Question on the Floyd fumble

[IrishinSyria]

So, Floyd catches the ball, takes a few steps with possession, and loses the ball. So far, I'm on board: it's a fumble. My question is about what happens next; looking at the replay, it appears that #45 on Purdue pulls Floyd down from behind after he loses the football; should this have been a penalty??? In other words, in a loose ball situation does the rulebook go out the window or is it possible to be called for holding?

 

[military_irish]

if it is a foul, then it is rarely enforced because it always happens in fumble situations

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I believe once the ball is fumbled, it is a live situation and pretty much anything goes. There is no holding, interference..etc

 

[IrishinSyria]

I looked it up, and as far as I can tell it falls into the "Bush Push" category: a rule so obscure that it is never called. I have no idea what the appropriate penalty would be, as the infraction had a direct effect on the change of possession.

According to Rule 9, section 3, Article 6 of the NCAA rulebook:

ARTICLE 6. When the ball is loose, no player shall hold an opponent; illegally block an opponent in the back; twist, turn or pull an opponent’s face mask or any helmet opening; or illegally use his hands or commit a personal foul (A.R. 7-3-9-II).
PENALTY—10 or 15 yards (Exception: Penalties for these Team A fouls behind the neutral zone are enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s goal line) (Rule 10-2) [S38, S42, S43 or S45].

 

[jason_h537]

That happens on every funble though. We did it when Marve appeared to fumble on the KLM recovery.

 

[IrishinSyria]

That happens on every funble though. We did it when Marve appeared to fumble on the KLM recovery.

I don't disagree that it would be a stretch to have called it, but this one seemed like a blatant take down.

For what its worth, I looked at the KLM recovery and if anything, it was Purdue who could have gotten called again. Kerry Neal got absolutely flattened by the Purdue O-tackle, though that was a clear football play (two hands to the front).

This is the video I've been using: Marve's non-fumble starts at 1:44 and Floyds comes in at 2:20.

YouTube - notre dame vs purdue 2010

edit: on a side note, the videos worth watching just to watch #68 on Purdue's hustle when he realizes what's happening. He rag-dolls Neal and then makes a hugely athletic dive for such a big guy and barely misses KLM.

 

[mrmiller8]

I can't be holding because no one is in control of the ball, it can't be clipping, It could be a horsecollar.....most likely the only call that would ever be made would be unnecessary roughness...but nothing will ever called in those situations....

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

On the Floyd fumble, I'm not so sure the Purdue guy was aware of a fumble and was probably still trying to make a tackle. Incidentally, I questioned whether Floyd actually had full possession long enough for it to be called a fumble rather than an incomplete pass. It happened too quickly in real time. I have the game on now, so I will check it out soon.

Side note: Does anyone remember the play when Crist kept it up the middle and plowed over the Purdue backer (Carlino)? It was at 11:33 of the 3rd quarter. After Crist plows him over, he sits on the backers face for a moment with his hands outstretched. The backer is flat on his back with Dayne's nuts in his face, and he is desperately trying to push him off. Even after Dayne gets up and walks away, the backer tries to get after him, but his own teammate takes a swipe at him to back him off. It is a classic pic. I have it frozen on the TV right now. I wish some comp tech wiz would post that shot. Would make a great poster. Hilarious. If you have the game recorded, go to 11:33 of the 3rd quarter.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I can't be holding because no one is in control of the ball, it can't be clipping, It could be a horsecollar.....most likely the only call that would ever be made would be unnecessary roughness...but nothing will ever called in those situations....

yea, that was my feeling: it wasn't a penalty not because it was legal, but rather because it wasn't illegal. What was the ref going to call, 5 yards for tackling?

 

[NDinL.A.]

That happens on every funble though. We did it when Marve appeared to fumble on the KLM recovery.

Thing is, this was blatant. I was thinking the same exact thing as Syria when I watched the replay yesterday, and I watched it over and over just to make sure I didn't sound foolish if/when I started a thread on it.

The ONLY rationalization i can come up with, Syria, for not calling a penalty, was this: The guy who tackled Floyd as he was going after the fumble, was the same guy who originally tried to tackle Floyd. He got rolled over, and it is conceivable that he didn't know whether FLoyd had been tackled or not, so when he saw Floyd running he MIGHT have thought he was going for the TD, not for a fumble. It's quite conceivable that he didn't know Floyd had fumbled, the way he got rolled over.

Like I said, I looked at it a lot of times, and I can see his defense of "I thought he hadn't been tackled yet, and I was just trying to prevent a TD."

On the other hand, yes, usually anything goes, but it was so blatant I could see the ref throwing a flag in that situation. So I guess I can see both sides of the situation.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Side note: Does anyone remember the play when Crist kept it up the middle and plowed over the Purdue backer? It was at 11:33 of the 3rd quarter. After Crist plows him over, he sits on the backers face for a moment with his hands outstretched. It is a classic pic. I have it frozen on the TV right now. I wish some comp tech wiz would post that shot. Would make a great poster. Hilarious. If you have the game recorded, go to 11:33 of the 3rd quarter.

Yea, I don't know how long the TV cameras kept on it, but it was a goofy moment live. Crist kept his hands up for what seemed like a good 10 seconds.

 

[jason_h537]

Side note: Does anyone remember the play when Crist kept it up the middle and plowed over the Purdue backer (Carlino)? It was at 11:33 of the 3rd quarter. After Crist plows him over, he sits on the backers face for a moment with his hands outstretched. The backer is flat on his back with Dayne's nuts in his face, and he is desperately trying to push him off. Even after Dayne gets up and walks away, the backer tries to get after him, but his own teammate takes a swipe at him to back him off. It is a classic pic. I have it frozen on the TV right now. I wish some comp tech wiz would post that shot. Would make a great poster. Hilarious. If you have the game recorded, go to 11:33 of the 3rd quarter.

I thought he was doing it just to be a dick. I found it hilarious but id be pissed if someone did it to us.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Like I said, I looked at it a lot of times, and I can see his defense of "I thought he hadn't been tackled yet, and I was just trying to prevent a TD."

On the other hand, yes, usually anything goes, but it was so blatant I could see the ref throwing a flag in that situation. So I guess I can see both sides of the situation.

I definitely agree that its conceivable the guy didn't know Floyd had fumbled. But I don't think that's a good defense. For example, back in the Ty era when USC used to routinely sit on our faces, they had a fake punt that they pulled out one time when they were already up by 20+ points and the game was over. It went like this: run everything exactly like a normal punt, only have your punter throw the ball up instead of kick it. There was no effort to complete a pass, but it worked every time. Why? Because the guys responsible for blocking the punt coverage guys would have no idea that it wasn't a real punt and would turn around and try to block their man, drawing an automatic pass interference. It was the most weaselly exploitation of the rules I'd ever seen, and it made me hate Pretty Pete. But it worked, because ignorance of the ball is no excuse for committing a penalty.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I thought he was doing it just to be a dick. I found it hilarious but id be pissed if someone did it to us.

He wasn't being a dick. He was trying to get up, but another Purdue backer was behind him and pushed Dayne forward onto Carlino's face. Dayne was trying to get out of there but he was kind of sandwiched.

 

[IrishinSyria]

He wasn't being a dick. He was trying to get up, but another Purdue backer was behind him and pushed Dayne forward. Dayne was trying to get out of there but he was kind of sandwiched.

But then he kind of liiiiiingered. At least, that's what it looked like when I saw it.

 

[jason_h537]

But then he kind of liiiiiingered. At least, that's what it looked like when I saw it.

he lingered for a while just rubbing his nuts on the guys face, it was funny

 

[mrmiller8]

yea, that was my feeling: it wasn't a penalty not because it was legal, but rather because it wasn't illegal. What was the ref going to call, 5 yards for tackling?

Yeah there really isn't anything that he can do....other than say its not church league basketball.....its football....Now I would have been pissed if Floyd would have gotten hurt....hahahah but thats my double standard....

 

[TDHeysus]

I dont know about any rules(I know there are) but during a fumble everyone is in a mad dash to get the ball, anyone who sees the fumble is instantly yelling BALL!. if you stick out because you arent going for the ball, or overtly stopping someone else from going for the ball you are gonna stick out and get a penalty.

But when there is a fumble the utmost thing on every players mind is getting the ball, not necessarily stopping the other guy from getting it. If you are trying to stop the other guy from getting the ball, then you have already concluded that you are not getting the fumble, and you will stick out from the refs point of view and your gonna get a call. A trip, a tackle, a hold...these are gonna get flagged. but if you are both running for the ball and there is some 'jockeying for position' that will almost never get called (unless you grab someones finger and break it or something like that)

I think the play call was a good no-call

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

But then he kind of liiiiiingered. At least, that's what it looked like when I saw it.

Nah. I've got the play on right now. It looked like he lingered, but the backer behind him was lying on Crist's left leg, and the backer's weight was pushing Crist forward. Carlino's face and arms were trying to push Crist backward. Crist got up as soon as the backer got off of his leg.

 

[IrishinSyria]

A trip, a tackle, a hold...these are gonna get flagged. but if you are both running for the ball and there is some 'jockeying for position' that will almost never get called (unless you grab someones finger and break it or something like that)

I think the play call was a good no-call

? There was no "jockeying for position" there was a tackle.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Nah. I've got the play on right now. It looked like he lingered, but the backer behind him was lying on Crist's left leg, and the backer's weight was pushing Crist forward. Carlino's face and arms were trying to push Crist backward. Crist got up as soon as the backer got off of his leg.

Fair enough. But doesn't change the larger point that you're absolutely right: Crist mid-teabag would be an unbelievable picture. Maybe even The Shirt worthy.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

? There was no "jockeying for position" there was a tackle.

OK. I have finally seen both plays on replay.

No way any ref anywhere at any level would have thrown a flag in either situation.

The Purdue fumble that was overturned: The Purdue lineman had stopped, then started forward when he saw the ball loose. When he started his charge, Kerry Neal was on the ground, then popped up in the lineman's path. Nothing the lineman could do to avoid contact.

On the Floyd fumble, I am convinced #45 did not know there was a fumble. Floyd's body blocked his view of the ball rolling away. He went to tackle Floyd assuming he still had the ball, and you can sense he realizes the ball is loose once Floyd is almost down. We're talking fractions of a second here.

 

[WabashFalcon]

As a coach, I have never seen that rule enforced. Anything short of a shanking is good to go.

 

[BGIF]

...

Side note: Does anyone remember the play when Crist kept it up the middle and plowed over the Purdue backer (Carlino)? It was at 11:33 of the 3rd quarter. After Crist plows him over, he sits on the backers face for a moment with his hands outstretched. The backer is flat on his back with Dayne's nuts in his face, and he is desperately trying to push him off. Even after Dayne gets up and walks away, the backer tries to get after him, but his own teammate takes a swipe at him to back him off. It is a classic pic. I have it frozen on the TV right now. I wish some comp tech wiz would post that shot. Would make a great poster. Hilarious. If you have the game recorded, go to 11:33 of the 3rd quarter.

It struck me that Crist was trying actually trying to avoid an unsportsmanship penalty when they got entangled. Ball carriers sometimes get rough up in a pile with a twisted arm, leg, or gouged and when they react, they get the flag. The ref doesn't see the foul but see the ball carrier reacting aggressively after the play and flags him.

Crist did end up on top and he put his arms out like he was trying to maintain a ride on a bucking bronc. I think he was actually throwing his arms out to show he wasn't being aggressive. They were intertwined and he was signaling, "hey the play's over. I'm not drawing a flag for fighting, see my hands refs. I'm a nonaggressor!" Finally it was Carlino that bucked to get him off.

After that play, I believe NBC ran a clip from last year of Crist throwing a block on the same guy and leveling him. For all our criticisim of NBC coverage, I thought knowing about their previous run-in and having it ready to go with the background was a vast improvement over NBC's past coverage.

 

[tankjeep]

I looked it up, and as far as I can tell it falls into the "Bush Push" category: a rule so obscure that it is never called. I have no idea what the appropriate penalty would be, as the infraction had a direct effect on the change of possession.

According to Rule 9, section 3, Article 6 of the NCAA rulebook:

good catch cuz i thought if there was no clear indication of possession that it was no holds barred.