Academic requirements and on-field success

[Merlin]

Regardless of who our HC is next year, do you think anyone can make a difference with the same academic requirements in place, as we have now?

I remember hearing rumblings in the press regarding Meyer's previous interveiw (pre-Florida) that he wanted to, "dumb down" those req's, when the powers that be decided not to, he left for the swamp.
Meyer took the Florida job in December 2004 when he could have taken his "dream job" (his words) at Notre Dame? Meyer knew he could win more easily at Florida. Winning consistently in college football is tough enough without having to fight the admissions office at every turn.

Another popular knock on Weis is that while he has recruited well, he hasn't developed those players, that (IMO) is a misconception. Recruiting gurus say Weis recruits well because, for years, players had stars added in front of their names because Notre Dame was recruiting them. But let's look at the actual players who showed up on campus. Yes, Weis has brought in receivers Michael Floyd and Golden Tate and quarterback Jimmy Clausen, but how many of Notre Dame's other recruits would start for a perennial top-10 program?

The best recruiting year for Weis should have been 2006. He had just come off a 10-3 season, he had just signed a monster contract extension and he could easily dismiss the Fiesta Bowl loss to Ohio State as a fluke. Rivals.com loved his class, ranking it No. 8. That's one spot ahead of an Oklahoma class that included quarterback Sam Bradford, tailback Demarco Murray, tight end Jermaine Gresham, defensive tackle Gerald McCoy defensive end Jeremy Beal and offensive tackle Trent Williams. Meanwhile, Florida (Rivals.com No. 2) signed a class headlined by quarterback Tim Tebow, receiver Percy Harvin and linebacker Brandon Spikes. Alabama (Rivals.com No. 11), signed offensive tackle Andre Smith, cornerback Javier Arenas and strong safety Justin Woodall.

Weis probably would have loved to sign any of those players from the other schools, but most of them probably weren't on Notre Dame's board, because they wouldn't have been admitted. Of the players listed, only Oklahoma's McCoy seriously considered Notre Dame.

Harvard, Princeton and Yale dominated college football in the early 20th century, but those schools de-emphasized the game because leaders felt cutthroat recruiting would undermine their academic mission. Army was a power at one time, too, but the U.S. Military Academy also has a loftier purpose than winning football games.

I think we will have to accept the fact that the decision to keep academic standards high has made for a middle-of-the-pack football team at best, unfortunatly IMO, it doesn't look like things are going to get better any time soon..........

Unless?

Something needs to change in Southbend, and I don't just mean the HC, our program is fundamentally flawed in regards to recruiting, at least in comparison with elite teams in the NCAA.

I'm proud of what we do academically, we have the money, we have the facility's, but we don't have a competitive program, and unfortunately, unless changes are made, I doubt we ever will.

We need to forget, "stirring the echo's" and get back to the here and now, at least if we want to have a competitive program again.

 

[Jason Pham]

While a valid concern, some of the points you bring up, I feel, need to be qualified.

Winning is very likely easier to do given lower academic standards. Yet you see teams such as Stanford, whose standards of admissions seem to me, from perusing the reported test scores and grades of their recruits, higher than those at Notre Dame, and even Notre Dame itself showing flashes of their abililty to compete with college football's elite. So while, I agree that a lower standard of admissions is one way of increasing on-field success, I don't know that it could not be done otherwise.

Regarding our recruits receiving accolades for the mere fact of them being our recruits, it has been shown that our recruits tend to drop in their rankings once committed to the program. I could be misreading the trends but much has been made about the notion that the talent of Notre Dame commits are more often than not downplayed by ranking services and the media.

On the same thread, a better gauge of a recruit's talents, I think, is his offer list. Those who signed with the Irish with high rankings were always courted with official offers by other top-flight programs. Jimmy, Golden, and Floyd aside. Our starting offensive line boasts offers from the likes of USC, Florida, Oklahoma, and LSU. Our stable of running backs hold offers from Florida, Georgia, Ohio State. Defensively, a point of concern for the Irish, our starting defensive lines have letters from Texas, Alabama, Florida, USC; our linebackers from USC, Tennessee, Florida, and Georgia; and our defensive backs from Georgia, Michigan, Florida, and Ohio State. While it may not be clear that these recruits would have been more successful at these other programs, it seems that our players could have played for some of the top teams in the nation.

I tend to agree with the thought that the likes of Stoops, Meyer, or Carroll could have succeeded at a much higher level with our current players than has the current administration, despite our higher, though not by a substantial margin (i.e. Stanford), standards of admission.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I kinda noticed that some of the current ND athletes were injured in high school (some serious injuries) and maybe would not have received a scholly anywhere else. Am I wrong? (Not trying to stir the pot, but that "fact" caught my attention reading some posts on here...)

 

[dskoo65]

i honestly believe there should be enough talent at ND right now to be better (especially on defense). i think player development is perhaps the biggest component of being a college head coach.

if some of these highly ranked classes arent paying dividends, either a)the scouts vastly overrated their talent or b)they have not been "coached up" to their full potential once arriving on campus. i think its more of the latter.

 

[Master Guns]

The academic question is always a point of contention. At some point it has to be looked at. Maybe the admin should ask the previous coaches here what role did it play in ND's current plight and down trend since Lou's last years. I think many coaches think it is too hard to win here. Hopefully the next guy can change that and hopefully if it is a Stoops or Meyer some consideration be given, if they were to ask.

 

[irish1958]

There is also a major problem which we can never overcome, and that is the junior college transfer. Say you don't have a nose tackle, or he is hurt in Spring practice. Solution: search the JC ranks and get some moron to fill the hole, have him take 6 hours of basket weaving and your problem is solved.
The powers that be should make it a requirement for the JC transfer to complete one full year of academics on a degree path before he becomes eligible.

 

[Merlin]

While a valid concern, some of the points you bring up, I feel, need to be qualified.

Winning is very likely easier to do given lower academic standards. Yet you see teams such as Stanford, whose standards of admissions seem to me, from perusing the reported test scores and grades of their recruits, higher than those at Notre Dame, and even Notre Dame itself showing flashes of their abililty to compete with college football's elite. So while, I agree that a lower standard of admissions is one way of increasing on-field success, I don't know that it could not be done otherwise.

You've kinda made my point, Stanford have only had ONE WINNING SEASON since/including 2002, and thats this year.

Obviously it's possible to make the odd Bowl game once in a blue moon, but is it enough to keep NBC in the fold, is it good enough for the "powers that be," or even you or I for that matter?
Even Herb on college gameday asked, "why Notre Dame?, what have they done in the last 20 odd years" regarding the hype/coverage that we receive every year?

 

[dskoo65]

You've kinda made my point, Stanford have only had ONE WINNING SEASON since/including 2002, and thats this year.

Obviously it's possible to make the odd Bowl game once in a blue moon

Harbaugh didnt take over until after the 2006 season (1-11). the previous regime made a mess of the program. harbaugh is working on his second strong recruiting class. they return a freshman QB and their entire offensive line (which is already very good). 8-4 against their schedule 3 years after they were in the toilet indicates to me an upward trend under their current coach. IF harbaugh stays there i expect them to be more than a middling team who grabs a bowl every 3 years. they will be able to run and pass effectively on many teams next year. much like ND, to reach a higher level, the D must get better.

 

[Merlin]

Harbaugh didnt take over until after the 2006 season (1-11). the previous regime made a mess of the program. harbaugh is working on his second strong recruiting class. they return a freshman QB and their entire offensive line (which is already very good). 8-4 against their schedule 3 years after they were in the toilet indicates to me an upward trend under their current coach. IF harbaugh stays there i expect them to be more than a middling team who grabs a bowl every 3 years. they will be able to run and pass effectively on many teams next year. much like ND, to reach a higher level, the D must get better.

Much like ND eh?

I guess your agreeing with me then

 

[jason_h537]

ND's academic requirements are tough but not impossible. Many elite players qualify for ND. Our standerds are lower than Stanfords and the ivy league schools your originally mentioned.

The idea that our players get rated higher because of Notre Dame is nonsense. That may be true for one site, but if you look around there is concensus to thier ratings and their offer lists tend to agree with the ratings as well.

To say its our standards that have dropped us is an excuse. We can recruit and we can compete with our current standards. We may not be able to get certian players (adrian peterson, bryce brown), but the top 2 players this year could have ended up at ND. I belioeve the school allows Weis to enrol 2-3 borderline guys as long as they can get their SAT's up.

Nuetered made a point about injuries. Armando Allen had offers from USC, Florida, and so on until he broke his ankle. Many schools shy away fromplayers when they get hurt. Also kids who get hurt begin to realize the importance of education.

The problem with the team is not talent. we can play with the best of them. Defensively we may be short on playmakers but we have talent. A good coach can turn this team around next year and continue the recruiting trend that Weis started.

 

[IrishAddiction]

We have missed out on ONE legit play maker due to academics since CW's tenure here that i can remember..... that being Mr. Jonathan Baldwin, a guy who, IMO, helped Pitt win over us the past two seasons.

It does suck at times, but at the same point, it is a great selling point to ND recruits and their parents. They get to know they are making a 40 year decision that is a wise one.

Neutered is right, but many of those recruits have offers and then drop off like Jason said. Some just dont receive them because of injuries. I suppose how big of a recruit they are factors in, as with a guy like Anthony Barr being injured, he is a big time recruit, i dont think programs have slacked off him.

The programs that do drop off of recruits after they are injured, they maybe right to do so if they think it would hurt their program.

AA has been on the injured list many times this year, alot from the same ankle injury being aggravated. Ragone has really only started playing this year due to injuries. Ethan Johnson didnt play his whole senior season it seemed, but than again he has worked out pretty well for us.

 

[jason_h537]

Ethan Johnson would have been a five star if healthy, as would Barr. I dont know if Barr's recruitment has stalled because he is so quite about it but USC never really made a push for him. Florida tried later but has backed off. UCLA was the only school that really made an effort with him.

As for Baldwin or Benn. I will take Tate and Floyd over them any day

 

[TinyT]

Once players sign on the dotted line for ND, does anyone think that the rigor of the academics keeps them from having the time to develop more thoroughly on the football side? If classes are that much harder than most schools it would stand to reason that their would be less time for optional extra work thus slowing down progress.

 

[dskoo65]

Much like ND eh?

I guess your agreeing with me then

no. i meant they wouldnt fall backward to become a middling team. they have already moved beyond that and showing signs there are even bettter years to come. 8-4 against one of the toughest schedules in the country is not like ND, and this only 3 years removed from an uncompetitive 1-11 team is a turnaround that hasnt come close to happening at ND. Harbaugh, unlike weis, has started targeting recruits specifically relentlessly to build their defense and i am confident he will do so.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

Can somebody quantify the "academic standards" for ND?

That that term is thrown around all of the time but not many people know what they are. Is it a 3.5 and 1400 SAT's? I think ND lower's their standards a little bit for football players. Im thinking 3.0 GPA and 1000-1100 SATs.

Does anybody know? or if the team is allowed a set number per recruiting class below the required academic threshold?

 

[dskoo65]

Can somebody quantify the "academic standards" for ND?

That that term is thrown around all of the time but not many people know what they are. Is it a 3.5 and 1400 SAT's? I think ND lower's their standards a little bit for football players. Im thinking 3.0 GPA and 1000-1100 SATs.

Does anybody know? or if the team is allowed a set number per recruiting class below the required academic threshold?

i can answer that..............pi r2.............nevermind, different question

 

[Merlin]

So.....if we can recruit with, "the best of them" as some have suggested here, is it a simple case of hiring poor HC's?

Do we think that those HC's then bring in poor staff to coach our team, has this been the problem since 97?

If we can recruit certain individuals who are rated 4/5 star recruits, do we have the depth on the bench?

In regards to Harbaugh and Stanford, they've had a great season, but one season doesn't make it an elite program. If Hbaugh was/is the reason behind the incredible upswing, look no further than CW's first two years, their are no guarantees?

 

[Merlin]

I'm expecting there'll be a Nov. 30 in our near future - possibly in the year 2013 but probably 2014 - when Notre Dame will need to search for another new coach and I'll need to recycle these words.

When it comes time to replace the guy who's replacing Charlie Weis, fired on Monday after posting a 35-27 record in five years, ND's athletic director du jour will trot out three time-honored themes for the media:

1) The football program wasn't making quite enough progress to satisfy anyone. Remember, college football is Notre Dame and Notre Dame is college football.

2) While we didn't win enough on the field, we dominated in the classroom. Cheer, cheer for old GPA!

3) The next guy will lead us back to the top. I can feel it!

Don't take my word for this. Take Kevin White's. Here's the former Irish AD after Tyrone Willingham's reign ended on Nov. 30, 2004:

"We just weren't, I don't think, manufacturing the momentum, the progress, we felt we needed to have to move this program back to the elite. That's not a negotiable position at Notre Dame. Football is very important to this institution...and competing at the highest level is of the utmost importance."

Now, here's current AD Jack Swarbrick on Monday after firing Weis:

"As we go out now and begin our search, that is our focus, in finding the right individual to lead Notre Dame back to a place of prominence in college football. The University is better when we do that, college football is better when we do that, and the student-athletes who call this place home are better when we do that."

Now for Talking Point No. 2. Mr. White, your turn again:

"From Sunday to Friday, our football program has exceeded all expectations in every way. Academic performance is at a fever pitch. It's never been better. Tyrone has done some wonderful things."

Et tu, Mr. Swarbrick?

"You know, Charlie did win a National Championship; he won a National Championship when his football program finished first in graduation success rate this year, and that is an important contribution and one which we value very highly."

Will Weis get a ring for this national championship? His players? His coaches? And did it save his job?

But we digress. On to Talking Point No. 3. Just for fun, let's throw a curve and go with a White quote from the day he fired Bob Davie. Officially it happened on Dec. 2, 2001, but I believe in my heart White did it on Nov. 30.

"Can we win a 12th (national title)?" White said. "I believe we can. I believe we can win at the highest level."

Hmmm. Take one guess as to Swarbrick's opinion, considering he weaved the dry spells experienced by the New York Yankees and Boston Celtics and Dallas Cowboys into his answer.

"This is a drought," he said, "and I have every confidence that we will end the drought and succeed spectacularly."

I have every reason to feel sorry for the coach who must try to fulfill these delusions.

Daily Herald | Notre Dame in need of less talk, more reality

I knew Swarbricks presser sounded familiar.

 

[theShark]

So, Merlin, are you really saying you believe we can't win a NC???

I will follow my team no matter what, but what is the point of watching if you have nooo hope of competing? I agree with you that i pity the new coaching hire, very tough job, but i have to believe that we will win again.

LSU went something like 43 yrs. between NC's, Tennessee 35 yrs. or so. It can be done, with a little patience and a good coaching hire not based off of personality but potential and character.

 

[77domer]

no. i meant they wouldnt fall backward to become a middling team. they have already moved beyond that and showing signs there are even bettter years to come. 8-4 against one of the toughest schedules in the country is not like ND, and this only 3 years removed from an uncompetitive 1-11 team is a turnaround that hasnt come close to happening at ND. Harbaugh, unlike weis, has started targeting recruits specifically relentlessly to build their defense and i am confident he will do so.

Expectations at ND are not those at Stanford either, where an 8-4 season this year (including a loss to Cal) will get Harbaugh a contract extension. Mike and Mike had this radio conversation today. Another point made somewhere was that inability to take JUCOs combined with ND's admission standards might cost us 1 or 2 studs per year. Over 5 years (the typical length of college stay) that's up to 10 quality players we don't have compared to SEC teams or USC.

Given that, the argument is that we should be happy with an 8-4 year and less p#$%d about a 6-6 year.

It's an argument I reject based on the quality players we've had the last two years. I argue instead that coaching talent is rarer than athletic talent.

 

[77domer]

So, Merlin, are you really saying you believe we can't win a NC???

I will follow my team no matter what, but what is the point of watching if you have nooo hope of competing? I agree with you that i pity the new coaching hire, very tough job, but i have to believe that we will win again.

LSU went something like 43 yrs. between NC's, Tennessee 35 yrs. or so. It can be done, with a little patience and a good coaching hire not based off of personality but potential and character.

If someone can bring Alabama back from the nearly dead, someone can do it for us.

 

[Merlin]

So, Merlin, are you really saying you believe we can't win a NC???

I will follow my team no matter what, but what is the point of watching if you have nooo hope of competing? I agree with you that i pity the new coaching hire, very tough job, but i have to believe that we will win again.

LSU went something like 43 yrs. between NC's, Tennessee 35 yrs. or so. It can be done, with a little patience and a good coaching hire not based off of personality but potential and character.

I'm not saying we can't win a NC again, but if we have to wait 43 years to do it, I'll probably be eating lunch through a straw or have a drip in my arm, I'll be 88 by then, and chances are I won't remember who I support anyway

I want to believe, but right now, I can't see the wood for the tree's so to speak.

Truth is, regardless of whether we do or not, I'll bleed Blue and Gold till the day I kick'it.

Or for as long as I can remember.......

 

[phgreek]

Can somebody quantify the "academic standards" for ND?

That that term is thrown around all of the time but not many people know what they are. Is it a 3.5 and 1400 SAT's? I think ND lower's their standards a little bit for football players. Im thinking 3.0 GPA and 1000-1100 SATs.

Does anybody know? or if the team is allowed a set number per recruiting class below the required academic threshold?

Yea...I'd really like to know what the hell we are talking about here. prop 48 now says 700 SAT +2.5 GPA as entry criteria (and now allow a tradeoff between the two measures). So do we take prop 48 approach as baseline, and ratchet it up...if so how far.

As wel, once they are in, what grades are good enough to stay...ie what is the post entry benchmark?

Somebody...anybody...Bueler?

 

[jason_h537]

Yea...I'd really like to know what the hell we are talking about here. prop 48 now says 700 SAT +2.5 GPA as entry criteria (and now allow a tradeoff between the two measures). So do we take prop 48 approach as baseline, and ratchet it up...if so how far.

As wel, once they are in, what grades are good enough to stay...ie what is the post entry benchmark?

Somebody...anybody...Bueler?

I think this thread is for people who do not follow recruiting and think ND cant compete because of their standards

 

[phgreek]

I think this thread is for people who do not follow recruiting and think ND cant compete because of their standards

...OR people who do follow recruiting, and hear the academic standards thing, and would just like it definitized a little...

For instance I especially love the issue where the guy at work asks you, just what are those standards, and you you go uhm, uh, well, uhm, ya know....

enough about my motivations...Data PLEASE

 

[dskoo65]

i think that ND can design schedules that will at least give them a chance at getting to a NC game, at least i think that was the idea behind next years schedule.