Change we can believe in

ACamp1900

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He never said this...sorry...urban legend.


lol... GW and faith obviously had an odd "thing" going on... but you could say "urban legend" for about 90% of what he or any other the others said or didn't say in this day and age...

"Give me liver and tea before my death." -- Patrick Henry in response long lines at the buffet.
 
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no.1IrishFan

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LOL....I wasnt aware that you and Washington were such good chums LMI. Being that you have the authority to speak for him and all.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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LOL....I wasnt aware that you and Washington were such good chums LMI. Being that you have the authority to speak for him and all.

I have a degree in history and I do my research. Just because some people post crap on the Net does not make it true. If you dig around you will find where it has been disproven.

I never said I spoke for him, but I am not going to accept when fake quotations are used.

People make up all kind of BS things that the Founders said. They do it to further their own agendas.

To this day, it's unclear whether or not Washington was Christian. He clearly believed in some form of God, but it's not at all clear he was Christian.
 

fortwayne_nd

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I have a degree in history and I do my research. Just because some people post crap on the Net does not make it true. If you dig around you will find where it has been disproven.

I never said I spoke for him, but I am not going to accept when fake quotations are used.

People make up all kind of BS things that the Founders said. They do it to further their own agendas.

To this day, it's unclear whether or not Washington was Christian. He clearly believed in some form of God, but it's not at all clear he was Christian.


We live in an age of unprecedented access to information yet are less knowledgeable about key issues than past generations. A lack of intellectual curiosity and easy lifestyles are contributing factors.
 

fortwayne_nd

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Actually, the idea of a fair and speedy trial was not a value they believed only American's should get...they firmly believed and strove for it as a fundamental value across all societies.

I never said they have US rights if they are not on US soil. HOWEVER, as they have been captured by the US (justly or not) they deserve a fair trial. We know for a FACT that some of the guys we held for years were not combatants, but were of the wrong tribe...

Terrorists deserve punishment that goes without saying. However, in the US we punish people AFTER we try them. That's why we are America and not Iran.


I heard a conversation with an ex-CIA agent on the radio a few years ago about the Gitmo issue. He thought in the future the military/CIA would extract information from captives while in the field and then execute them. Would eliminate the need for camps and prevent combatants returning to the field of battle. I guess that is one option.
 

fortwayne_nd

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No easy lifestyle, but I agree with quick access to information.

I meant comparatively. As in American lifestyle compared to the lives of those in many societies in Africa, Asia, South and Central America. Hell, even Mexico. There are 300 million Chinese who make less than a dollar a day. Wonder if they have the latest X-Box or Play Station? iPhone? Garmin GPS?
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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I heard a conversation with an ex-CIA agent on the radio a few years ago about the Gitmo issue. He thought in the future the military/CIA would extract information from captives while in the field and then execute them. Would eliminate the need for camps and prevent combatants returning to the field of battle. I guess that is one option.

They've done it before. It's not like we were doing this 9 years ago. Indefinite detention is something we have rarely done...

The last time I remember anything like this happening was in the 40's
Japanese American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

no.1IrishFan

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I have a degree in history and I do my research. Just because some people post crap on the Net does not make it true. If you dig around you will find where it has been disproven.

I never said I spoke for him, but I am not going to accept when fake quotations are used.

People make up all kind of BS things that the Founders said. They do it to further their own agendas.

To this day, it's unclear whether or not Washington was Christian. He clearly believed in some form of God, but it's not at all clear he was Christian.

Congradulations on the degree!
Still doesnt mean he didnt say it.
I could honestly give two shits either way, but to say you can prove or disprove what that man said years ago based on your studies and internet info is a little silly.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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It's "Congratulations."


G.W. did in fact have a silly hair style. :)
 
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LOVEMYIRISH

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Congradulations on the degree!
Still doesnt mean he didnt say it.
I could honestly give two shits either way, but to say you can prove or disprove what that man said years ago based on your studies and internet info is a little silly.

When someone makes a claim that something happened it behooves them to prove it happened. I know my Washington pretty well being a fan of him...and he was very sparing with commentary on religion. Knowing that it's unlikely he was a Christian, this quote stands out as terribly out of character.

If you have proof that he said it, fine. But to disprove something that did not happen is almost impossible. It's like saying "I think a comet passed over head last night and disappeared in a puff of smoke." When asked to prove it, you would not have any visual sightings, nor would you have any physical evidence. In fact, you would only be able to say "Well, I thought it did. But I bet you can't disprove me!"

The fact is that if you look around you will find people who have disproven this by going through his writings. There are plenty of people who think he said it, but that's because it's an internet viral e-mail that got it started.
 

IrishAlum1997

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"Martha, that ass is TOOOOOOOOO SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!"

-George Washington
7:42 pm, April 17, 1782
He was laying down under the cherry tree, semi-aroused. Saw him myself.
 

no.1IrishFan

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When someone makes a claim that something happened it behooves them to prove it happened. I know my Washington pretty well being a fan of him...and he was very sparing with commentary on religion. Knowing that it's unlikely he was a Christian, this quote stands out as terribly out of character.

If you have proof that he said it, fine. But to disprove something that did not happen is almost impossible. It's like saying "I think a comet passed over head last night and disappeared in a puff of smoke." When asked to prove it, you would not have any visual sightings, nor would you have any physical evidence. In fact, you would only be able to say "Well, I thought it did. But I bet you can't disprove me!"

The fact is that if you look around you will find people who have disproven this by going through his writings. There are plenty of people who think he said it, but that's because it's an internet viral e-mail that got it started.
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Nope...sorry. People going thru his writtings still doesnt disprove it. Again I really dont care either way if he said it or not. Its just funny that all of your info is right on, and if anyone else has info that contradicts yours its always incorrect, bias or in this case an internet viral e-mail. Just to reinstate my previous point, to say that this info that is for it or against it is proof either way is silly. I have said and done things that some of my closest friends probably wouldn't be aware of. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I honestly don't think you really believe that there is proof either way, I just think you have to be right.
 
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LOVEMYIRISH

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Nope...sorry. People going thru his writtings still doesnt disprove it. Again I really dont care either way if he said it or not. Its just funny that all of your info is right on, and if anyone else has info that contradicts yours its always incorrect, bias or in this case an internet viral e-mail. Just to reinstate my previous point, to say that this info that is for it or against it is proof either way is silly. I have said and done things that some of my closest friends probably wouldn't be aware of. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I honestly don't think you really believe that there is proof either way, I just think you have to be right.

Honestly, that's the stupidest reasoning I have ever heard. When Washingtonian scholars can find no record of him saying it...that's all there is too it. It's not like some guy sending an internet e-mail has discovered something they didn't.

UNLESS Washington sent in an e-mail before he died?

The man's papers have been public domain for over 200 years. To think that in all that time no researcher has found it, but someone sending an e-mail with an agenda suddenly has....BUT REFUSES TO IDENTIFY WHERE...that's just crazy talk.
 

no.1IrishFan

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Honestly, that's the stupidest reasoning I have ever heard. When Washingtonian scholars can find no record of him saying it...that's all there is too it. It's not like some guy sending an internet e-mail has discovered something they didn't.

UNLESS Washington sent in an e-mail before he died?

The man's papers have been public domain for over 200 years. To think that in all that time no researcher has found it, but someone sending an e-mail with an agenda suddenly has....BUT REFUSES TO IDENTIFY WHERE...that's just crazy talk.

Im sorry that my reasonoing is so stupid to you, maybe i can explain it a little better. You can no more prove that he didn't say it, than I can that he did. Not having it on a written record is not proof that he didnt say it. Supporting evidence maybe, but not proof.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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Im sorry that my reasonoing is so stupid to you, maybe i can explain it a little better. You can no more prove that he didn't say it, than I can that he did. Not having it on a written record is not proof that he didnt say it. Supporting evidence maybe, but not proof.

In order to prove something happened, you need to PROVE IT HAPPENED. Since all the writings, speeches, letters, and discussions of Washington are public...and in NONE of those has this quotation come up...then it's fair to say it was made up.

I can no more prove the NON-EXISTENCE of this quotation than you can prove the NON-EXISTENCE of Santa or the Easter bunny.
 

no.1IrishFan

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In order to prove something happened, you need to PROVE IT HAPPENED. Since all the writings, speeches, letters, and discussions of Washington are public...and in NONE of those has this quotation come up...then it's fair to say it was made up.

I can no more prove the NON-EXISTENCE of this quotation than you can prove the NON-EXISTENCE of Santa or the Easter bunny.

Thats exactly the point I have been trying to make.

You told ACamp : "He never said this...sorry...urban legend".

Even though we have resources that probably point against him saying this, you really have no proof. So why make a statement that you really cant back up.

As far as Santa and the Easter bunny goes you are spot on. The difference is that I would never get into a debate with someone who thought they were real. Wanna know why? Because even though I may know that they dont exist I CANT PROVE IT!

Remember what Denzel Washington said in Training Day, "Its not what you know, its what you can prove".

My argument has never been that he did say it, in all honesty I dont think he did.
I just think that to tell someone that it was never said and that it is an urban legend is reaching a bit far considering there is no proof. I would have not even originaly responded if you had not been so "matter of fact" about it. There doesnt always have to be a definitive answer to everything, sometimes we just chose to believe what we chose to believe. With or without proof. If you think he didnt say it then he didnt, who am I to tell you any different. Especially with no proof.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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Thats exactly the point I have been trying to make.

You told ACamp : "He never said this...sorry...urban legend".

Even though we have resources that probably point against him saying this, you really have no proof. So why make a statement that you really cant back up.

Actually, I have found sources that have searched for this and not found it (found a nice UNC site talking about this)...I will try to dig it up again.

That being said, I indicated that he did not say it...and no one can provide a reference that he did. Because it did not happen.

As far as Santa and the Easter bunny goes you are spot on. The difference is that I would never get into a debate with someone who thought they were real. Wanna know why? Because even though I may know that they dont exist I CANT PROVE IT!

Remember what Denzel Washington said in Training Day, "Its not what you know, its what you can prove".

My argument has never been that he did say it, in all honesty I dont think he did.
I just think that to tell someone that it was never said and that it is an urban legend is reaching a bit far considering there is no proof. I would have not even originaly responded if you had not been so "matter of fact" about it. There doesnt always have to be a definitive answer to everything, sometimes we just chose to believe what we chose to believe. With or without proof. If you think he didnt say it then he didnt, who am I to tell you any different. Especially with no proof.
Again, you are asking someone to prove that something did not happen...when the burden of proof resides with the person making the claim that it did happen.

My proof is that no one can find the quotation being used anywhere. If he said it, then it would be easy to find.
 

IrishAlum1997

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It's one nation under GOD, Borat O-bum-a, you communist pig.

Not a Christian nation. Bow to your Saudi king!
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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It's one nation under GOD, Borat O-bum-a, you communist pig.

Not a Christian nation. Bow to your Saudi king!

One nation under God SINCE 1954. Pre-1954 it was a SOCIALIST PLEDGE...hahahahaha

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
 

ACamp1900

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It's one nation under GOD, Borat O-bum-a, you communist pig.

Not a Christian nation. Bow to your Saudi king!

Beat me to it, I can not believe he said that... I find it hard to support him in any way... and what "idealists" fail to get through their thick heads is that forcing Christians to publicly spit on their own beliefs is NOT "justice for all"... its justice for the Godless (or at very least the anit- Christian)... the same Godless who since the early 1960s have destroyed our moral compass, wrekced the American family, continue to point the finger at Christians for being too firm and inflexable and then turn right around and flaten other peoples beliefs with their own... some "ideals"

Obviously Obama and his staff does not care about "all"... just "his"
 
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