Off season 2007-2008

[mbooch]

So, good people, a long, hard season is now in the books, and, as St. Peter might have said, the question now is "Quo Vadis?" Where do we go from here?

My top three hopes:

1. The recruits stay with us. The single biggest problem at ND is the body and talent drain Tyrone, the Golfer, left in his last two recruiting years. It is essential to re-fill the pool.

2. Charlie has to buy into the college game, and learn to relate to college freshmen. No quetsion, CW cmpounded prob #1 by trying to replicate New England in South Bend this year. He dinked and dunked too much, and his "light contact" approach left us with a very young, very ill-prepared O line. He has to do better on both counts.

3. LAY OFF LATINA! While it is clear that the root of most of ND's problems thise year can be traced, without much effort, to the inept O-line. I personally feel stringly that that was NOT Latina's fault. CW directed the "light contact" approach to pre=season, and this is the youngest O line I can remember ND ever fielding. When next year's "veteran" is a SOPHOMORE, Sam Young, that pretty mucyh says it all. None of this is Latina's fault. I believe he deserves the same latitude we're showing the head coach.

And you all say ?????

 

[quiksilver253]

3. LAY OFF LATINA! While it is clear that the root of most of ND's problems thise year can be traced, without much effort, to the inept O-line. I personally feel stringly that that was NOT Latina's fault. CW directed the "light contact" approach to pre=season, and this is the youngest O line I can remember ND ever fielding. When next year's "veteran" is a SOPHOMORE, Sam Young, that pretty mucyh says it all. None of this is Latina's fault. I believe he deserves the same latitude we're showing the head coach.

erroneous. latina sucks. it's all his fault. he deserves to be fired. lets bring in a real line coach. we have more talent on our rosters than many teams and we cant move the ball atall. al these highly recruited guys who suddenly cannot do anything.

BLAME. LATINA.

 

[GoshenGipper]

erroneous. latina sucks. it's all his fault. he deserves to be fired. lets bring in a real line coach. we have more talent on our rosters than many teams and we cant move the ball atall. al these highly recruited guys who suddenly cannot do anything.

BLAME. LATINA.

I wouldn'd go that far but I think a change needs to be made. When Sam Young is getting torn apart in the last game of the season because of bad technique and quickness that means something as does many other things, like a 5th year Sr that can't make a shotgun snap. No one on the OL has really grown and imporved and that needs to change. If you'll remember last year's line often looked like they had regressed from '05.

 

[mbooch]

erroneous. latina sucks. it's all his fault. he deserves to be fired. lets bring in a real line coach. we have more talent on our rosters than many teams and we cant move the ball atall. al these highly recruited guys who suddenly cannot do anything.

BLAME. LATINA.

Make your case, Silver. "He sucks" is NOT a case. Here's mine.

1. Without doubt, with the "oldest" player out there now being Duncan, a red-shirt junior, ND fields the youngest O line in big time college football. Latina didn't do that. Willingham did. Latina also didn't dictate the "light contact" aproach to opre-season prep. Weis did. ALSO not Latina's fault. If ND starts the same O line as they did today, it'll be a predominately Junior /Sophomore O line. Better than this year, but still damn young in comparison to the 3 and 4 senior starting lineups we usually play against. ALSO not Latina's fault.

2. NEXT year, the group we had starting today will have had a full off-season to strengthen and toughen up. It'll also be relatively more experienced versus the D lines it plays against. NEXT YEAR will be a better test.

3. A large part of the problem this year has been the play-calling the O line has had to block for. Dinks and dunks and nohting that stretches the defense. This unit was forced to block 5 aginst 7 too often.

4. Asaph Schwapp, the guy who's supposed to pick up blitzers, didn't. He's not in Latina's jurisdiction AT ALL.

So, now, your turn.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I think I figured out how to solve the kicking problem. Sign the guy on the right. He's wirey.

 

[mbooch]

LOL !!! Fabulous! And, hey, the guy on the LEFT would make a helluva linebacker, but Neal's already got the number! Suppose we can get the cheerleaders, too ?

 

[patman1868]

I will add a couple things onto that list

Work with and develop clausen. He has shown flashes of why he was so highly touted coming out of high school. Now if they keep him in the film room learning more defenses, getting better at making reads and pre-snap adjustments he should advance even more as a QB, and become the general of this offense.

Work on tackling. Sometimes during games it was so frustrating to see how bad at tackling we were on defense. Sometimes it is probably overlooked because it is such a basic element of the game, but wrapping up and making a tackle can be the difference between a 3-4 yard gain and 30-40 yard gain. Stopping those big plays would help out a lot next year.

Finally, either find a new kicker or make the kickers work on field goals all of the time. Having a capable kicker is a big part of winning close games. It would be nice to have a kicker we can depend on in clutch situations.

thats all im sure there are more but i dont feel like thinking of any

 

[SteveM]

Well we Veni'd Vidi'd but we sure didn't Vici.

But to fix that for next year:

• They gotta fix the offensive line. There were too, too many plays with multiple penetration by the opponent's defensive line. Not 1 or 2 or 3, but 4 or more guys. It started with G.T. and in continued up through Stanford. Not an iota of improvement from season's start to finish. I don't know why that's crapped up, but it is. Big time.
  
• Clausen has to improve his strength overall, but especially his arm strength. Too many of his passes over 30 yards were wounded ducks.
  
• Clausen has to throw a ton of balls in the off season.
  
• Carlson has to be replaced with another tight end that can catch. I mentioned in another post (wonderfully perceptive and erudite that you guys ignored) that a tight end you can rescue a QB who is in trouble (ala Jay Novacek) is worth is weight in (blue and) gold.
  
• Clausen has to throw a ton of balls to him in the off season to get the chemistry down and help ensure he is fully integrated into the passing game plan.
  
• Laws has to be replaced with another impact player of the same caliber. I don't know who that will be.
  
• Charlie will be pulled sideways by both his arrogance and his awareness of the need for change. Most guys who realize that (e.g. Tom Coughlin about 8 years ago) have only a temporary epiphany, then they revert to dysfunctional personality as usual. I think it's something about teaching an old dog new tricks. This is the biggest factor in next year's success for sure. It's not about what Charlie learns related to X's and O's from the guys in New England, it's what he's learned about himself. BTW, here's a quote about Bill Callahan firing story from the ESPN web site. Related to recruiting and success, it stands on its own.

Callahan was widely acclaimed for his recruiting, and each of his classes was ranked high by analysts. But many of those players never delivered, and Callahan's ability to develop talent was questioned.

And, I agree with the other guys here who have posted about the importance of maintaining presence and connectivity of the legacy players. I certainly hope Charlie can adjust his coaching style to suit the college game. But it the meantime and beyond, those alumni could really fill in the holes that may exist now relating to the current players and future prospects. And I just thought of something. Charlie never played college ball, and who better to compare and contrast ideas about the ND vs pro environments than the former ND'ers who played both? That's probably the best talk Charlie could have around a few beers if he was prepared to let his guard down. The real insight about how to right this program lies not with Belichick, but with them.

Lastly, You guys could be be knuckleheads some times. But hey, I'm often the biggest knuckehead . And that's what made this fun. So we have that in common plus our affection for ND. So that said, I hope you all have a warm and festive Christmas season as we bed down for next year.

Regards,

SteveM

 

[Junkhead]

1. Without doubt, with the "oldest" player out there now being Duncan, a red-shirt junior, ND fields the youngest O line in big time college football. Latina didn't do that. Willingham did. Latina also didn't dictate the "light contact" aproach to opre-season prep. Weis did. ALSO not Latina's fault. If ND starts the same O line as they did today, it'll be a predominately Junior /Sophomore O line. Better than this year, but still damn young in comparison to the 3 and 4 senior starting lineups we usually play against. ALSO not Latina's fault.

The problem with Latina is that the O-lines were the team weakness (along with pass D), during 2005-2006, in which we made BCS bowls INSPITE of the sub-par line play. Quinn was outstanding at avoiding pressure. Santucci, and Harris,( a 4 year starter) were drafted, Sully was a preseason AA this year, Young was a 5* recruit (though too *young*). Morton might have been drafted had he not chosen religion instead. Even with what looked to be a potentially dominant and experienced line (in 2006), they were mediocre. It may not be all Latina's fault, but a fresh start after that PATHETIC season is needed, and it all comes back to the O-line.

 

[onenybrother]

It's Charlie teams and staff. That's make it his fault. He can fire anyone he wants, but let's make things clear. If Charlie dont turn this around next year, we will be seeing his resignation press conference next year. Big contrat or not.

 

[Master Guns]

It's Charlie teams and staff. That's make it his fault. He can fire anyone he wants, but let's make things clear. If Charlie dont turn this around next year, we will be seeing his resignation press conference next year. Big contrat or not.

Yep!

 

[goldandblue]

I think it's time for Latina to go. Mbooch, much of what you stated is Weis' fault. But the underacheiving Line from 2006 as well as the Awful Line play of 2007 is enough for me to say that Latina is not getting the job done. The light contact off season no doubt played a role in the lines problems in the beginning of the year. But They didn't make much progress throughout the year, so that tells me that The Offensive Line coach was not getting his game plan across. Picking up a blitz is more strategy and game plan than it is just being physical.

On another note, I think Asaph needs to be replaced. I try and watch him alot during the games and I don't notice him doing a lot to help the team. I'd like to see Schmidt in there a little more.

 

[quiksilver253]

Make your case, Silver. "He sucks" is NOT a case. Here's mine.

I made my case in another thread unfortunately, i am not willing to retype that novel...ill c if i can find it.

 

[quiksilver253]

This was posted on the 31 of october

Every problem this year could be traced right back to the offensive line.

Inability to run the ball:
Line create no creases AT ALL thus leaving our RB's on their own.

Lack of a Passing Game:
THe Qb's rarely have enought time to hand off the ball let alone throw downfield

Defensive Breakdowns Late IN GAmes:
Lopsided time on the field, defense is on for what seems like the whole game so they get tired. Because the offensive line cant do shit, the defense must try to make up for them

I dont know why everyone is up charlie's ass. How do you expect the man to put together a gameplan when he doesnt know wtf his line is going to do or which team is going to show up. He is in an imppossile position.

THis one falls purely on the offensive line coach for doing a terrible job, and tyrone willingham for having 2 shitty recruiting classes leading to the lack of leadershi on this team..


P.S. pardon my french

 

[mbooch]

This was posted on the 31 of october

Not bad! Here's where I disagree. Latina did not control the finesse/pass first scheme of 2006. He also didn't control Darius " If I Run In Place Long Enough, All the Defenders Will Fall Down" Walker, who drove me CRAZY in 2006. And he sure didn't control the absolutley unprecedented YOUTH of this year's line. Honest, try tofind ANY NCAA team BESIDES ND that started the season with ONE senior lineman, and finished with, effectively, an all-sophomore starting 5. (The thin-ness of the talent, and youth WERE the Willingham Legacy. When you under-recruit, the place it almost always shows up is in the "big" units, i.e. the two lines. You can always find an end, or a RB, or even a fake LB (Travis Thomas, 2006). But you can't fake the numbers you have to have in the two lines, and, as we saw this year, without the line, it doesn't matter if your QB has God's initials, or can make lunch for 5,000 with three loaves and five fishes. NONE OF THAT was Latina's fault. So, he'll have some numbers next year, and I assume more in '09. THEN we'll know.

 

[solo]

A lot of things need to happen.

1. We need 2 new coaches right out of the blocks: OL and ST. Latina had an experienced line in 2005/6 and we have not been able to run the ball ever under this regime. This year we were inept at everything. He needs to go. And there was nothing special about special teams. We either need to hire someone or Charlie needs to take over this role and hand off the OC role to our OC.

2. Strength and conditioning need to be upgraded immensely. We were manhandled by nearly every team we played on the lines. In addition to finding a coach that can teach fundamentals, we need to be bigger, faster, stronger, and tougher.

3. Weis needs to forget everything he knows about NFL football and take a crash course in NCAA football. We don't nor will we or any college team ever have the level of talent that exists on every NFL team. College football is about Jimmy's and Joe's not X's and O's. The sooner Weis learns this, the better chance he has to fulfull his contract.

4. We need some DL talent to emerge. Our best player (Laws) graduates and there is nobody that can fill his shoes. We need a solid run stuffing nose tackle to emerge. You must have one of these to run the 3-4. We don't have one and were soft up front.

5. Weis or another member of the staff needs to get this team emotionally fired up for every game. The business like mentality of the NFL doesn't work at this level.

6. Our WR's need to get A LOT faster and need to develop better hands. They rarely get separation and too often drop the ball when they do.

I believe that this off season wil seal Weis' fate as a coach at ND.

 

[NDOM]

So, good people, a long, hard season is now in the books, and, as St. Peter might have said, the question now is "Quo Vadis?" Where do we go from here?

My top three hopes:

1. The recruits stay with us. The single biggest problem at ND is the body and talent drain Tyrone, the Golfer, left in his last two recruiting years. It is essential to re-fill the pool.

2. Charlie has to buy into the college game, and learn to relate to college freshmen. No quetsion, CW cmpounded prob #1 by trying to replicate New England in South Bend this year. He dinked and dunked too much, and his "light contact" approach left us with a very young, very ill-prepared O line. He has to do better on both counts.

3. LAY OFF LATINA! While it is clear that the root of most of ND's problems thise year can be traced, without much effort, to the inept O-line. I personally feel stringly that that was NOT Latina's fault. CW directed the "light contact" approach to pre=season, and this is the youngest O line I can remember ND ever fielding. When next year's "veteran" is a SOPHOMORE, Sam Young, that pretty mucyh says it all. None of this is Latina's fault. I believe he deserves the same latitude we're showing the head coach.

And you all say ?????

Lay off Latina? Dude what the hell have you been smoking? Have you even watched ANY games this year or even last year? Last year we were good but the Offensive line was NOT! We had a quarterback who could get rid of the ball and we had a running back that could make something out of nothing. This year we were just plain lousy. Worse offensive line in the country. John Latina is a joke and I have said this time and time again; I have NEVER liked him as a line coach. Lay off Latina. Dude are you somehow related or are you John Latina on Irish Envy calling yourself mbooch????? Wake the hell up. He sucks.

 

[goldandblue]

Lay off Latina? Dude what the hell have you been smoking? Have you even watched ANY games this year or even last year? Last year we were good but the Offensive line was NOT! We had a quarterback who could get rid of the ball and we had a running back that could make something out of nothing. This year we were just plain lousy. Worse offensive line in the country. John Latina is a joke and I have said this time and time again; I have NEVER liked him as a line coach. Lay off Latina. Dude are you somehow related or are you John Latina on Irish Envy calling yourself mbooch????? Wake the hell up. He sucks.

agreed.

 

[jonesman]

Solo,
I agree with alot of what you said. The one area that I agree with that has suprised me is our strength and conditioning. CW has praised Ruben, but if you look at the situation and reality, we are NOT stronger than anyone we face. When our seniors go to the combines they all finish at the bottom of their respective positions on strength. Something must change. It is time for some serious cleaning. If CW does not get it done in 2008, I believe he knows the heat in the kitchen will be like an inferno. He has a ton of talent returning and a very reasonable schedule. NO EXCUSES IN 2008!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NDOM]

Solo,
I agree with alot of what you said. The one area that I agree with that has suprised me is our strength and conditioning. CW has praised Ruben, but if you look at the situation and reality, we are NOT stronger than anyone we face. When our seniors go to the combines they all finish at the bottom of their respective positions on strength. Something must change. It is time for some serious cleaning. If CW does not get it done in 2008, I believe he knows the heat in the kitchen will be like an inferno. He has a ton of talent returning and a very reasonable schedule. NO EXCUSES IN 2008!!!!!!!!!!

ABSOLUTELY!

 

[piyachi]

I don't know that I agree about Mendoza - are we getting manhandled? Yes. Is it because of him? Largely I think that the problem is due to confusion (ugh, Latina again) and youth. The young guys have a lower strength ceiling than a senior - you just develop so much physically in 4/5 years. Not to mention what has Mendoza had a chance to do with our freshman? He is someone that seems to be at least entitled to another year.

Offseason to-do list

1. Fix the Line - We are going to need to see major development on both of the lines. Whether the solution is firing Latina, or something else, we need to have a very solid OLine next year with 5 returning starters. On the other side of the ball we lose our best player in Trevor Laws. We are probably going to be starting Ian Williams, and our depth along the D-Line is still going to be very young. If we are going to built a really solid D it has to start there.

2. Get a special teams coach, and maybe even a kicking coach. Whether it's a terrible wedge on KO returns or allowing big returns, special teams has been one major weakness int he 07 Irish. We do need a coach there (I really don't think Polian is responsible - it's a collective coaching effort). We don't seem to be bringing in a kicker, so either Walker gets better, or we are going to be missing out on more points next year.

3. Fundamentals - The most glaring error here is tackling. It has been sloppy all year from seniors right on down to freshman. Route running for the wide receivers. Jimmy being able to throw the ball away. There are a lot of errors this year, and most should be attributable to youth. But if they are still showing up next year en masse, then I think we have a real problem. Lets ditch sacks allowed, lack of separation, and arm tackles.

4. Qb Development. There have still been some mystifying decisions by Jimmah like running out of bounds for a 10-yard loss. He has made strides this year, and the have really showed in the past three games. If he can add 10+ pounds of muscle, and be ready to handle a system with real wrinkles in the 08 season we should be able to move the chains a lot more often.

I think our issues stem from these points. Fix them and we eliminate the plethora of dumb penalties, we hold a lot more teams to under 20 points, we start to see a non-pathetic offense, etc. I don't think there is some mystical 'must win ___ games' next year. It would sure be nice to see a team that is a lot more like 2005 than 2007 though.

 

[connor_in]

I think I figured out how to solve the kicking problem. Sign the guy on the right. He's wirey.

Be sure you pronounce that last word right...roll the r..

 

[connor_in]

I have to agree w/ piyachi about the special teams...The O Line and Clausen definitely need work, but what the heck w/ special teams...2 years in a row we used scholarships on place kickers and if we are beyond the 20 yard line we always have to go for it on fourt and whatever???

Seroiusly, these guys were both lights out and can't miss prospects and NIETHER ONE OF THEM CAN HIT WITH ANY CONSISTENCY WHAT SO EVER?

As far as returns go, is it out blocking scheme? Was zibby just a step to slow (god bless him and his ability to make the tackler pay the price for hitting him, but he's no devon hester speed wise)? HELP!

Our young punter looks like he has the chops to get some things done, so there's a bright spot.

Any nore long snaps going to go sailing or can we complete that bad boy every once in a while...heck, scholly a guy just for long snapping on kicks and punts if we have to!

Way to finish out the year on an up note...I know I complain, but it was great to finish out the year with 2 consective wins for the first time since 1992

 

[jonesman]

Piyachi,
I have to disagree with you on Mendoza. Have you checked out how our Senior that have gone to the NFL combines have faired against other seniors. All have finished toward the bottom at their respective positions regarding strength. Abiamari was a huge dissapointment. Santucci the same. Brady was the only one to finish at the top and that is because he is a phyco gym rat. In fact, our 225# QB out lifted every other ND player. How is your QB outlifting 300# lineman and 275# DL guys. This is a group which had two solid years of Ruben. VERY dissapointing from my perspective.

 

[JeremyND07]

Piyachi,
I have to disagree with you on Mendoza. Have you checked out how our Senior that have gone to the NFL combines have faired against other seniors. All have finished toward the bottom at their respective positions regarding strength. Abiamari was a huge dissapointment. Santucci the same. Brady was the only one to finish at the top and that is because he is a phyco gym rat. In fact, our 225# QB out lifted every other ND player. How is your QB outlifting 300# lineman and 275# DL guys. This is a group which had two solid years of Ruben. VERY dissapointing from my perspective.

I agree we have not had a strong/"nasty" DL/OL players sense Faine! Laws is all about quickness and technique not strength...our OL should be in the weight room for 2 hours a day/six days a week until spring!!!!!!

Latina is a Joke!!! Our OL has underachieved since he got here...I say we hire Aaron Taylor as the OL coach!!!!!

 

[piyachi]

I don't follow much in the draft beyond the standard, so no I didn't know anything about that beyond Quinn having insane numbers.

I think a lot of what is being debated is pretty circular. Was Latina doing more with weak lineman? Or has he been underachieving with people that were drafted? at the end of the day I think we will only replace one or two coaches, and I just don't see Mendoza being one of them. Our line is really the only place where it seems we have major strength issues, and I think that is attributable to the (ever-rehashed) problems of youth, possibly coaching, confusion. I'm not saying we have been bulldozing people along the line, but we used to have west-coast (smaller, faster) lineman who would naturally not being as strong.

Plus as much as Brady is such a hard worker and deserves a lot of credit for his development - he had help.

Frankly I don't care as much about strength/conditioning coaching as I do about O-Line coaching. I think we would sooner dump Latina and Polian than Mendoza.

 

[JeremyND07]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesman
Piyachi,
I have to disagree with you on Mendoza. Have you checked out how our Senior that have gone to the NFL combines have faired against other seniors. All have finished toward the bottom at their respective positions regarding strength. Abiamari was a huge dissapointment. Santucci the same. Brady was the only one to finish at the top and that is because he is a phyco gym rat. In fact, our 225# QB out lifted every other ND player. How is your QB outlifting 300# lineman and 275# DL guys. This is a group which had two solid years of Ruben. VERY dissapointing from my perspective.

I agree we have not had a strong/"nasty" DL/OL players sense Faine! Laws is all about quickness and technique not strength...our OL should be in the weight room for 2 hours a day/six days a week until spring!!!!!!

Latina is a Joke!!! Our OL has underachieved since he got here...I say we hire Aaron Taylor as the OL coach!!!!!

 

[SoCalDomer]

Frankly I don't care as much about strength/conditioning coaching as I do about O-Line coaching.

I agree. No one is throwing strength and conditioning by the wayside. But smaller, less strong offensive lines were able to accomplish what their coaches asked of them this year. I suppose alot of it is utilizing proper technique, experience and confidence.

 

[Irish52]

A lot has been written, both here and elsewhere, about who Charlie should seek advice and counsel from during the offseason. First and foremost, Charlie needs to be truthful with himself and recognize who he is now, who he wants to be and then find the courage to do that which is necessary to be the changed man he desires to be. He doesn't need his former bosses, or anyone else, to show him the way. After all, he is an ND graduate and one would like to believe he has the intelligence to do this without outside intervention. Having said that, I'm not convinced he recognizes the need for change and that he may believe that who he is now and who he desires to be are one and the same man!!

 

[Newc]

I think people are making this whole advice from New England thing into much much more than it is. I don't see how its such a bad thing for Charlie to go consult with people that he has long time relationships with who share a mutual respect as well as a passion for the game of football.

I doubt Charlie will be going into New England asking them what he should be doing, but rather get some outside perspective from guys that he respects and who obviously are doing things well themselves.