? ANYWHERE did I even remotely make that connection??? No, you projected that on to me then got on some pulpit and talked down to me for the way you projected... I own a Quran and I have Muslim friends... I could give a shit...

9/11 was carried out in the name of that religion... that DOES NOT mean the religion is to blame nor am I attacking Muslims in general... grow up...

Look at it from this light... It's like if the KKK blew up a black church in the south killing hundreds, and then while bodies are still being found here comes some group of whites who have nothing to do with the KKK that want to build some Anglo center right next door to the church that has yet to be rebuilt... is that their right? sure? do they have anything to do with the KKK? no. Is it in good taste and the way to reach out to the Blacks who have been attacked? absolutely not. And the blacks would have every right to oppose it without being called "racists" and or "White-a-phobic"

how hard is that to understand??? Yet it's I who don't understand Islam and am ignorant...??? They say it's about building bridges... they are not doing that, that is my point and THAT is why the driving force behind the attacks is vital here... again I can't comprehend why that's hard to understand.

WAKE UP... in this very thread to only person or people who have been attached to anything is those who think the mosque is a bad idea... NOT Muslims in general attached to terrorism world wide... it's some made up argument.

and sorry this building got hit with debris from the second plane... so spare me on the point that it's nowhere near ground zero...

 

[mgriff]

I'm not arguing the existence of terrorists, only the factor in creating them was U.S. foreign policy dating back to the installation of the Shah in Iran, to our recent stationing of troops on Holy Land in Saudi Arabia. More "terrorists", or freedom fighters if they were in a western country, are created from collateral damage caused by the United States, and our occupation of Saudi Arabia. Terrorists have been an excuse for funding the military industrial complex, taking away liberty here in America for security, and the denial of the free flow of information because of "national security" interests. I know there are terrorists, I've been there. My problem is that they have been used to fundamentally alter the fabric of America since 9/11, when in reality, most of them disagree with us being in their country. Naturally, there are others who emigrate from other countries to fight, and for Islam, but that is in response to American aggression in their region of the world. You think they are sitting over there and twiddling their thumbs, hating us because we are free? No, countries abroad hate America for our actions in defiance of anyone's wishes but our own. I can't tell you for sure who carried out 9/11, but I can tell you to read this website in its entirety if you wish to get a better grasp on my views. Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001

 

[mgriff]

You are so mind jobbed... did I say Islam is terrorism?? ANYWHERE did I even remotely make that comparrispon??? No, you projected that on to me than got on some pulpit and talked down to me for the way you projected... I own a Quran and I have Muslim friends... I could give a shit...

9/11 was carried out in the name of that religion... that DOES NOT mean the religion is to blame nor am I attacking Muslims in general... grow up...

Look at it from this light... It's like if the KKK blew up a black church in the south killing hundreds, and then while bodies are still being found here comes some group of whites who have nothing to do with the KKK that want to build some Anglo center right next door to the church that has yet to be rebuilt... is that their right? sure? do they have anything to do with the KKK? no. Is it in good taste and the way to reach out to the Blacks who have been attacked? absolutely not. And the blacks would have every right to oppose it without being called "racists" and or "White-a-phobic"

how hard is that to understand??? Yet it's I who don't understand Islam and am ignorant...??? They say it's about building bridges... they are not doing that, that is my point and THAT is why the driving force behind the attacks is vital here... again I can't comprehend why that's hard to understand.

WAKE UP... in this very thread to only person or people who have been attached to anything is those who think the mosque is a bad idea... NOT Muslims in general attached to terrorism world wide... it's some made up argument.

and sorry this building got hit with debris from the seconde plane... so spare me on the point that it's nowhere near ground zero...

It's actually a few blocks away from the site. I think it is a nice distraction in the media that people are arguing over this. That way the media continues not to cover pertinent issues; only things that inflame the left/right paradigm and give us the allusion of choice.

 

[ACamp1900]

It's actually a few blocks away from the site. I think it is a nice distraction in the media that people are arguing over this. That way the media continues not to cover pertinent issues; only things that inflame the left/right paradigm and give us the allusion of choice.

correct here... although I feel it's a very unfortunate distraction from more important things... and I do feel the real story is the way people who oppose the LOCATION for very legit, non hate filled, non ignorant or fearful reasons are portrayed... to me that has become the bigger story... but it is a welcome distraction for those who don't want to mention the economoy, education, healthcare or whatever teh hell else during an election year.

as for your site... I am quite historically and politically active (i'll just leave it at that) so I am very familiar with sites and theories like it... in a nice way, I'll just leave that and your view of this nation alone...

 

[Rocket89]

Yes! International Politics debates!

I'd just like to add that many years from now, the invasion of Iraq will be looked upon much differently. As much as invading Afghanistan was the "right thing to do" and politically more acceptable around the world, the fact is, we'll never achieve anything of lasting importance there.

We could snap our fingers today and eradicate all of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and it would change very little in world politics, in our safety and building a democracy there. The only thing really is a revenge factor.

Afghanistan has been one of the most chaotic places on earth and numerous invasions have failed there over the past 4,000 years, let alone talking about establishing a democracy. It's not happening. People talk about you can't kill terrorists out of existence and it's usually used in reference to Iraq, but it's all the more true in Afghanistan.

That's why I think Iraq is the more important long-term committment. The invasion may have not felt right to a lot of people and may have had nothing to do with 9/11...but I really think if we can continue to grow their democracy, it will be a huge advantage over really eradicating the evils of terrorism.

Terrorists feed off of the anger and hopelessness of the Middle Eastern youth. That anger and hopelessness isn't going away if we kill all of the Taliban in Afghanistan and try to establish a democracy in a place that hasn't been tamed ever in the history of the world.

 

[mgriff]

Alright, fair enough, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and you don't have to read it.

 

[mgriff]

Looking at the bottom of the screen I feel like me and ACAMP had a fight at lunch, and you assholes were watching. Well, show's over!

 

[ACamp1900]

lol...


down goes Frazier.....

wait, which one is Frazier??

 

[WaveDomer]

I'm just waiting for the gay marriage debate. Or is that in another thread?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yes! International Politics debates!

We could snap our fingers today and eradicate all of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and it would change very little in world politics, in our safety and building a democracy there. The only thing really is a revenge factor.

No doubt that changing Afghanistan for the better has very little net effect...creating a power vacuum and ignoring it, on the other hand, threatens stability in not just Afghanistan but in Pakistan as well. And an unstable Pakistan is something we should all be very afraid of.

And ACamp. No doubt there are legitimate reasons to oppose the Cordoba House...but you can't deny that its attracted A LOT of racist opposition as well. I've heard it described as "a mud hut for black muslims" a "terrorist command center" and "an al-qaeda victory monument." The founder, who works for the State Department, has been accused of being in bed with both Iran and Al-Qaeda (needless to say, an absurd argument). And then there was the segment on Fox when they mentioned the funding coming from a mysterious Saudi Source...failing to mention, of course, that that source was actually their co-owner.

Like it or not, the news that makes it overseas all centers around the most inflammatory statements. And when our country is so heavily invested in a military and security strategy that involves convincing Muslims that we are their friends, those sort of statements are counterproductive at best.

 

[mgriff]

No doubt that changing Afghanistan for the better has very little net effect...creating a power vacuum and ignoring it, on the other hand, threatens stability in not just Afghanistan but in Pakistan as well. And an unstable Pakistan is something we should all be very afraid of.

And ACamp. No doubt there are legitimate reasons to oppose the Cordoba House...but you can't deny that its attracted A LOT of racist opposition as well. I've heard it described as "a mud hut for black muslims" a "terrorist command center" and "an al-qaeda victory monument." The founder, who works for the State Department, has been accused of being in bed with both Iran and Al-Qaeda (needless to say, an absurd argument). And then there was the segment on Fox when they mentioned the funding coming from a mysterious Saudi Source...failing to mention, of course, that that source was actually their co-owner.

Like it or not, the news that makes it overseas all centers around the most inflammatory statements. And when our country is so heavily invested in a military and security strategy that involves convincing Muslims that we are their friends, those sort of statements are counterproductive at best.

Well that's because our mass media is an embarrassment. Every last one of them.

 

[IrishMoore1]

You are so mind jobbed... did I say Islam is terrorism?? ANYWHERE did I even remotely make that comparrispon??? No, you projected that on to me than got on some pulpit and talked down to me for the way you projected... I own a Quran and I have Muslim friends... I could give a shit...

9/11 was carried out in the name of that religion... that DOES NOT mean the religion is to blame nor am I attacking Muslims in general... grow up...

Look at it from this light... It's like if the KKK blew up a black church in the south killing hundreds, and then while bodies are still being found here comes some group of whites who have nothing to do with the KKK that want to build some Anglo center right next door to the church that has yet to be rebuilt... is that their right? sure? do they have anything to do with the KKK? no. Is it in good taste and the way to reach out to the Blacks who have been attacked? absolutely not. And the blacks would have every right to oppose it without being called "racists" and or "White-a-phobic"

how hard is that to understand??? Yet it's I who don't understand Islam and am ignorant...??? They say it's about building bridges... they are not doing that, that is my point and THAT is why the driving force behind the attacks is vital here... again I can't comprehend why that's hard to understand.

WAKE UP... in this very thread to only person or people who have been attached to anything is those who think the mosque is a bad idea... NOT Muslims in general attached to terrorism world wide... it's some made up argument.

and sorry this building got hit with debris from the seconde plane... so spare me on the point that it's nowhere near ground zero...

I apologize if I seemed to talk down to you. Please keep the convo civil. I'm not trying to bash you so there's no need for stinging remarks.

You didn't say Islam is terrorism, but you certainly implied it. Your next comments clear up any confusion from that. I'm glad you understand that.

However, I really disagree with your KKK example: "Is it in good taste and the way to reach out to the Blacks who have been attacked? absolutely not. And the blacks would have every right to oppose it without being called "racists" and or "White-a-phobic"

I am a person of color and I believe there is absolutely no problem if people are willing to communicate with each other and recognize that a separate entity of people did a terrible act. Race or religion should have nothing to do with whether or not a group of people can move next door. I would expect something like your example to happen 20+ years ago, but not today. If blacks were to be vehemently against a church that happens to contain white membership, then that to me means that blacks view KKK violence as connected to all white people simply because of the color of their skin, which is wrong.

The same applies to this mosque situation. Recognize that a separate entity of people committed 9/11. If we are not willing to sit down at a table of brotherhood and talk to each other, we will all remain binded by our fears and mistrust.

Since you bring up race, I recall Martin Luther King saying he had a dream that one day "the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood."

So why can't we do the same here? Why don't we use this opportunity to talk to and learn about the Muslim community and bridge our differences.

 

[Maddog77]

I recommend a mod lock this thread and the people who want to continue can go to pm's.

 

[mgriff]

I recommend a mod lock this thread and the people who want to continue can go to pm's.

I think everyone has been civil. There have already been a few mods in here viewing while ACAMP and myself were chatting.

 

[GDomer09]

Oh, how people forget the camera's going from the WTC building tragedy to Afghanastan, Pakistan, & most islam country's. Just to see 1000s burning the American Flag & cheering on the fact that our country was just "ATTACKED". Let's not forget Osama's video messages as well.

Here's a few verses from the Quran......

Make war on the infidels who dwell around you.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

War is ordained by Allah.

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.


At IrishSyria
6) Burning the Qur'an is more offensive than burning the bible for two reasons: 1)The Bible is just the vehicle in which God's word is spread, whereas the Qur'an is the word of God itself. And 2) Its the difference between calling a white person cracker and a black person a n****er. Insults mean little when directed to people at the top of the social order, but are much more potent when they have a history of slavery or military dominance behind them.
^^^^IN YOUR OPINION - THIS IS ONLY TRUE IF ISLAM IS YOUR RELIGON^^^^

 

[ACamp1900]

If we are not willing to sit down at a table of brotherhood and talk to each other, we will all remain binded by our fears and mistrust.

Since you bring up race, I recall Martin Luther King saying he had a dream that one day "the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood."

So why can't we do the same here? Why don't we use this opportunity to talk to and learn about the Muslim community and bridge our differences.

Please explain to me how the group behind this mosque, who refuse to condem Hamas, who chastised this nation days after 9/11 and who now have said things along the lines of anyone who disagrees with this mosque is an Islamophobe is willing to sit down at any table of brotherhood... Toleracne and understanding GOES BOTH WAYS... unfortunately in this country, far too many people believe it's a one way street.

No one on the side of "they should move the thing" has painted Muslims as terrorsits or projected sterotypes on them... but plenty have been thrown from the other side, and plenty of hate filled mindsets have been projected at people before they even can't a chance to speak... as you did with me...

that's some great bridge building and table setting there...

again if togetherness was the issue... they'd have taken Bloomberg up on his offer to move it to the other side of Manhattan or where ever... and then bridges would have been built

 

[mgriff]

Oh, how people forget the camera's going from the WTC building tragedy to Afghanastan, Pakistan, & most islam country's. Just to see 1000s burning the American Flag & cheering on the fact that our country was just "ATTACKED". Let's not forget Osama's video messages as well.

Here's a few verses from the Quran......

Make war on the infidels who dwell around you.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

War is ordained by Allah.

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.


At IrishSyria
6) Burning the Qur'an is more offensive than burning the bible for two reasons: 1)The Bible is just the vehicle in which God's word is spread, whereas the Qur'an is the word of God itself. And 2) Its the difference between calling a white person cracker and a black person a n****er. Insults mean little when directed to people at the top of the social order, but are much more potent when they have a history of slavery or military dominance behind them.
^^^^IN YOUR OPINION - THIS IS ONLY TRUE IF ISLAM IS YOUR RELIGON^^^^

Osama's video messages?

That doesn't look like the same guy, at all. Swiss institute brands latest bin Laden tape a fake - smh.com.au

 

[Maddog77]

It appears that only a couple of people are engaged in this discussion and it really doesn't belong on a Notre Dame football board imo, so I would appreciate it if you guys could take it to pm's.