Lower academic standards at ND

Lower academic standards at ND

  • Hell no, keep it the way it is

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, in the words of a wonderful leader, "It's time for change".

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Not sure, I still have a headache from drinking too much

    Votes: 3 8.3%
  • a:3:{i:489;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:489;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2881952";s:5:"title";s:30:"Hell no, keep

    Votes: 29 80.6%

  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .

tgolden

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that's right. that's what I recall. the south bend tribune includes test scores usually in the signing day profiles. i thought mcknight's were decent, but I couldn't remember the exact number. that sounds about right though.

but still, when you consider the ND student average, I don't know what it is for sure, maybe 1400 or something, I don't think ND needs to lower anything.
 

notredomer23

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1020 for his class was above the mean. The AVERAGE for his class was about 960.

are you serious?!?! my sisters friend got 1380 and plays softball really good and got differed. did you just mean for the football team? O yeah and btw my sister got in with a 1480. Just thought i should say that since we were sayin the sat scores
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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are you serious?!?! my sisters friend got 1380 and plays softball really good and got differed. did you just mean for the football team? O yeah and btw my sister got in with a 1480. Just thought i should say that since we were sayin the sat scores

Love your usertitle!! LOL
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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are you serious?!?! my sisters friend got 1380 and plays softball really good and got differed. did you just mean for the football team? O yeah and btw my sister got in with a 1480. Just thought i should say that since we were sayin the sat scores

Hang on...we might be comparing apples and oranges here.

When McKnight applied the SAT topped out at 1600. It has been changed since then I believe.

So when the TOP score was a 1600, the football team averaged 960.

If your sister and her friend applied about that time or earlier...than yeah, you are right.

The football team's average SAT is pretty abysmal.
 

irishunclebill

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Hang on...we might be comparing apples and oranges here.

When McKnight applied the SAT topped out at 1600. It has been changed since then I believe.

So when the TOP score was a 1600, the football team averaged 960.

If your sister and her friend applied about that time or earlier...than yeah, you are right.

The football team's average SAT is pretty abysmal.


The current SAT tops out at 2400, with the addition of a third test which is basically the old English Achievement Test or SAT II. However, since this addition is relatively new most schools still list the average SAT for the two original Math & English SAT's (which still max out at 1600) as an indicator as to how high you need to score in order to qualify for a given school.

For ND23's sister to have been accepted at ND, she would have had to have had a 1480 (out of 1600) on the two original tests. Notre Dame supplies a average SAT number, again out of 1600, to High School Guidance Counselors around the country to post for their students to consider whether they are qualified (based on SAT scores only) to apply to ND. For the current High School Junior Class that guideline is 1369, which is the average scores of incoming freshman to ND for the last 2 years. The important thing to remember is that is the average number. Legacies and athletes get preferential treatment in the admissions process, and ND admits close to 20% legacies each year in addition to athletes. Therefore, if you are not an athlete or a legacy, your SAT is most likely going to have to be closer to a 1450 on the 1600 scale in order to be accepted to ND. This number is increasing every year because of the ever increasing academic popularity of Notre Dame.

However, there are a lot of other variables involved in the admission process, including HS curriculum, community service resume, religious affiliation, HS athletics & leadership background, and because ND pulls students from all over the country geographic location is also a key element at times. So in some cases, a 1450 might not be needed for a non-legacy, non-athlete, and in other cases 1450 is not enough. ND is unique in that when you apply there, you are competing with kids from all over the country, as well as those in your own school. As an example, a non-legacy, non-athlete HS student in the Chicago suburbs who has the same SAT scores and a similar resume as a HS student in rural South Carolina is actually going to have a more difficult time getting accepted to ND than the South Carolina student because the competition for ND slots in the Chicago suburbs is much more intense, and because Notre Dame is committed to having admitted students from all over the country.

Sometimes you are a victim of how many kids apply at your local high school. I know of one example where 3 female students applied from the same school, 1 Catholic legacy with an SAT of 1200, 1 Catholic non-legacy with an SAT of 1490 and a class standing in the top 10%, and 1 non-Catholic, non-legacy with an SAT of 1520 and a class standing in the Top 5%. The first two were accepted, the third one was not, even though she had the best academic qualifications. The third girl was not accepted because the school in question usually does not get more than 2 ND acceptances a year, and the differences between her and the second girl were not significant enough to overcome the favorable element of the second girl being Catholic.

The bottom line for any High School student seriously considering ND is to apply as long as your SAT is at least 1200, you are passionate about the idea of attending ND, and you have a well rounded background both in and out of school. I know for a fact that the admissions process is a very personal task for the ND admissions staff, a computer never decides the final answer, and it is a group process at the end to see who makes the cut.
 
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Irish52

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First, you lower academic standards. Second, you design degrees to suit the player, such as a BS in Basketweaving or BS in Ballroom Dancing. Third, you tarnish the Golden Dome forever. Fourth, you reduce the graduation rate of athletes by the same percentage of those for whom you lowered the standards. I could go on...but, is that what you really want. In my opinion, the standards should remain as is......we will field a winning team if for no other reason than having "smart players".
 

tgolden

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Sometimes you are a victim of how many kids apply at your local high school. I know of one example where 3 female students applied from the same school, 1 Catholic legacy with an SAT of 1200, 1 Catholic non-legacy with an SAT of 1490 and a class standing in the top 10%, and 1 non-Catholic, non-legacy with an SAT of 1520 and a class standing in the Top 5%. The first two were accepted, the third one was not, even though she had the best academic qualifications. The third girl was not accepted because the school in question usually does not get more than 2 ND acceptances a year, and the differences between her and the second girl were not significant enough to overcome the favorable element of the second girl being Catholic.


everything else you said sounded very accurate and very true. however, ND does not set a quota for the number of students it accepts from a certain high school, and I guarantee it would not accept someone less qualified just because they are Catholic. Legacies get preferance. non-legacy Catholics do not. of this I am positive. I'm sure ND looked at what class schedule the students were taking as well as what extracurriculars they were involved in along with a personal essay, letters of recomendation and test scores/GPA/class rank.


and Irish52, I agree with you 100%.
 

irishunclebill

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everything else you said sounded very accurate and very true. however, ND does not set a quota for the number of students it accepts from a certain high school, and I guarantee it would not accept someone less qualified just because they are Catholic. Legacies get preferance. non-legacy Catholics do not. of this I am positive. I'm sure ND looked at what class schedule the students were taking as well as what extracurriculars they were involved in along with a personal essay, letters of recomendation and test scores/GPA/class rank.


and Irish52, I agree with you 100%.

Tgolden- I did not say quota, I said usually 2, that is not a set quota. I also did not say that the second girl was less qualified than the third one, I only said that the third girls's "academic qualifications" were the highest. If all other variables were equal between the second girl and the third girl, then I am certain that both of them would have been accepted. Which is why as you said correctly there is no quota, but each geographic region is given a certain number of slots that they are expected to conform to, and that is the reason why certain schools have about the same number of admitted students each year, sometimes less, but usually not more. Don't kid yourself though, Catholicism is a factor, it has to be if the University expects to maintain the Catholic level of the student body at 85%. I personally know the people involved in the instance I cited and I am pretty certain that Catholicism was in fact the deciding factor in this case.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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Don't kid yourself though, Catholicism is a factor, it has to be if the University expects to maintain the Catholic level of the student body at 85%. I personally know the people involved in the instance I cited and I am pretty certain that Catholicism was in fact the deciding factor in this case.

Have no doubt this IS the case. Catholics do get some preference. That's not wrong, it just is what it is.
 

irishunclebill

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Have no doubt this IS the case. Catholics do get some preference. That's not wrong, it just is what it is.

LMI- I agree 100%, and just to clarify, I agree that it is not wrong. Notre Dame has every right to maintain a level of Catholicism in order to maintain its' Catholic roots and tradition. There was a recent article published in Notre Dame magazine that detailed how this policy extends to the faculty as well, although the University is having a very difficult time maintaining a level for the faculty for numerous reasons. What I admire about Notre Dame is that it does not try to hide these facts, they are right up front about it, and will give you the exact information as well.

This relates to the legacy factor as well. When I was taking my daughter around to see various schools prior to her selecting Notre Dame, one of the questions that is always asked by parents at admissions information sessions is what is the legacy admit %. Without fail at every school except ND, the admissions staff would give some non-specific answer and refuse to be pinned down at a certain % even though it is public information. Boston College was the worst, the admissions rep there would only say that she was sure that BC's legacy admit % was lower than other similar schools. (hint ND, Georgetown, Fordham etc.) As it turns out BC's legacy admit % at the time (4 years ago) was 23%. Notre Dame was the exception. As soon as the question was asked, the answer was given, 18-20% each year, and that was immediately followed by the reason why, with no apologies. Notre Dame alumni are the most generous per capita alumni in the country, their generosity makes the University grow, and allows the University to be very generous in offering Financial Aid packages to students who would never be able to attend ND otherwise. Therefore, their children are entitled to and will receive preferential admissions treatment.

The honesty of that ND Admissions officer convinced me that Notre Dame was the best place for my daughter. Fortunately she agreed with me, although for a lot of other different reasons.
 

tgolden

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well, I'm glad she didn't decide BC was the best place;)

but while it may be a very small factor, I think a big reason ND is 85% Catholic is because a large majority of the students who apply here are Catholic. i could be completely wrong on that, but that is my impression. maybe if absolutely everything else was exactly equal then admissions would consider religion, but other than that, I really don't think they care.

but it's that same honesty of the admissions office that you mentioned that convinces me that they do not care if they've already admitted their typical number from a certain high school. there was an issue with that not with my class but with a class a few years before me and after someone that I know well talked to some admissions people, they were told that the fact that a certain number from the school had already been accepted to ND had nothing to do with the fact that another person was not accepted.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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maybe if absolutely everything else was exactly equal then admissions would consider religion, but other than that, I really don't think they care.

they care very much...

The way to think of it is this:
1) The person with all the best stats/info/background will not necessarily get in
2) ND uses a BAR...if you cross it, you are in consideration
3) Then admissions looks at all who made it over the bar...and they will review everything about that person.
4) You can bet your bottom dollar that being Catholic buys you something in that process.

It's not about getting the best student on paper...it's about looking at them as a whole. However, it's not about ranking them 1-2,000...it's about making sure that 2000 is the mix you want.

It *IS* a type of quota system to ensure ND retains the demographic look it wants. Be that race, color, religion, geography, interest in major, etc.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I would much rather have ND let athletes slide a little (if the football program was in dire need) than have a school use quotas for race/gender/ethnicity. What ever happened to EQUAL rights? Should it not apply to everyone in the same manner (except for football). :)
 

tgolden

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I think with the whole SAT thing, we already pointed out that football players and other athletes already have lower standards of admission. excluding walk-ons, maybe only a handful of football players if that would probably have been admitted if they weren't athletes. that's not to say they aren't capable of competing with everyone else once they get here. the athletes here are not dumb by any means. but there has to be some sort of minimum or they won't survive academically once they get here, in which case they might as well never have come. why accept a guy if he's gonna flunk out after his first semester? unless you want to create joke classes so these guys can pass, in which case, what would happen to ND's whole academic mission?
 
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goldenlid

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Just saw on PTI the head basketball say Mayo wants to be there because it was where he could market himself the best for the NBA. I bring this up because when you lower your standards school is not a place for higher learning anymore. It is a shame when this happens and I hope ND does not lower there standards.
 
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goldenlid

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Head coach of USC, and I am not bashing them it's just that this does not help this kid and this is wrong.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I love standards at schools, and I'm glad ND doesn't let people like me in. Dammit, I also want to win. I guess we need to recruit smarter, and win against the top echelon.
 

portlaNDgal

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I think with the whole SAT thing, we already pointed out that football players and other athletes already have lower standards of admission. excluding walk-ons, maybe only a handful of football players if that would probably have been admitted if they weren't athletes. that's not to say they aren't capable of competing with everyone else once they get here. the athletes here are not dumb by any means. but there has to be some sort of minimum or they won't survive academically once they get here, in which case they might as well never have come. why accept a guy if he's gonna flunk out after his first semester? unless you want to create joke classes so these guys can pass, in which case, what would happen to ND's whole academic mission?

Exactly. I think it's important to remember that not every young man or woman values education the same. Their parents don't always think it's important either. If a kid only has eyes for a pro carreer, he's not gonna care when he hears a coach maunder about good grades and going to class.

Part of Coach Weis's approach is to really get to know the parents, and I'm sure one reason is to assess how much they value education.
 

kjones

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Exactly. I think it's important to remember that not every young man or woman values education the same. Their parents don't always think it's important either. If a kid only has eyes for a pro carreer, he's not gonna care when he hears a coach maunder about good grades and going to class.

Part of Coach Weis's approach is to really get to know the parents, and I'm sure one reason is to assess how much they value education.

The benefit here is that only a very small fraction of guys who play college ball ever have a pro career. It is then that having an education can help you out a lot. You never know what can happen in your football career, and the smarter kids know it's better to have a safety net. But that doesn't necessarily mean Notre Dame. There are smart kids having real majors at other schools as well, they just also have to resist the urge to take "Football 101" and other cake-walk classes.
 

MirageSmack

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This link may have been posted before, but I thought it interesting. It is from April of 2006.

http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/...cedomain=www.ndsmcobserver.com&200604101220&s

After looking at some of the numbers, it confirms what many of you are saying. A perfect SAT of 1600--turned down for ND. :( ABout 50% of all valedictorians --truned down for ND.:( Those wereon page 3.

Now my 8th grader is scared to death. She plans to attend ND, and is entering her HS ranked #3 based on placement test. :rock:
 
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