Will Notre Dame ever shine again?

[redsox4441]

I have been a die hard Notre Dame fan all my life and I have never seen a good Notre Dame team like the 1988 team. I am really starting to doubt Notre Dame and I am really starting to question if Notre Dame will ever have another year like it. Do you guys think Notre Dame will ever be that great again in the next 5 years? Again, I would really like to hear your guys' opinions on this topic. Thanks

 

[Dacian_Irish]

Yes and this is why.

I know it hasn't been pretty but every program has bad years.

Recruiting in the last couple of years have brought a lot of talented players (3 top ten classes). I know many of you say that they are not being developed... Well I disagree!

Remember at one point Charlie was a high school and college coach. If he wasn't good at DEVELOPMENT.... Bill Parcel's would have never hired him! So I'm sure he knows what he is doing.

The players are learning but they are young. I keep stressing this because everyone thinks that we should be 10-0 every year. yes that would be nice but lets be realistic.. You CAN"T do it with 19 and 20 yr old guys..Especially when the other team(BC) has 23yr old 5th yr seniors at every other position.

Notre Dame is relevent and always will be.

I can't wait until next year when the team is finally stacked from fr to sr's and we have legitimate depth at every postion..

 

[ARALOU]

I have been a die hard Notre Dame fan all my life and I have never seen a good Notre Dame team like the 1988 team. I am really starting to doubt Notre Dame and I am really starting to question if Notre Dame will ever have another year like it. Do you guys think Notre Dame will ever be that great again in the next 5 years? Again, I would really like to hear your guys' opinions on this topic. Thanks

Yes I think so. The 88 team was great and won a NC. I also enjoyed watching the early nineties teams. The 93 team was basicly a 40 something yard field goal (kicked by friggen BC) away from a NC. They gave the NC to Florida St. and ND beat the hell out of FSU that year. I think ND had 7 all americans on the 93 team. They had 4, I think, on the 88 team. I also think the 93 team had the #1 toughest schedule in the country.
Finshed with one loss. All of those early ninety teams were really good.

 

[Stalking_Eagle]

This topic is exhausting.

 

[Dacian_Irish]

Why does everyone forget that Saban came into an easy situation. Alabama has been recruiting well for the last 5yrs. They were 6-6 last and they were also 6-6 in 2006. So quit talking about Saban.. He is not Irish and never will be. Charlie loves this team and works very hard and will bring this team back...!

 

[kmoose]

I have been a die hard Notre Dame fan all my life and I have never seen a good Notre Dame team like the 1988 team. I am really starting to doubt Notre Dame and I am really starting to question if Notre Dame will ever have another year like it. Do you guys think Notre Dame will ever be that great again in the next 5 years? Again, I would really like to hear your guys' opinions on this topic. Thanks

ND has the potential to be a very good team, in the next 5 years. I highly doubt that they will be as dominant as the '88 National Championship team, though. LB Ned Bolcar was a 2nd team All American in 1987, and he wasn't good enough to start in '88. This team has a good nucleus on offense (Clausen, Tate, Floyd), and the defense has made some significant strides from last year. People seem to think that the coaching staff is incompetent, but one only need to look at the progress of Golden Tate, from last year to this year, to see that there is at least *some* good coaching going on. Last year, Tate could run only a fly pattern with any success. This year, he has turned into a very good receiver. Perhaps unpolished, but still a very good receiver. This is certainly not to say that they *will* be a very good team, in the next 5 years. Lots of things have to fall into place, for that to happen. They have to continue to recruit well, and probably even improve their recruiting, in terms of seperating the "true" talent from the over inflated hype. Even though their defense is improved, it's got to get much better. If they want to play with the big boys, and win, they are going to have to be able to just stop someone, sooner or later. And, finally, the coaching is going to have to improve, as well. Will all of those things fall into place? Who knows. I'm not trying to be vague, satan'sredsox guy, but seriously, who knows? Things change so much, year to year. Cierre Woods might end up being the cog that makes this offense a juggernaut. Or he might end up being a mediocre tailback. They have the potential, though.

 

[gairish]

will notre dame shine again

will notre dame shine again

Saban is only good for Saban he would not fit at ND. The team he inherited was a great team waiting to happen, thats why he went there, he knew they were good. The same thing will happen if or when Charlie leaves, the shelves are stocked with talent and a coach who Gets It will win and win Big. Like I have said before Charlie is to be admired for his efforts. Recruiting and bringing dignity back to the program are his contributions. But as a coach who has a team prepared to win on game day by having his team ready to break the other teams will, he has failed. Saban told the interviewer those very words before the game against Miss ST-in so many words- you must break the will to win of the other team. We are the ones who's will cracks first- can you imagine that ever happening under the watch of past successful coaches? I defend Charlie the man, Charlie the recruiter, Charlie who gets all the personal anti- ND crap, but I cant defend Charlie the coach. All around the country teams touch a rock, trot out an alligator, pet a steer, stroke a saddle and its all a copy of a humble sign that says PLAY LIKE A CHAMPION TODAY. The coach at Notre Dame must have the ability to motivate his players to that level. In the pros its a given and not even necessary to discuss. When everyone you play considers it a privelage to try and beat your *&%#@ you must match that and take it one step further. Dont you remember how at first the fan based thought Lou's teams played on the edge until it was understood thats how you win, Over the summer I told a friend that the most important game in the last 10 yrs of Notre Dame football was the SD St game because it would show if we were prepared to blast a team we should dominate. You know the outcome and the season has flowed from that game. Now the most important game of '09 is Nov 29 2008 in the Colesium, the '09 season ( good or bad ) will flow from that game.

 

[ACamp1900]

I have been a die hard Notre Dame fan all my life and I have never seen a good Notre Dame team like the 1988 team. I am really starting to doubt Notre Dame and I am really starting to question if Notre Dame will ever have another year like it. Do you guys think Notre Dame will ever be that great again in the next 5 years? Again, I would really like to hear your guys' opinions on this topic. Thanks

I say this, YES it sucks right now, it is always darkest before dawn and we have a TON of haters out there who feel it too. I honestly believe that is one reason why the negative press has gotten worse and worse and worse over the last four years... they're getting their shots in while they can.

also, Bama was down, SC was down Texas was a dead program 15 or so years back... IT HAPPENS... just four years ago we were a goal line stand away from the national title game... so obviously the pundits are full of shit with the "it has all passed ND by forever' crap...

stay the course ND fans, it may get a tad darker still but we WILL win a national title again sooner than later, it's just the way wheel works

 

[SteveM]

ACamp has a Crystal Ball

ACamp has a Crystal Ball

I say this, YES it sucks right now, it is always darkest before dawn and we have a TON of haters out there who feel it too. I honestly believe that is one reason why the negative press has gotten worse and worse and worse over the last four years... they're getting their shots in while they can.

also, Bama was down, SC was down Texas was a dead program 15 or so years back... IT HAPPENS... just four years ago we were a goal line stand away from the national title game... so obviously the pundits are full of shit with the "it has all passed ND by forever' crap...

stay the course ND fans, it may get a tad darker still but we WILL win a national title again sooner than later, it's just the way wheel works

ACamp is spot on. ND will come back for sure. The rest is details.

Below is the ND record for the Joe Kuharich to Ara transition:

1959 Joe Kuharich 5- 5
1960 Joe Kuharich 2- 8
1961 Joe Kuharich 5- 5
1962 Joe Kuharich 5- 5
1963 Hugh Devore 2- 7
1964 Ara Parseghian 9- 1
1965 Ara Parseghian 7-2-1
1966 Ara Parseghian *9-0-1
1967 Ara Parseghian 8- 2
1968 Ara Parseghian 7-2-1
1969 Ara Parseghian 8-2-1 Cotton (L) Texas, 21-17
1970 Ara Parseghian 10- 1 Cotton (W) Texas, 24-11

I don't think Charlie is Ara (He's more like Kuharich). But "Ara II" is out there somewhere...

SteveM

 

[Junkhead]

I say this, YES it sucks right now, it is always darkest before dawn and we have a TON of haters out there who feel it too. I honestly believe that is one reason why the negative press has gotten worse and worse and worse over the last four years... they're getting their shots in while they can.

also, Bama was down, SC was down Texas was a dead program 15 or so years back... IT HAPPENS... just four years ago we were a goal line stand away from the national title game... so obviously the pundits are full of shit with the "it has all passed ND by forever' crap...

stay the course ND fans, it may get a tad darker still but we WILL win a national title again sooner than later, it's just the way wheel works

I hope you are right! It gets tiring as a fan to have to actually battle with the Navy's and armPitt's of the college football world!

 

[scoutgod]

Notre Dame is relevent and always will be.

Schedule weak and stumble through... impresses no one. Washington AND Washington State next year? Staggering.

Army Football used to matter too. It still has tradition without the expectation of winning.

But the rest of the football world, sans NBC, has moved on. Harsh but true.

ND is under 60% winning percentage in the last eleven years. That winning percentage ranks 43rd in Div I. That is in the middle third!... beneath such powerhouses as ... Toledo....Air Force.... Marshall.........

The bowl game record is so horrible because the tie-ins allow Chambers of Commerce to ensure high hotel occupancy, which invariably sets up a mismatch. Can't really hold a mismatch against them. so.... relevant? That is what Notre Dame is aiming for? To stay "relevant"? Notre Dame's rivals aim to win major conference championships and compete for BCS Championships. I don't hear Trojan faithful boasting of eternal relevance.

 

[scoutgod]

I don't think Charlie is Ara (He's more like Kuharich). But "Ara II" is out there somewhere...

SteveM

SO what do you do about the 10 year contract? Too big to eat it.... insert CW joke here.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I have been a die hard Notre Dame fan all my life and I have never seen a good Notre Dame team like the 1988 team. I am really starting to doubt Notre Dame and I am really starting to question if Notre Dame will ever have another year like it. Do you guys think Notre Dame will ever be that great again in the next 5 years? Again, I would really like to hear your guys' opinions on this topic. Thanks

Yes Papa. We will win again. We already doing it.

 

[scoutgod]

Yes Papa. We will win again. We already doing it.

This is exactly why no one takes ND or her fans seriously. Winning? What this year? Beating whom exactly? Any winning records aside from a decent service academy?

 

[SoCalDomer]

This is exactly why no one takes ND or her fans seriously. Winning? What this year? Beating whom exactly? Any winning records aside from a decent service academy?

None besides Navy. so what? was ND supposed to win a NC this year? A BCS bowl? if anyone had those expectations, they are based in desire not reality.

Read a post of mine earlier of how long it took a similarly situated Miami team in the late 90s to climb out of a hole. for them it was years 5, 6 and 7 before they returned to a winning record, then a bowl game, then a NC in year 8. In year 4, all of their wins (only 5 that year) were against teams with losing records.

Now, the frustrating part of this season is that UNC and Pitt were winnable games. they were on their way to a possible comback at Michigan State but turnovers shut it down. Winning those games would have put them ahead of the schedule. The other frustrating part is the same youthful and mental mistakes being made.

 

[scoutgod]

None besides Navy. so what? was ND supposed to win a NC this year? A BCS bowl? if anyone had those expectations, they are based in desire not reality.

That's is my point. What's-his-cheese was saying "We will win again. We already doing it."

Other, "non-special" programs can be proud of these kinds of wins. ND and her fans should hold themselves a little higher. I would respect Jimmy more if he actually did say that win wasn't good enough. 43 straight wins... dominance.... then one loss.... and he says that a 3-0 win is the same as 60-0 dominance. No, it is not.

 

[wahoo]

None besides Navy. so what? was ND supposed to win a NC this year? A BCS bowl? if anyone had those expectations, they are based in desire not reality.

Read a post of mine earlier of how long it took a similarly situated Miami team in the late 90s to climb out of a hole. for them it was years 5, 6 and 7 before they returned to a winning record, then a bowl game, then a NC in year 8. In year 4, all of their wins (only 5 that year) were against teams with losing records.

Now, the frustrating part of this season is that UNC and Pitt were winnable games. they were on their way to a possible comback at Michigan State but turnovers shut it down. Winning those games would have put them ahead of the schedule. The other frustrating part is the same youthful and mental mistakes being made.

I wouldn't be comparing ND to Miami....Miami was on probation and had a serious lack of talent on the roster. Davis did a good job rebuilding the program until he left for the NFL.

The really frustrating problem I have with ND is that lack of improvement . They have had problems running the ball since CW has been there and the defense hasn't been all that great either. The lack of defense was disguised the first two years of the Weis era because Brady & Co were so prolific on offense. I still believe that until ND can develop a consistant run game and a stout defense then they will always be on the outside looking in at the Top 10. I don't want to hear about their youth either.. there are plenty of top college teams where underclassmen are contributing and playing well.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

winning cures all. next year when a vast majority of our producing players arent underclassmen we will be winning. then we'll just be talking about the little things that need to be cleaned up to lock up big bowl games.

by the by, the statement that other schools are doing well with underclassmen pitching in is irrelevant bc no other school has been forced to use so many sophomores and freshman. youth is a fact right now. deal with it.

 

[SteveM]

Who's Got the Project Plans for the Hanging Gardens of Babylon!?

Who's Got the Project Plans for the Hanging Gardens of Babylon!?

winning cures all. next year when a vast majority of our producing players arent underclassmen we will be winning. then we'll just be talking about the little things that need to be cleaned up to lock up big bowl games.

by the by, the statement that other schools are doing well with underclassmen pitching in is irrelevant bc no other school has been forced to use so many sophomores and freshman. youth is a fact right now. deal with it.

Ya know if wuddas, cuddas, shuddas, apples & oranges were pillars and stones, the guys on this site could rebuild all 7 Wonders of the World 7X over.

SteveM

 

[scoutgod]

Ya know if wuddas, cuddas, shuddas, apples & oranges were pillars and stones, the guys on this site could rebuild all 7 Wonders of the World 7X over.

SteveM

no freaking doubt bro.

 

[irishandy]

Yes, ND will shine again. Willingham won w/ Davies players and Weis won w/ Willingham's players. Now Weis is grooming his players...which is why we need to keep Weis.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

Boy, I sure hope the time is coming soon. 1994-present is an awful long time. Our history since that time, from my eyes:

1995- Listen to the 'hype' surrounding the Terry Glenn-Allen Rossum matchup in Columbus. Watch in person as Glenn laps our speedy career kick returner for a long TD. I hate Columbus. Manage to lose Orange Bowl after dominating game for 3 quarters.

1996- Don't go Lou!!! See last real big road win other than a Michigan game when we roll into Austin and beat Texas late. Get humbled by Ohio State a week later. Manage to get back into the national title picture, Air Force happens. Let's give OT back to the NFL please. High school buddy sits in the student section with me and sings 'Wild Blue Yonder.' Haven't talked to that bastard in 12 years. Streak vs. USC ends. Did I mention I hate overtime?

2000-Don't remember much about this season other than the Beaver pounding we took in the Fiesta Bowl. Oh wait! I took my first trip back to South Bend for a game since graduation. Go Irish! Beat Huskers! Wait, did I take a wrong turn at Albquerque? Are we in Lincoln? Low point for Irish fans. Oh yeah, another OT loss. Damn. I miss Joey Getherall.

2002- "Ty"-phoid fever!!! We are relevant again! Make my return trip to South Bend to see our Irish against BC. Take my brother-in-law and sister-in-law to revel in the Notre Dame experience. See the team come out in green jerseys, throw up in my mouth. Haven't had a drink since my honeymoon in '97. Mediocri-TY reigns for the next 2 years.

2005-06- I have a hard-on for Brady Quinn. He is my favorite all-time ND QB to-date. Watch the SC game in Hawaii the morning of my sister's wedding. Son of a bitch! Ruins my mood for the rest of the day. My daughter breaks the nose of the groom's mother dancing at the reception. Mood restored. I hate f'ing Ohio State!!! But I've got those tingly feelings in 2006. Go to Penn State game, proceed to shake down thunder. Take an ass-whoopin from the Skunkbears 7 days later. Travel in my Delorean to 2008, hear ESPN talk about an Ohio State team that will be able to get back in national title picture if they win out after narrow 32-point loss to USC. Hope restored. Travel back to South Bend with wife for UCLA game. Quinn to Samardzija!!! Wife and I agree that if Brady and Shark will take us, we will all move out to Utah and go Zoolander on each other. USC and LSU happen. Brady, Shark, McKnight are graduating. Darius Walker is forgoing his senior year to focus on his scout team career. Oh shit, this Jimmy guy better be good.

2007- I 'win' season tickets in the alumni lottery. Awesome!!! We' are supposed to win 10 games this year, right? Travel to South Bend for Georgia Tech game. Man, Tashard Choice is amazing. And I do think this is the best defense in the history of college football. Only logical explanation for this. Oh well, I'll be back for the SC game. Hear they'll be wearing the green jerseys. Note to self, remember 2002. Eat a light lunch before arriving at the stadium. Navy. Anchors Aweigh. There's always next year...

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

Ya know if wuddas, cuddas, shuddas, apples & oranges were pillars and stones, the guys on this site could rebuild all 7 Wonders of the World 7X over.

SteveM

you're awfully dramatic.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

after thinking about your comment i was tickled about the fact that you're the one going on and on and on about all the things wrong with the program, yet you're directing this woulda coulda shoulda BS at me. you're the one looking for a new answer every day so i fail to see how your comment applies.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I wouldn't be comparing ND to Miami....Miami was on probation and had a serious lack of talent on the roster. Davis did a good job rebuilding the program until he left for the NFL.

Miami wasn't just on probation, they were sanctioned and lost scholarships. But they still got 4* and 5* players, just not many of them. In total they lost 24 scholarships.

What do you do you think the ND classes of 2004, 2005 were in essence? they weren't full of numbers and talent. they essentially were self-sanctioned scholarship losses. ("self" being the prior coaching staff recruiting decisions.)

Starting 2005, ND had 68 scholarship players (a "loss" of 17 scholarships). By 2007, there were only 8 members of the 2004 class and 13 in the 2005 class. As of 2008, the senior (2004) class was down to 12 players. Every year a team can take a max of 25, no more than 85 for all 4-years. So a team can realistically take 20-25 every year. In 2007, ND had 21 scholarship upperclassmen... between 2 classes! They should have had 40-45 scholarship Juniors and Seniors. This year ND has 12 seniors and 18 Juniors; closer, but still not 40. In 2009, they'll have 18 seniors and 18 juniors; much better.

Miami lost 12 scholarships for two consecutive years. When those two classes became Seniors and Juniors, the program went in the tank; they couldn't beat anyone and had back to back losing seasons. When ND essentially "lost" scholarships in the 2004 and 2005 classes, what happened to Miami is exactly what happened to ND. we are in year 2.

 

[SteveM]

Man...

Man...

after thinking about your comment i was tickled about the fact that you're the one going on and on and on about all the things wrong with the program, yet you're directing this woulda coulda shoulda BS at me. you're the one looking for a new answer every day so i fail to see how your comment applies.

06,

I'm directing the wudda's and cudda's and apples and oranges to everyone on this forum who makes excuses. Because I'm not using Miami or Alabama as benchmarks. Which is the great obfuscation at this site. "Oh, Alabama has thugs!"

I'm comparing us to BC, Pitt, NC and all those other programs that are better than ND is RIGHT NOW. With NO excuse for them being better than us RIGHT NOW.

And you guys want to nickel and dime the intricacies of every school's roster. Well life does not work that way. Good programs have roster ebbs and flows all the time. With 85 Charlie can't win via the law of large numbers? 85 slots and ND can't club Navy? Can't beat NC? Can't beat Pittsburgh? This is Charlie's 4th year. If the upper classes don't have players, whose fault is that?

Oh, I forgot the other element of the excuse panoply, "this play, that play, and another play and we're 8 - 2." While we're at it, let's wudda, cudda, shudda, apples and oranges our way into the national championship. As a thought experiment. Just put on our thinking caps and imagine how we can go back in time and rearrange all the little quantum elements of kismet. And viola! We're national champs with just 1,684 micro-adjustments to how the state of nature played out over the past 4 years! Just ignore the facts of life we don't like because we thought experimented them away! Sounds like fun. Let's do it!

Excuses are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink. And I think we have too many excuses and they are constantly enumerated because we lose or are only just competitive against teams we should beat. Not Miami, Not Alabama, Not Texas. Teams that...we...should...beat...

ND may not stink, but the excuses sure do.

SteveM

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

gotcha

 

[SoCalDomer]

And you guys want to nickel and dime the intricacies of every school's roster. Well life does not work that way. Good programs have roster ebbs and flows all the time. With 85 Charlie can't win via the law of large numbers? 85 slots and ND can't club Navy? Can't beat NC? Can't beat Pittsburgh?

You think ND has 85 scholarship players on the roster? can you offer some proof of that? I count 78 including Ragone and Yeatman.

what happened to ND's program was not "ebb and flow", and to call it so is just blatant lying. you know exactly what happened in the program with the decrease in scholarship players, and that no other program, save those touched by poor recruiters or subject to NCAA scholarship penalties, has ever gone through.

This is Charlie's 4th year. If the upper classes don't have players, whose fault is that?

are you serious? let's see. The recruiting period for this year's senior class (2005) class would have run from Sept 2003-Feb 2005. Charlie was the coach for how long during this period?

The Junior (2006) class lost 8-members to permanent injury or transfer because they were low on the depth chart or never cracked it. How is that Weis' fault?

SteveM, you're doing everyone a disservice if you're assuming that whenever someone responds like i just did that I'm making excuses for the losses at BC, Pitt, NC, or Michigan State, or not playing more dominant in other games. I don't have to preface my posts by saying "this is not an excuse" or to condition my response that I recognize other things need to be fixed in this program. Simply stating facts in my response is not the same as offering excuses or downplaying other issues.

Ignoring blatant facts is just foolish. I for one don't like to ignore what I perceive to be facts about ND's program.

Comparing what happend historically to Miami via loss of scholarships is not obfuscating. It is was logical people do; well at least those who aren't interested in bitching and whining. You consider what happened in history, if it compares to the current situation, then it makes sense that what Miami went through is similar to explain what ND is going through.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Hell yeah SoCal. Gotta spread some more love before i rep you, but the Miami argument is perfect, and I ain't obfujazcating, or whateverthehell that word is, either!

 

[SteveM]

Stuffed

Stuffed

...

SteveM, you're doing everyone a disservice if you're assuming that whenever someone responds like i just did that I'm making excuses for the losses at BC, Pitt, NC, or Michigan State, or not playing more dominant in other games. I don't have to preface my posts by saying "this is not an excuse" or to condition my response that I recognize other things need to be fixed in this program. Simply stating facts in my response is not the same as offering excuses or downplaying other issues....

SCD,

What I'm saying is that given the whole enchilada of ND's competitive advantage, TV, aggregate recruiting (multi-year roster), supposed quality of coaching, historic motivational vibe, ND should be better than it is.

If the facts you state do not swamp what advantages ND ostensibly does have, then they're excuses.

Sorry, but I'm tired of the double-entry roster book-keeping. You could slice and dice every D-IA roster till the cows came home and play simulated games. That and a buck-thirty five gets you a ride on the Metro.

"He can take his'ns and beat your'ns....and he can take your'ns and beat his'ns. ..." Bum Phillips.

SteveM

P.S. I remember when Lou was missing half his offense at Arkansas and they were 24 point underdogs against Oklahoma in the Orange bowl. He clubbed them 31-7. I'm waiting for Charlie to club somebody decent with his entire roster.

P.P.S. That's it for me. I can't eat another apple or orange. I'm outta here till '09.