Running out of Room?

stonebreakerwasgod

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LOL Kjones...the voice of moderation and talk. I could def see him do an Irish talk radio show. The real question is..would you have stoney on as a guest? Or better yet, if you would..what the f..k are you thinking??
 
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knute

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12 down, ~8 to go. In my opinion, the highest priority left is WR. Only QB and TE are closed. If we can get a commit from another quality WR, the rest of the slots can go to the best players available (BPA).
 

johnnd05

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Re. the question of whether you can win a national championship without fifth-year seniors, I submit the '06-07 Florida Gators (starting lineups from Wikipedia):

QB: Chris Leak (SR)
TB: DeShawn Wynn (RSR)
FB: Billy Latsko (RSR)
WR: Jemalle Cornelius (RSR), Andre Caldwell (RJR), Dallas Baker (RSR)
OL: Phil Trautwein (JR), Ronnie Wilson (RFR), Steve Rissler (SR), Drew Miller (JR), Carlton Medder (RJR)

DL: Derrick Harvey (RSO), Ray McDonald (RSR), Steven Harris (RSR), Jarvis Moss (RJR)
LB: Earl Everett (SR), Brandon Siler (JR), Brian Crum (RSR)
CB: Reggie Lewis (RSR), Ryan Smith (JR)
S: Reggie Nelson (JR), Tony Joiner (JR)

That's EIGHT fifth-year seniors among the starters ALONE. Shows what happens when you hold on to scholarships for guys who weren't good enough to leave early for the NFL.
 

johnnd05

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When Weis gets the number of recruits he wants at a postion he'll cut it off and pull the offers.

Nobody disagrees with this, of course. I'm sure that he's been perfectly open with his recruits about how many we plan to take at their positions, so they can make their decisions accordingly. What he WON'T do, meanwhile, is mislead a kid about whether there's a spot available for him, or tell him that we can't accept his commitment until we hear back from some other guys.
 

pani_nasz

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Nobody disagrees with this, of course. I'm sure that he's been perfectly open with his recruits about how many we plan to take at their positions, so they can make their decisions accordingly. What he WON'T do, meanwhile, is mislead a kid about whether there's a spot available for him, or tell him that we can't accept his commitment until we hear back from some other guys.
Has it been absolutely substantiated that Cockwad has actually reneged on an offer with the intent of holding it out for an elite prospect, or is this just conjecture? If so, what is the recruit's name?
 

irishunclebill

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Has it been absolutely substantiated that Cockwad has actually reneged on an offer with the intent of holding it out for an elite prospect, or is this just conjecture? If so, what is the recruit's name?


If there is such a thing as conjecture being absolute, then logic would indicate to you that conjecture is more resounding than proof in this case, and no real substantiation is required.

Consider the fact that Florida at last count has 96 offers out, and they are the defending National Champions, and oh by the way they have great bar-b-q's as well.:worship2:
Now, consider the fact that they have only 1 verbal commit on those 96 offers as we approach the middle of May. I don't need to have too much blind faith in any statement to realize that with those facts, I do not need a name as proof as to what Meyer is up to.
 

irishunclebill

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Let me correct myself, the Cockwad is completely out of control. He is now up to a minimum of 109 offers, with 1 commit. Truly amazing.
 

scooper

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Has it been absolutely substantiated that Cockwad has actually reneged on an offer with the intent of holding it out for an elite prospect, or is this just conjecture? If so, what is the recruit's name?

I know one in which he didn't pull an offer, but rather froze it for the sake of waiting on others. That player? Ian Williams. He later unfroze Williams' offer when it was apparent he could use him. By this time, it was too late.
 

scooper

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Re. the question of whether you can win a national championship without fifth-year seniors, I submit the '06-07 Florida Gators (starting lineups from Wikipedia):

QB: Chris Leak (SR)
TB: DeShawn Wynn (RSR)
FB: Billy Latsko (RSR)
WR: Jemalle Cornelius (RSR), Andre Caldwell (RJR), Dallas Baker (RSR)
OL: Phil Trautwein (JR), Ronnie Wilson (RFR), Steve Rissler (SR), Drew Miller (JR), Carlton Medder (RJR)

DL: Derrick Harvey (RSO), Ray McDonald (RSR), Steven Harris (RSR), Jarvis Moss (RJR)
LB: Earl Everett (SR), Brandon Siler (JR), Brian Crum (RSR)
CB: Reggie Lewis (RSR), Ryan Smith (JR)
S: Reggie Nelson (JR), Tony Joiner (JR)

That's EIGHT fifth-year seniors among the starters ALONE. Shows what happens when you hold on to scholarships for guys who weren't good enough to leave early for the NFL.

I'm quoting this just to make sure it's read.



Back to the discussion-my best guess remains 21 guys this year, 22 if there is a transfer.
 

scooper

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If you look at the better teams they don't worry about keeping their seniors for a 5th year because their better players are leaving as juniors for the pro's and their reloading with soph.

john just showed you an example of a NC team loaded with 5th years. I would appreciate it if you could produce an example to substantiate your opinion.
 

johnnd05

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Has it been absolutely substantiated that Cockwad has actually reneged on an offer with the intent of holding it out for an elite prospect, or is this just conjecture? If so, what is the recruit's name?

Since my post didn't accuse anyone of anything, I don't feel the need to respond. But see IUB's replies nonetheless ...
 

johnnd05

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john just showed you an example of a NC team loaded with 5th years. I would appreciate it if you could produce an example to substantiate your opinion.

Thanks, Scoop!

PS. It's good to have you back in (at least nearly) full force.
 

pani_nasz

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If there is such a thing as conjecture being absolute, then logic would indicate to you that conjecture is more resounding than proof in this case, and no real substantiation is required.

Consider the fact that Florida at last count has 96 offers out, and they are the defending National Champions, and oh by the way they have great bar-b-q's as well.:worship2:
Now, consider the fact that they have only 1 verbal commit on those 96 offers as we approach the middle of May. I don't need to have too much blind faith in any statement to realize that with those facts, I do not need a name as proof as to what Meyer is up to.
IUB, your posts are always enlightening, and I respect your insights, and yes, what's going on in Gainesville is highly suspicious, yet it seems to me that if Cockwad persists in "bait and switch" tactics, it will only lead to his undoing over the long run. I would just like to know for certain that recruits have been offered, and then had the offer pulled because they are only a 3* or whatever. If it's true, I think the integrity with which CW recruits will start becoming a factor that separates ND from the rest of the pack.
 

pani_nasz

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I know one in which he didn't pull an offer, but rather froze it for the sake of waiting on others. That player? Ian Williams. He later unfroze Williams' offer when it was apparent he could use him. By this time, it was too late.
Thanks, Scoop. That's the kind of information I've been looking for.
 

rockne19

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Is it true that Urban Liar only has 1 committment so far?just got back and great to see we have banother committ!!!lane really had some big time offers fortson,filer,floyd,newman,etc better hurry up!Spots are filling up!GO IRISH!!!
 

scooper

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I would think the walk - on center Bemenderfer has a better chance to get a scholarship then the possible 5th yr seniors. We Have 11 defensive back coming back next year without counting any freshman all who will have been developed for one more year. It make sense to me to get one more freshman out of the group of Slaughter, Blanton, McCarty, Brown and Byrant than to waste a scholarship on a senior 5th yr back who has been only marginal up to this point in time.
Well, your "marginal" defensive backs are probably still going to start over your coveted young players. Do the coaches start them over those guys out of loyalty or seniority? That would be stupid, wouldn't it? Are you calling our coaches stupid? Lambert will start at corner this year. And if he does, he will get his fifth year if he wants it.

And the same holds true with the line backers which we have 11 of as of now with the possibility of of about 5 more who have better potential than a 5th year senior.
Well, the linebacker in play here as a possible fifth year is Vernaglia. A guy who was brought in is HUGE potential and who has barely seen the field. That should tell you all you need to know about relying on "potential." Now, if something clicks for Vernaglia this year, you'll have a linebacker as athletic as just about any in the country. You really wouldn't want to bring him back? If it doesn't click, the point is moot and he won't be back.

The other guy who I could see being brought back is Justin Brown. Brown had one one of the better spring games out of the entire team. Now, that and $1 will get you a cup of coffee, but it makes him a similar case to Vernaglia. He has a lot of ability. The question is, will he put it together? If so, you keep him. If not, he gets on with his life.

The three guys I mentioned all have something in common-they came in with a lot of potential. Some guys with potential put it together early-some put it together late. Some never put it together at all. Relying on potential is a danerous game.

Let's also mention the fact that 22 year olds are biologically more physically mature than 18 and 19 year olds. There's a reason the NFL is the one sport that doesn't have a way for a bunch of teenagers to enter. They're not physically ready. A few rare exceptions may exist-but they are rare. There's a reason that a senior laden Florida team (fifth years included) just won a title. And if you look closesly, there are a few fifth years there who played a key role, but aren't going to be NFL players. It takes all kinds.

Besides, we're not talking about 10 guys here. We're talking about 3 or so potential guys who will only be brought back if they EARN a starting role. If they are proven starters, why not bring them back?

Another thing it would do is allow for a larger class in 09. Without doing the math, if this class comes in at 25 players, we're looking at somewhere along the lines of 13 guys in 09. And this would be a pretty hard cap. No early entrees or fifth year decisions would help. The 09 class will already be small. Bringing in 25 in 08 would make it tiny.

Bringing back a few fifth years would allow for more balance in future classes.
 

johnnd05

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Is it true that Urban Liar only has 1 committment so far?just got back and great to see we have banother committ!!!lane really had some big time offers fortson,filer,floyd,newman,etc better hurry up!Spots are filling up!GO IRISH!!!

Rockne, I think I've said this before, but you are hands-down the most entertaining poster on the board. Reps to you for your unmitigated enthusiasm.
 

irishunclebill

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IUB, your posts are always enlightening, and I respect your insights, and yes, what's going on in Gainesville is highly suspicious, yet it seems to me that if Cockwad persists in "bait and switch" tactics, it will only lead to his undoing over the long run. I would just like to know for certain that recruits have been offered, and then had the offer pulled because they are only a 3* or whatever. If it's true, I think the integrity with which CW recruits will start becoming a factor that separates ND from the rest of the pack.


I agree and I am very hopeful that it will catch up with him sooner rather than later. The problem with identifying specifics (other than the Ian Williams situation) is that it is almost impossible for a recruit to commit to a school like ND, and then admit that he would have gone to Florida but Meyer turned him down. It does not really put you in a great light with the school you choose if you acknowledge at the same time that you commit, that the school was actually your second choice. What will happen though is there will be rumblings among the recruits, their coaches, and their parents about what Meyer is doing, and that will eventually come back to haunt him.

This is pure conjecture on my part, and is not substantiated by facts or even rumors, but I have a feeling that Sweat lost a lot of his at one time purported overwhelming love for Florida because of the strong possibility that they would not accept an early commit from him. As I said, I have no basis for that, just a gut feeling.
 

GoshenGipper

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This is how I would like the rest of the class to fill out.

1 RB

2 WR

1 OL (Preferably a Tackle)

2 DL (At least 1 NT)

1 LB (Maybe 2 if ND can land A.Brown and another top prospect)

2 CB ( Maybe 3 if ND can land all Blanton, J.Brown, and Slaughter)

1 S (Slaughter and Blanton could both be sloted here as well if ND doesn't land McCarthy)
 

pani_nasz

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This is how I would like the rest of the class to fill out.

1 RB

2 WR

1 OL (Preferably a Tackle)

2 DL (At least 1 NT)

1 LB (Maybe 2 if ND can land A.Brown and another top prospect)

2 CB ( Maybe 3 if ND can land all Blanton, J.Brown, and Slaughter)

1 S (Slaughter and Blanton could both be sloted here as well if ND doesn't land McCarthy)
That would be 22 total - - - sounds about right in that it leaves some wiggle room for next year.
 

Jason Pham

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IUB, your posts are always enlightening, and I respect your insights, and yes, what's going on in Gainesville is highly suspicious, yet it seems to me that if Cockwad persists in "bait and switch" tactics, it will only lead to his undoing over the long run. I would just like to know for certain that recruits have been offered, and then had the offer pulled because they are only a 3* or whatever. If it's true, I think the integrity with which CW recruits will start becoming a factor that separates ND from the rest of the pack.

His tactics are, ipso facto, leading to his undoing, at least in the earliest stages, of this recruiting cycle. A handful of recruits who were once high on Florida are now reconsidering their options as it becomes clear to them the tactics used by Cockwad and Co.
 

kjones

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This is how I would like the rest of the class to fill out.

1 RB

2 WR

1 OL (Preferably a Tackle)

2 DL (At least 1 NT)

1 LB (Maybe 2 if ND can land A.Brown and another top prospect)

2 CB ( Maybe 3 if ND can land all Blanton, J.Brown, and Slaughter)

1 S (Slaughter and Blanton could both be sloted here as well if ND doesn't land McCarthy)

I'm just not sure if i see us taking 3 WR's in this class. I'd prefer to trade out that spot for another big OL recruit so we could get another guard and tackle. Of course, I would not be surprised at all if CW takes 2 RB, with one being a bigger guy, and another faster one that could also be a WR/DB possibly as well. Other than that I think your list will be pretty accurate, but we'll see :). This staff seems to really like interchangable parts and guys who have the ability to try more than one position and that can change what the numbers at each position look like from the outside.
 

scooper

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I'm just not sure if i see us taking 3 WR's in this class. I'd prefer to trade out that spot for another big OL recruit so we could get another guard and tackle. Of course, I would not be surprised at all if CW takes 2 RB, with one being a bigger guy, and another faster one that could also be a WR/DB possibly as well. Other than that I think your list will be pretty accurate, but we'll see :). This staff seems to really like interchangable parts and guys who have the ability to try more than one position and that can change what the numbers at each position look like from the outside.

I used to think that way until spring practice. WR is important and needs to be well fed.
 

GoshenGipper

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I'm just not sure if i see us taking 3 WR's in this class. I'd prefer to trade out that spot for another big OL recruit so we could get another guard and tackle. Of course, I would not be surprised at all if CW takes 2 RB, with one being a bigger guy, and another faster one that could also be a WR/DB possibly as well. Other than that I think your list will be pretty accurate, but we'll see :). This staff seems to really like interchangable parts and guys who have the ability to try more than one position and that can change what the numbers at each position look like from the outside.

Given the offers that ND has out right now, and who they have on the roster I think ND should an will take 2 of the following guys if they can get them. Brice Butler, Michael Floyd, Julio Jones, Jonathan Baldwin, Martavious Odoms, A.J. Alexander, or maybe even Gerell Robinson.
 

irishunclebill

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I used to think that way until spring practice. WR is important and needs to be well fed.

I agree. I think the WR slot is almost as important to ND's success as QB. If CW could end up with Floyd/Butler/Baldwin, in addition to John Goodman, I am sure he would take them all in a heartbeat. The WR's are usually some of the most elite athletes in any recruiting class, but in 2008 that is even more the case, with a good possibility that 10 of the Top 50 consensus national recruits this year will be WR's. ESPN 150 currently has 7 WR's in their Top 20, and that does not even include the likes of Kenny Tate, Brice Butler, or Martavious Odoms. This is going to be a big recruiting year for this group, and I'm not sure the ND staff would be happy with only 1 more WR recruit. I'm hoping for the best on Floyd, and if not Floyd, I have to believe that CW will land at least one of those guys currently offered, but the problem is that none of them appear to be a lead pipe cinch, which leads to a strong possibility that the Irish may have to delve into the 2nd tier to meet their needs.
 
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rontdtarchala

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As far as potential goes I think it was only the last two years of recruiting that I heard all kinds of praise for our incoming wr's...so what happened cause honestly guys I wasn't all that impressed from what I saw. And also I am confused because I came away from the B&G game kinda unimpressed yet many people talk about how well it went...I'm confused...but I can say this...potential is a slippery slope...they may be great they may blow chunks...thats how I think some of these schools can keep top flite kids comming in even though they have so many people in those positions...they may or may not pan out and they use those terms to new possible recruites
 

GoshenGipper

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As far as potential goes I think it was only the last two years of recruiting that I heard all kinds of praise for our incoming wr's...so what happened cause honestly guys I wasn't all that impressed from what I saw. And also I am confused because I came away from the B&G game kinda unimpressed yet many people talk about how well it went...I'm confused...but I can say this...potential is a slippery slope...they may be great they may blow chunks...thats how I think some of these schools can keep top flite kids comming in even though they have so many people in those positions...they may or may not pan out and they use those terms to new possible recruites

Well most of the current WRs are still very young, and the gameplan for the B/G game was designed for them to make big plays, so with the exception of a few drops I don't think we can really know that much about how well they will perform in the future.
 

scooper

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WR is a tough position to master when making a jump from one level to the next. This is why rookies rarely make a huge impact as pros, but you see a lot of vet guys coming out of nowhere. Hopefully some current guys develop. It's a bit too early to call any of them wasted yet. But there is much work to be done, that's for sure.
 

irishunclebill

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As far as potential goes I think it was only the last two years of recruiting that I heard all kinds of praise for our incoming wr's...so what happened cause honestly guys I wasn't all that impressed from what I saw. And also I am confused because I came away from the B&G game kinda unimpressed yet many people talk about how well it went...I'm confused...but I can say this...potential is a slippery slope...they may be great they may blow chunks...thats how I think some of these schools can keep top flite kids comming in even though they have so many people in those positions...they may or may not pan out and they use those terms to new possible recruites

I'm not so sure about the praise factor for the last 2 years even. WR recruiting to date for CW has to be one of his more disappointing areas. The 2006 group was not highly rated as a whole with Gallup, Parris, West, and Jackson all basically 3 star recruits. That is not to say that none of them will turn out to be good college WR's, it is way too early to determine that, but they were certainly not among the elite WR recruits that year. The 2007 group was a big improvement from the elite recruit standpoint, but the loss of Greg Little certainly diminished that impact. Basically, the 2007 class is left with only one pure WR, Kamara, who remember is not at ND yet. The 2006 group and the Little defection will almost certainly result in Golden Tate playing a WR when he arrives. Also, do not be surprised to see Ragone playing WR, especially with the 2008 TE's already committed. Ragone has the speed to play WR with no problem. He just ran a 10.7 100 for his HS track team, and if you end up with 3 WR's the likes of Kamara, Tate, and Ragone from the 2007 class, that would have to be considered an upgrade, again at least from the standpoint of recruiting elite athletes to the position. In order for that to continue as you said, you need to recruit at least 1 or 2 of these guys every year, and ND seems to have as good a shot as anybody as getting Floyd & Butler, but if they fail to get either one, the WR recruiting for 2008 will also be most likely looked upon as a disappointment.
 
I

IrishCalves

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WR is a tough position to master when making a jump from one level to the next. This is why rookies rarely make a huge impact as pros, but you see a lot of vet guys coming out of nowhere. Hopefully some current guys develop. It's a bit too early to call any of them wasted yet. But there is much work to be done, that's for sure.

Remember some of the big name WR recruits of years past? Xavier Carter? Fred Rouse? Both were fantastic athletes, but they couldn't adjust to the college game. They were too raw - or immature - to translate their skills to the gridiron at WR.

I think thats why I'm hoping we get Butler, almost as much as Floyd. Floyd is in there, because he's among the first offers at WR, and said that ND is in the lead. But Butler knows proper technique. His Dad has helped him get the coaching he needs for the next level, and won't be a project.

That in mind, here's how I envision the rest of the class breaking down - even though I'd personally rather it be slightly different:

QB: 1 total, we're all wrapped up.

TE: 2 total, we're all wrapped up.

RB: 1 total, 1 more to go. Our RB's look to be at least 3 deep after this season is over. If Jabbie sticks around - which is doubtful, but possible - then its 4. Still, being 3 deep leaves us in pretty decent shape, and lets us be picky about who we bring in. Odds are we're waiting for the next recruiting season to go after more than 1 back, perhaps Golden Tate's little brother. That in mind, I'm guessing we bring in Carlton Thomas.

WR: 3 total, 2 more to go. While we have a lot of #'s here, nobody has taken advantage of Shark, Stovall, and McKnight moving on. We still don't have a ton of faith in the 1 guy we're starting, and the other spot remains unfulfilled. With the signal callers we've got, this shouldn't be, and Charlie looks pretty serious about amending this. Look for both Brice Butler and Michael Floyd to head to South Bend, as my predictions.

OL: 4 total, 1 more to go. Given the OL defections of Stewart, Nuss, and Nwankwo, I particularly wish we were going after more bodies here. I'd rather see us going after 2 more lineman, and maybe 1 less DL, but thats just me. We've got the center position taken care of with Golic and/or Cave, and have a tackle on board with Clelland. I look for Kenneth Page to be the last lineman taken in. Patchan would be nice, but we've only got two true offensive guards on the roster, something Page looks to translate as at the next level.

DL: 5 total, 3 more to go. Again, I wish that with Nwankwo and Nuss, they'd be aiming for 4 DL, but Weis has told at least one DL recruit (Goebel?) that they're hoping to land 5 guys, so I'll take his word for it. To fill out the rest of this group, I'm looking at Newman, Goebel, and I'll take a flier on Forston. If Forston does end up where most people expect him, however, I'm thinking Kapron Lewis-Moore comes in at DE, and Hafis slides to NT as his HS coach predicts.

LB: 4 total, 1 more to go. A lot of the guys we have on the roster at LB don't really fit the 3-4 mold. Tyrone recruited a lot of LB's that tend to look more like Cover 2 LB's in a 4-3: quick, small, and built for coverage moreso than pass rushing. So the #'s there are a bit deceiving, so two classes in a row with 4 LB's makes sense. I'll go ahead and pencil in Filer for now, but I won't be surprised if Corwin can work his magic, and land an Arthur Brown. Predicting who comes in here is looking much harder than a month ago.

DB: 2 total, 2 to go. I wish the #'s here were higher, and that we hadn't taken an extra verbal at TE (no offense to Fauria, he's a very impressive guy from what I gather), but whats done is done. If we go to 23 total scholarships, I think we take in a 3rd DB. We could lose up to 3 corners this year, with 2 looking like pretty solid bets to leave, so we may have some depth issues #'s wise. Blanton looks like a real good bet to come on board, with Slaughter and McCarthy being 2A and 2B, I just can't tell yet.
 
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