2023 - State of the Recruiting Class

[Domina Nostra]

The defensive class, which was the highlight of it, is all Freeman. Even with the loss of Bowen, ND has hit on all positions with the defensive classes in 2022 & 2023. And the current offensive class is almost a near gem, it's only missing the elite QB.

The most important position this year was Viper, and we did not get a true Viper. (I also have no idea why they didn't want a true NG.)

IMO, championship defenses need D-linemen like Tuitt, Nix, and Kapron Lewis-Moore, and then up-and-coming back-ups of similar quality. Not seeing anything like that. We are getting very good to excellent D-linemen, but no elites.

And you need at least one potential shut-down corner. BM might be that, and I do like what we're bringing in... but not sure if its elite.

I think the LB position is the only one that we recruit on an elite level, and that is in large part due to Freeman.

I love Freeman, and don't blame him. As others have said, I think Freeman is a great recruiter and would have signed amazing classes pre-NIL. But it's different now and--again in true ND fashion--ND will not adjust until Freeman has lost a lot of momentum. As a result, I predict his recruiting success will be a lot like Kelly's; maybe a slight upgrade.

 

[Dale]

As a result, I predict his recruiting success will be a lot like Kelly's; maybe a slight upgrade.

It’s already an upgrade on Kelly, even without Bowen.

 

[Luckylucci]

The most important position this year was Viper, and we did not get a true Viper. (I also have no idea why they didn't want a true NG.)

I love Freeman, and don't blame him. As others have said, I think Freeman is a great recruiter and would have signed amazing classes pre-NIL. But it's different now and--again in true ND fashion--ND will not adjust until Freeman has lost a lot of momentum.

As a result, I predict his recruiting success will be a lot like Kelly's; maybe a slight upgrade.

Respectfully, this seems a like a strawman here.

You thought the most important position in this class was Vyper over QB, WR, or S? We signed zero S's last cycle. 1 WR. And, well, you see what our QB room looks like.

I really think all we need is a slight upgrade, more consistency/less roster gaps, and a QB. So, if Freeman can do that, we're good to go. He's on his way.

 

[Dale]

If we say because of NIL, Freeman will never land a 5 star ever, BK landed in 10 or whatever years this many guys:


Stephon Tuitt
Michael Mayer
Jaylon Smith
Aaron Lynch
Ishaq Williams
Gunner Kiel
Max Redfield
Tommy Kraemer
Jaylen Sneed***

Personally I wouldn’t ever dismiss we could land Jaylon, Mayer or Kraemer. Freeman landed Sneed.

Rest of the list probably would have been NIL battles, and none of them really panned out besides Tuitt lol.

Freeman’s grind in recruiting resulting in classes with surplus of blue chip talent already puts his floor above BK in recruiting. And even with a ceiling hypothetically capped by NIL, BKs recruiting already capped us there to begin with.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

If we say because of NIL, Freeman will never land a 5 star ever, BK landed in 10 or whatever years this many guys:


Stephon Tuitt
Michael Mayer
Jaylon Smith
Aaron Lynch
Ishaq Williams
Gunner Kiel
Max Redfield
Tommy Kraemer
Jaylen Sneed***

Personally I wouldn’t ever dismiss we could land Jaylon, Mayer or Kraemer. Freeman landed Sneed.

Rest of the list probably would have been NIL battles, and none of them really panned out besides Tuitt lol.

Freeman’s grind in recruiting resulting in classes with surplus of blue chip talent already puts his floor above BK in recruiting. And even with a ceiling hypothetically capped by NIL, BKs recruiting already capped us there to begin with.

Isn't Charles already a 5 star (on3)?

 

[Dale]

Isn't Charles already a 5 star (on3)?

Yup, I was just going off 247 Comp though

 

[dublinirish]

 

[ThePiombino]

Not for nothing, but shouldn't it? He is at a lawless SEC school after all.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[Domina Nostra]

Respectfully, this seems a like a strawman here.

You thought the most important position in this class was Vyper over QB, WR, or S? We signed zero S's last cycle. 1 WR. And, well, you see what our QB room looks like.

I really think all we need is a slight upgrade, more consistency/less roster gaps, and a QB. So, if Freeman can do that, we're good to go. He's on his way.

I was responding to a post about defensive recruiting.

But I don’t think this year’s QB recruiting was something special— it does not seem like some real upgrade over Golson, Kiel, Kaiser, Wimbush, PJ, or Buchner.

 

[Domina Nostra]

It’s already an upgrade on Kelly, even without Bowen.

No it’s not. Kelly had good years and bad years. You can’t judge based on a single year, especially before signing day.

 

[Dale]

No it’s not. Kelly had good years and bad years. You can’t judge based on a single year, especially before signing day.

So I can’t rebuttal, even backed by data, but you can judge based off _____? Obviously my opinion is not fact yet, but I believe I can make the same judgment and conclusion you can.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

The last five years of Kelly's tenure here he averaged 255.89 points. If Bowen is the only defector, this class is still better than that.

 

[Free Manera]

One day I had looked back through the 247 class rankings to compare, and this class is definitively better than any Kelly class. Not only that, it is the best class since the one Weis class that was stacked with elite offensive talent. I believe with Bowen this class would beat that class, making it the best since Holtz. I'm not sure if it beats it without Bowen but it's close.

 

[NDPhilly]

Reminder, the sole reason the 2022 class was so much better than Kelly's average is because of Marcus Freeman.

 

[Domina Nostra]

So I can’t rebuttal, even backed by data, but you can judge based off _____? Obviously my opinion is not fact yet, but I believe I can make the same judgment and conclusion you can.

You are definitely right that there is no basis to argue that Freeman is worse than Kelly. To be clear, I am only point is that it is too early to judge. If he goes 8-4 again next year, I highly doubt we are going to see another top 5 class (unless ND NIL explodes).

But you also have to acknowledge the environment Kelly was recruiting into after Weis: 3-9; 7-6, 6-6. Naysayers every where. No depth or continuity thanks to Willingham. The program was a dumpster fire, the facilities and perks were lagging, and the admission's department was much more stingy on early enrollees, transfers, etc.

Both in terms of recruiting into a successful program, and in terms of the school's relationship with football, things are much easier for Freeman. In terms of NIL, they are going to be harder...

Freeman is recruiting to a program that won at least 10 games the previous 4 seasons, including an undefeated season.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Gonna be a great class. Bowen or no Bowen. The good thing is that we prepared for this unlike in the past.

Just hoping we can hang on to Limar now and maybe add a guy or two on the late signing day.

 

[Dale]

But you also have to acknowledge the enviornment Kelly was recruiting into after Weis.

His best classes were his first ones lol. Then he stopped trying (and didn’t have Diaco)

 

[Domina Nostra]

His best classes were his first ones lol. Then he stopped trying.

Not true, 2013 was an excellent class, which came as a direct result of his turning the program around.

There was more to it than that . . . after the NC, there was catfishing, Declan Sullivan, frozen five, the St. Mary's scandal. It was NC and then just hit after hit.

It's going to be interesting to see how long Freeman keeps recruiting the Keely, Moores, and Bowens, unless there is a serious NIL injection. And it is also going to be interesting to see how recruiting goes if we have another mediocre season.

Again, I think Freeman is a great recruiter, and I agree Kelly was checked out. But I also think recruiting to ND is a different animal and there is a difference between a good year and sustained success.

 

[IrishSpartan]

Anybody else feel like the 23 cycle took a shotgun to 4 for 40?

I dont known if I should be happy or sad

 

[Free Manera]

The more elite the player, the less impactful 4 for 40 is. The top 50 kind of players are NFL or bust, and rightfully so because that is their best shot at generational wealth.

With some families, you can still sell 4 for 40 to elite recruits. After all, it almost worked with Bowen and Keeley. But most of them aren't really going to care. They will take the 6-7 figures now to help their family, play a few years, then go to the League and make their real money.

 

[Dale]

Not true, 2013 was an excellent class.

There was more to it than that. It's going to be interesting to see how long Freeman keeps recruiting the Keely, Moores, and Bowens, unless there is a serious NIL injection.

Right, 2013 is one of his first classes.

 

[fightingirish26]

Let's get oregon on the schedule

 

[Dale]

But you also have to acknowledge the environment of
Kelly was recruiting into:

So we are really going with reasons Kelly wasn’t as successful a recruiter:

- after Weis: 3-9; 7-6, 6-6.
- Naysayers every where.
- No depth or continuity thanks to Willingham.
- The program was a dumpster fire
- the facilities and perks were lagging
- the admission's department was much more stingy
- catfishing
- Declan Sullivan
- frozen five
- the St. Mary's scandal.

Sorry but this is a wild justification.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Right, 2013 is one of his first classes.

It was his fourth class, and the third he was fully responsible for.

Again, Kelly took over a team that was 16-21 over the previous 3 years. The one he took over from Weis was 15. His next was 9. His next was 12.

Freeman is recruiting to a school that was 32-5 over the previous 3 years. The class he took over from Kelly finished 10.

It's apples to oranges. We'll know Freeman is a better recruiter if he sustains this for a few years.

 

[Dale]

It was his fourth class, and the third he was fully responsible for.

Right……one of his first ones. He was here till 2021. 2013 qualifies as one of his first ones.

 

[Domina Nostra]

So we are really going with reasons Kelly wasn’t as successful a recruiter:

- after Weis: 3-9; 7-6, 6-6.
- Naysayers every where.
- No depth or continuity thanks to Willingham.
- The program was a dumpster fire
- the facilities and perks were lagging
- the admission's department was much more stingy
- catfishing
- Declan Sullivan
- frozen five
- the St. Mary's scandal.

Sorry but this is a wild justification.

I am arguing that the ND football program in 2022 was in a MUCH better place than ND in 2011.

And if you want to know why recruiting worked or didn't in any particular year, you have to know a little more than who is the HC.

For example, sometimes the stars align so a new coach gets a big splash factor and creates a lot of excitement. Sometimes, the new coach is a blow to the program and scares people off.

 

[Dale]

I am arguing that the ND football program in 2022 was in a MUCH better place than ND in 2011.

And if you want to know why recruiting worked or didn't in any particular year, you have to know a little more than who is the HC.

and ND football was in a better place in 2020 than in 2011, yet his recruiting regressed from the time you are describing. He should have peaked right before he left by your own points.

I think you’re pretty off from the original discussion.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I am arguing that the ND football program in 2022 was in a MUCH better place than ND in 2011.

And if you want to know why recruiting worked or didn't in any particular year, you have to know a little more than who is the HC.

and ND football was in a better place in 2020 than in 2011, yet his recruiting regressed from the time you are describing. He should have peaked right before he left by your own points.

I think you’re pretty off from the original discussion.

No. You are arguing that Kelly's early classes were his best, but then argue that Kelly was not a good recruiter because of his later mediocre classes.

This supports my point that we should not judge a head coach based on his first full class.

It's way too early to judge if Freeman is a clear upgrade on Kelly, recruiting-wise. I agree that his attitude towards recruiting seems better but, at the end of the day, its the ability to sustain a high level year-after-year that matters.

His early success can be chalked up to a splashy, charismatic hire at a traditional power that has been winning a lot. If we become an 8-win team again (like Kelly did), I will not expect to see continued Top 10 classes.

 

[Dale]

No.

You are arguing that Kelly's early classes were his best, but then argue that Kelly was not a good recruiter because of his later mediocre classes.

This supports my point that we should not judge a head coach based on his first full class.

It's way too early to judge if Freeman is a clear upgrade on Kelly, recruiting-wise. I agree that his attitude towards recruiting seems better, but at the end of the day its the ability to sustain a high level year-after-year that matters.

So your main point is I can’t judge even though I was responding to your judgement still lol. Idk, seem to be going in circles and still tangent to the core point. Not worth further

 

[domer13]

According to Rivals (247 doesn't go back this far)
Ty
2002 - 24
2003 - 12
2004 - 32
Ty->Weis
2005 - 40
2006 - 8
2007 - 8
2008 - 2
2009 - 21
Weis->Kelly
2010 - 14
2011 - 10
2012 - 20
2013 - 3
2014 - 11
2015 - 11
2016 - 13
2017 - 13
2018 - 11
2019 - 14
2020 - 22
2021 - 9
Kelly->Freeman
2022 - 6
2023 - 4, for now