2016 Presidential Horse Race

[NDinL.A.]

She isn't out of the woods, and I've commented here before that I don't think Obama wants her in the White House.

In 2008 Obama made the DNC his party after the Clintons having it for two decades. Remember how ugly that campaign was? Does he really want to give the party back to the Clintons?

Imagine the shitshow if she gets indicted this summer.

There is a podcast I enjoy on the Bill Simmons network, and the podcasters worked for Obama in the WH. They have gone in depth on the 2008 (ugly) campaign and then the subsequent working relationship between Obama and Clinton, and they are adamant that Obama is backing her, especially considering the alternative is Trump.

 

[brick4956]

Maine Democratic Party Abolishes Superdelegates

Basically abolished the superdelegate system through some type of amendment

 

[GoIrish41]

Corporations are not greedy, people are. I have a skill that pays well, so that is where my interests lie. I'm not "duped" about anything. But again............. you certainly appear to be demanding that everyone with a job make a living wage? Retail is traditionally not a living wage occupation, unless you are in a retail management. You appear to want to force all of the companies in the country to provide square pegs with square holes............. even when the square pegs sign up for a position that has round holes. Good luck with that....

Maybe I can't keep up with the latest republican line ... I thought corporations are people. At least they are when they are throwing money at politicians and calling it free speech. But not when they are actively seeking to pay employees poor wages and are personified as greedy? Every person who works full time should make enough to live on. That's just basic humanity. Otherwise, what kind of horrible lives are we consigning people to? And on top of all that, folks get all bent out of shape because people prefer welfare to working for less money. The way to fix that problem is to raise the minimum wage so going to work is a benefit and not a punishment.

You are duped if you believe that is not a system engineered through corruption of our politics for and by corporate entities. That is not benefitting you and I it is crushing poor people. But who gets all the benefit? Greedy corporations are running this country, and the longer it goes on the harder it will be to reverse our path. I don't want to think about how bad this path could be for everyone I know.

You are duped because you are convinced that the same tired policies that led us to where we find ourselves today -- proven ineffective over decades -- are the prescription to getting us out of this mess. Folks are suffering all over this country and my adult life has been in observation of how harmful willfully handing over the country to fewer and fewer people has been.

Politicians are just game pieces as long as they are unwilling to change the game. We've tried it your way. It didn't work. Let's do something different than making people's lives worse while simultaneously making our power brokers fabulously wealthy. History will tell you that we do best when we pull people out of poverty and build the middle class.

The corporate world has had a great run. It's about time for the people to take this country back.

 

[GATTACA!]

 

[Legacy]

Tax havens.... Walmart operates worldwide. 6000+ stores and almost a million employees. If I'm Walmart, why the hell do I want to bring my money back into the US with all the talk about redistribution of wealth.

It's a global economy like it or not. Companies can choose to operate where they want. I'd love to close the loopholes that a lot of companies hide in. Guess who wants to do that. But at the same time, screw with business too much and they will take their ball and go somewhere else.

You may be interested in the OECD's Base Erosion and Profit Shifting action plan.

In an increasingly interconnected world, national tax laws have not always kept pace with global corporations, fluid movement of capital, and the rise of the digital economy, leaving gaps and mismatches that can be exploited to generate double non-taxation. This undermines the fairness and integrity of tax systems.

Base Erosion and Profit Shifting (BEPS) refers to tax planning strategies that exploit these gaps and mismatches in tax rules to artificially shift profits to low or no-tax locations where there is little or no economic activity, resulting in little or no overall corporate tax being paid. BEPS is of major significance for developing countries due to their heavy reliance on corporate income tax, particularly from multinational enterprises (MNEs).

Research undertaken since 2013 confirms the potential magnitude of the BEPS problem. Estimates conservatively indicate annual losses of anywhere from 4 - 10% of global corporate income tax (CIT) revenues, i.e. USD 100 to 240 billion annually.

BEPS is a global problem which requires global solutions. For the first time ever in tax matters, OECD and G20 countries worked together on an equal footing. More than a dozen developing countries have participated directly in the work and more than 80 non-OECD, non-G20 jurisdictions have provided input.

Fifteen actions equip governments with the domestic and international instruments needed to tackle BEPS. The final BEPS package gives countries the tools they need to ensure that profits are taxed where economic activities generating the profits are performed and where value is created, while at the same time give business greater certainty by reducing disputes over the application of international tax rules, and standardising compliance requirements.

Here's a link to BEPS Action Plan's specifics on closing corporate tax loopholes, tax havens, and tax breaks from overseas operations to lower their taxes in other countries.

The EU is looking at sweetheart tax deals of some of their countries (Luxembourg), which disadvantage other member countries. EU countries are aggressively pursuing multinationals for back taxes on these tax avoidance schemes. Bermuda has signed on to OECD's tax transparency code. Some of the presidential candidates advocate a single time "repatriation tax" (10-15%) so that the Multinationals can move the money back to the U.S. Of course, the Multinationals moved it out to avoid a 35% tax, so that would benefit them by 20-25%. OECD countries want them to pay taxes in the countries where the revenue was made, instead of moving it offshore through tax avoidance schemes and paying 1-2% instead of the 15-20% low tax rates the countries (like Ireland) bargained for.

Check out the BEPS action plan.

Also, European Commission's Tax Avoidance Package directives and strategies (Jan 2016)

Google, Amazon, Starbucks: The rise of 'tax shaming'

Amazon, which had sales in the UK of £3.35bn in 2011, only reported a "tax expense" of £1.8m.
And Google's UK unit paid just £6m to the Treasury in 2011 on UK turnover of £395m.

Multinational tech companies only paying 7.6 percent effective tax in Australia

 

[phgreek]

You may be interested in the OECD's Base Erosion and Profit Shifting action plan.


Here's a link to BEPS Action Plan's specifics on closing corporate tax loopholes, tax havens, and tax breaks from overseas operations to lower their taxes in other countries.

The EU is looking at sweetheart tax deals of some of their countries (Luxembourg), which disadvantage other member countries. EU countries are aggressively pursuing multinationals for back taxes on these tax avoidance schemes. Bermuda has signed on to OECD's tax transparency code. Some of the presidential candidates advocate a single time "repatriation tax" (10-15%) so that the Multinationals can move the money back to the U.S. Of course, the Multinationals moved it out to avoid a 35% tax, so that would benefit them by 20-25%. OECD countries want them to pay taxes in the countries where the revenue was made, instead of moving it offshore through tax avoidance schemes and paying 1-2% instead of the 15-20% low tax rates the countries (like Ireland) bargained for.

Check out the BEPS action plan.

Also, European Commission's Tax Avoidance Package directives and strategies (Jan 2016)

Google, Amazon, Starbucks: The rise of 'tax shaming'

Multinational tech companies only paying 7.6 percent effective tax in Australia

make DoD's budget tied to the issue...and let them enforce. Problem solved.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

So I'm just a noob, so someone simply explain to me how if you don't regulate the cost of living-housing rent/own-consumables. How will $15 make any difference. Also only way $15 actually help people is if Free healthcare happened first. Only way Bernie can do that is to pass all the new laws. Breaking up big banks(I'm to dumb to know what that even means) new tax laws, killing loopholes for taxes and whatever else I'm forgetting at the moment.

So pass multiple new laws, pass a new free healthcare bill, pass government mandated $15 min wage(without passing a regulation bill I don't see how it changes things) then he can pass free education. It took Obama a few years just to get w/e the fuck Obamacare is to pass right?

Another ?, how does a $15 min wage effect every mom n pop shop who currently pay between 11-17HR. Just simply tell employess hey sry you now make same as the (trigger warning) barely english speaking person at mcdonalds, but atleast youre not flipping burgers.

I'm just a poor white boy, Berns plan fits my family needs exactly. While id love all the free shit cuz I'm lazy and $15 for a shit job, I acknowledge I don't deserve it simply cuz I failed at the game of life. Plus I don't believe any of it is truly achievable. Also he's a pandering joke. I find it comical at the Trump promotes racism, while Bernie literally has people standing next to him at rallys holding racist hate group signs. Shits on police constantly to win that black vote. Protestors openly supporting Sanders burning American flags, waving Mexican flags(which is just amusing on its own)Yelling at veterans, lil kids flicking off veterans, brown pride, lil kids with the Make America Mexico Again(which again amusing on its own). I'm not some hard on Patriot whose all America or go fuck yourself, but you know what America or go fuck yourself

 

[kmoose]

You are duped because you are convinced that the same tired policies that led us to where we find ourselves today -- proven ineffective over decades -- are the prescription to getting us out of this mess. Folks are suffering all over this country and my adult life has been in observation of how harmful willfully handing over the country to fewer and fewer people has been.

Politicians are just game pieces as long as they are unwilling to change the game. We've tried it your way. It didn't work. Let's do something different than making people's lives worse while simultaneously making our power brokers fabulously wealthy. History will tell you that we do best when we pull people out of poverty and build the middle class.

The corporate world has had a great run. It's about time for the people to take this country back.

You and your anti-corporate rants again. Because corporations are buying up political influence through massive campaign donations? Guess who else is guilty of that? LABOR UNIONS.. you know, "the people"?

In 2012, there were 18 "entities"(businesses and organizations) that contributed over $10M to political campaigns in this country. Of those 18, NINE were labor unions! ( https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?cycle=2012) So whatever influence you may complain about businesses buying, your outrage should be mirrored for "the people". And if that purchased influence is the cause for the mess we are currently in, then "the people" share an equal part of the blame.

Every person who works full time should make enough to live on. That's just basic humanity. Otherwise, what kind of horrible lives are we consigning people to? And on top of all that, folks get all bent out of shape because people prefer welfare to working for less money. The way to fix that problem is to raise the minimum wage so going to work is a benefit and not a punishment.

No, it's not just basic humanity. You aren't owed enough money to raise a family on, just because you spend 40 hours a week as a cashier at the movie theater. We don't live in a caste system. People are free to better their employment opportunities and the wages that go with them. Not every job is going to pay enough to support a family. That's not a Republican or Democratic thing; it's a common sense thing for people who live in the real world, and not some utopian fantasy world that only exists in their minds.

 

[GoIrish41]

You and your anti-corporate rants again. Because corporations are buying up political influence through massive campaign donations? Guess who else is guilty of that? LABOR UNIONS.. you know, "the people"?

In 2012, there were 18 "entities"(businesses and organizations) that contributed over $10M to political campaigns in this country. Of those 18, NINE were labor unions! ( https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?cycle=2012) So whatever influence you may complain about businesses buying, your outrage should be mirrored for "the people". And if that purchased influence is the cause for the mess we are currently in, then "the people" share an equal part of the blame.




No, it's not just basic humanity. You aren't owed enough money to raise a family on, just because you spend 40 hours a week as a cashier at the movie theater. We don't live in a caste system. People are free to better their employment opportunities and the wages that go with them. Not every job is going to pay enough to support a family. That's not a Republican or Democratic thing; it's a common sense thing for people who live in the real world, and not some utopian fantasy world that only exists in their minds.

When I was a kid, manufacturing jobs that paid fair wages were abundant. That cashier at a movie theater today would easily have had a job gluing the rear view mirror onto the interior windshield of Buicks for 40 hours a week (highly technical skill, I know, so they obviously developed themselves to handle the rigors of this complex profession, just as their compatriots on the assembly line who installed tires and floor mats did). These folks make enough to raise a family and kept the economy humming for the good of the whole country. We live in a service based economy now because greedy bastards who run these companies shipped the decent paying manufacturing jobs overseas so they could pay people $2 an hour to to glue those mirrors onto windshields. Their greed turned our middle class on its ear and now you defend them like none of that ever happened.

Corporations, with the help of politicians made the decision that their wealth was more important than shared prosperity of the country. Comparing what corporations do for profit and what unions do to help workers is comical. I don't like the corruption of our politics in either case, but the motivations for their actions are strikingly different. Corporate exploitation and greed, or workers uniting to collectively seek better wages and benefits -- these are not even close to being comparable.

Living wages are not some utopian fantasy. It was the norm in this country just a few decades ago -- you know, when America was "great" and before we as a country became more concerned with how high corporations could stack their money than we were with our citizen workforce.

 

[drayer54]

I'm generally a pretty right leaning individual, but I think the two biggest issues in our country are the determination of the left to crap on freedom and the negligence of both sides (primarily the right) that has led to a decrease in the standard of living for working people.

Unions are far from perfect, but they are responsible for the tremendous increase in quality of life for the american worker that was experienced in the twentieth century. Some flawed union workers, bad stereotypes and infrequent anecdotes have done serious damage to wages in this country as union membership declined. The globalization and shipping of jobs out was a fair result from the business end, but we have really put the burden of our growth on middle class wages and neither side is giving this the time it deserves.

Two exceptions... Trump and Sanders. I think these two have earned their votes by beating the drum on this one, despite the fact that their solutions suck.

A candidate who talks about moving jobs back as an outsider, not an experienced politician could do well in an election and is why I think people underestimate the buffoon Trump.

 

[kmoose]

When I was a young man, manufacturing jobs that paid fair wages were abundant. That cashier at a movie theater today would easily have had a job gluing the rear view mirror onto the interior windshield of Buicks for 40 hours a week (highly technical skill, I know) and make enough to raise a family. We live In a service based economy now because greedy bastards who run these companies shipped the decent paying manufacturing jobs overseas so they could pay people $2 an hour to to glue those mirrors onto windshields. Their greed turned our middle class on its ear and now you defend them like none of that ever happened. Comparing what corporations do for profit and what unions do to help workers is comical. I do t like the corruption of our politics in either case, but the motivations for their actions are strikingly different. It's not some utopian fantasy. Decent wages were the norm in this country just a few decades ago -- you know, when America was "great."

I'm not defending corporate America. I'm debunking the idea that every job in America has to pay enough to support a family. If we could afford that, that would be great. But we all know that a gas station owner(the owner of the station, not the oil company that it may be associated with) cannot afford to pay their cashier in the convenience store $20 an hour. My dad worked one of those "decent wage" jobs, making vacuum cleaners, for 30 years. And my mom worked to help put food on the table for the family. We didn't spend frivolously....... but feeding 6 kids was expensive. So let's quit acting like households with two people working is some kind of new phenomenon. As to the "greedy bastards who run corporations" shipping jobs overseas to save a buck? It's ironic that I have CNN's "Fareed Zakaria: GPS" on in the background, and he just showed a stat that 67% of Americans responded that they would buy a $50 pair of jeans made overseas, instead of an $85 pair of jeans made in the USA. So, yeah............. "the people".

 

[drayer54]

I'm not defending corporate America. I'm debunking the idea that every job in America has to pay enough to support a family. If we could afford that, that would be great. But we all know that a gas station owner(the owner of the station, not the oil company that it may be associated with) cannot afford to pay their cashier in the convenience store $20 an hour. My dad worked one of those "decent wage" jobs, making vacuum cleaners, for 30 years. And my mom worked to help put food on the table for the family. We didn't spend frivolously....... but feeding 6 kids was expensive. So let's quit acting like households with two people working is some kind of new phenomenon. As to the "greedy bastards who run corporations" shipping jobs overseas to save a buck? It's ironic that I have CNN's "Fareed Zakaria: GPS" on in the background, and he just showed a stat that 67% of Americans responded that they would buy a $50 pair of jeans made overseas, instead of an $85 pair of jeans made in the USA. So, yeah............. "the people".

Perhaps that is because their wages suck and they can't afford the expensive jeans. Plus $85 is a lot to spend on jeans.

Anyways... Yes! MOST jobs should feed and house a family. I understand the need for cheap labor in certain positions and tax breaks for those families are fair. How do we justify leaving chunks of people in the dirt? This isn't China.

 

[GoIrish41]

I'm not defending corporate America. I'm debunking the idea that every job in America has to pay enough to support a family. If we could afford that, that would be great. But we all know that a gas station owner(the owner of the station, not the oil company that it may be associated with) cannot afford to pay their cashier in the convenience store $20 an hour. My dad worked one of those "decent wage" jobs, making vacuum cleaners, for 30 years. And my mom worked to help put food on the table for the family. We didn't spend frivolously....... but feeding 6 kids was expensive. So let's quit acting like households with two people working is some kind of new phenomenon. As to the "greedy bastards who run corporations" shipping jobs overseas to save a buck? It's ironic that I have CNN's "Fareed Zakaria: GPS" on in the background, and he just showed a stat that 67% of Americans responded that they would buy a $50 pair of jeans made overseas, instead of an $85 pair of jeans made in the USA. So, yeah............. "the people".

We can't afford not to do that. We are in a state of decline that began with Reaganomics, which shifted economic and political power from the people to corporations. He too had contempt for the average worker in favor of the wealthy, who would get all the breaks and they would trickle down to the average Joe. The prosperity never trickled down like he promised, and every Reagan robot since him has suggested would bring shared prosperity. It didn't work and that is why the GOP is a shit show today. Time to try something else. Give the people the upper hand and let prosperity bubble up to the corporations.

 

[Black Irish]

When I was a young man, manufacturing jobs that paid fair wages were abundant. That cashier at a movie theater today would easily have had a job gluing the rear view mirror onto the interior windshield of Buicks for 40 hours a week (highly technical skill, I know) and make enough to raise a family. We live In a service based economy now because greedy bastards who run these companies shipped the decent paying manufacturing jobs overseas so they could pay people $2 an hour to to glue those mirrors onto windshields. Their greed turned our middle class on its ear and now you defend them like none of that ever happened. Comparing what corporations do for profit and what unions do to help workers is comical. I don't like the corruption of our politics in either case, but the motivations for their actions are strikingly different. (Corporate exploitation and greed, or workers uniting to collectively seek better wages and benefits -- these are not even close to being comparable. Living wages are not some utopian fantasy. It wasthe norm in this country just a few decades ago -- you know, when America was "great" and we as a country became more concerned with how high corporations could stack their money than we are with the citizens of this country.

This line of logic begs the question(s) "What do American businesses owe the American people?" and "What do the American people owe the businesses?" If we view these corporate entities as nothing more than businesses: non-human, non-moral, existing only to transact business, then can we really justify ginning up anger when they do something we don't like? And BTW, these corporations shipping jobs overseas or using tax loopholes to significantly lower their tax burden is perfectly legal. It may not sit well with a particular person's ethical worldview, but they're not engaging in criminal activity. The corporations are making business decisions, which makes sense because they are business entities. And as consumers, we really owe them nothing. We purchase their goods if we find them useful, and we are free to withhold our buying dollars if we do not like what they are doing. And if we don't like the laws that the corporations operate under, whose fault is that? I'd say it's the fault of those who make the laws.

Once we get into the arena of demanding that corporations "do the right thing" even though they are not doing anything wrong by any legal measure, we get into two-way street territory. The more we demand of corporations, the more privilege they should enjoy. It's a trade-off. So it's a bit rich when people demand that corporations act more human and "do the right thing" by not shipping jobs and profits overseas on the one hand, but also decry laws like Citizens United, which gives corporate entities broader free speech powers in the form of political donations. People want corporations to act like our lovable next door neighbor when it comes to taxation and off-shoring, but then we want them to go back to being soulless entities when it comes to what rights they have as far as speech, spending, and political participation.

 

[kmoose]

Perhaps that is because their wages suck and they can't afford the expensive jeans. Plus $85 is a lot to spend on jeans.

Anyways... Yes! MOST jobs should feed and house a family. I understand the need for cheap labor in certain positions and tax breaks for those families are fair. How do we justify leaving chunks of people in the dirt? This isn't China.

You don't leave chunks of people in the dirt. For fuck's sake......... who said that? People can work their way up to better jobs. My dad got tired of working on an assembly line and took a 6 week course at the local community college to get a stationary boiler engineer's license. He was then qualified to apply for (and he got) a job in the powerhouse, which also increased his wages because of the professional certification required. I work for a company that is desperately trying to find a management position for me, because they don't want to (possibly) lose me to another company. But I work for a VERY small (<20 employees) company, and they can't just make something up for me. I haven't had a raise in 2 years, and it's not because the owners are greedy dicks who are exploiting the proletariat. It's because our contracts have not allowed for an increase in wages. But I stay with the company because I know the owners, and I know that they will make it up to us, once it is economically feasible.

 

[GoIrish41]

This line of logic begs the question(s) "What do American businesses owe the American people?" and "What do the American people owe the businesses?" If we view these corporate entities as nothing more than businesses: non-human, non-moral, existing only to transact business, then can we really justify ginning up anger when they do something we don't like? And BTW, these corporations shipping jobs overseas or using tax loopholes to significantly lower their tax burden is perfectly legal. It may not sit well with a particular person's ethical worldview, but they're not engaging in criminal activity. The corporations are making business decisions, which makes sense because they are business entities. And as consumers, we really owe them nothing. We purchase their goods if we find them useful, and we are free to withhold our buying dollars if we do not like what they are doing. And if we don't like the laws that the corporations operate under, whose fault is that? I'd say it's the fault of those who make the laws.

Once we get into the arena of demanding that corporations "do the right thing" even though they are not doing anything wrong by any legal measure, we get into two-way street territory. The more we demand of corporations, the more privilege they should enjoy. It's a trade-off. So it's a bit rich when people demand that corporations act more human and "do the right thing" by not shipping jobs and profits overseas on the one hand, but also decry laws like Citizens United, which gives corporate entities broader free speech powers in the form of political donations. People want corporations to act like our lovable next door neighbor when it comes to taxation and off-shoring, but then we want them to go back to being soulless entities when it comes to what rights they have as far as speech, spending, and political participation.

Sure they aren't breaking any laws. They wrote the laws to serve their purposes and got them through Congress by bribing politicians. Are you willing to concede that the deck is stacked in their favor? I mean, how much more privilege can we give them? They are free to not "do the right thing" and to bribe politicians to keep it that way. Does that sound like an arrangement that a well meaning legislator dreamed up? They have all the privilege they need to ensure the middle class keeps shrinking and their off shore accounts continue to swell. Businesses owe their employees loyalty and fair treatment. Employees have made American businesses incredibly efficient and productive, which has resulted in them becoming wealthy. Their loyalty was repaid with practices that leave them behind.

 

[Irish YJ]

Sure they aren't breaking any laws. They wrote the laws to serve their purposes and got them through Congress by bribing politicians. Are you willing to concede that the deck is stacked in their favor? I mean, how much more privilege can we give them? They are free to not "do the right thing" and to bribe politicians to keep it that way. Does that sound like an arrangement that a well meaning legislator dreamed up? They have all the privilege they need to ensure the middle class keeps shrinking and their off shore accounts continue to swell. Businesses owe their employees loyalty and fair treatment. Employees have made American businesses incredibly efficient and productive, which has resulted in them becoming wealthy. Their loyalty was repaid with practices that leave them behind.

Ever heard of the phrase "it's just business".
Business don't owe anyone anything except a paycheck proportionate to what skill they are providing, and what the market drives.
If your beef is with corrupt politicians, root them out. I'm all for getting big business money out of government, but I'm not going to blame the businesses for doing what is currently legal. This starts and ends with corruption in politics. Wage war on politicians, not business.

 

[GoIrish41]

Ever heard of the phrase "it's just business".
Business don't owe anyone anything except a paycheck proportionate to what skill they are providing, and what the market drives.
If your beef is with corrupt politicians, root them out. I'm all for getting big business money out of government, but I'm not going to blame the businesses for doing what is currently legal. This starts and ends with corruption in politics. Wage war on politicians, not business.

Yeah, I heard that term on The Godfather right before someone whacked people or betrayed the family for their own selfish benefit. Have you ever heard of the phrase "follow the money?" In my mind, that is a more appropriate phrase for this discussion. Politicians cannot be corrupt on their own. You can't separate out the corporate money that makes political corruption possible. And you cannot ignore who said corruption benefits. Corporations are the engine that makes the corruption go. I'm astonished at the degree to which people are willing to turn a blind eye to the entities that are screwing the citizens of this country -- follow the money!

 

[GATTACA!]

When I was a kid, manufacturing jobs that paid fair wages were abundant. That cashier at a movie theater today would easily have had a job gluing the rear view mirror onto the interior windshield of Buicks for 40 hours a week (highly technical skill, I know, so they obviously developed themselves to handle the rigors of this complex profession, just as their compatriots on the assembly line who installed tires and floor mats did). These folks make enough to raise a family and kept the economy humming for the good of the whole country. We live in a service based economy now because greedy bastards who run these companies shipped the decent paying manufacturing jobs overseas so they could pay people $2 an hour to to glue those mirrors onto windshields. Their greed turned our middle class on its ear and now you defend them like none of that ever happened.

Corporations, with the help of politicians made the decision that their wealth was more important than shared prosperity of the country. Comparing what corporations do for profit and what unions do to help workers is comical. I don't like the corruption of our politics in either case, but the motivations for their actions are strikingly different. Corporate exploitation and greed, or workers uniting to collectively seek better wages and benefits -- these are not even close to being comparable.

Living wages are not some utopian fantasy. It was the norm in this country just a few decades ago -- you know, when America was "great" and before we as a country became more concerned with how high corporations could stack their money than we were with our citizen workforce.

This is the crux of the issue. No one is arguing that there shouldn't be jobs that pay living wages. We as a country need to figure out how to bring back the jobs that are actually worth that type of salary. The issue can't be resolved by trying to force other corporations to "foot the bill" and start paying workers that do jobs that have never been worth a salary that can support a family, nor were they ever intended to.

I'm no expert but a smart plan to do this seems to be something Trump has been beating the drum about. Force China to pay extra taxes on the goods they export to the united states to make up for the gap they create by using slave labor. As kmoose has said the blame falls on the people for supporting these corporations that sell things as cheaply as possible. It's understandable, i'm guilty of it too, but that is what's at the heart of the problem. So since it's clear that people aren't going to pay 20-30% more for comparable items, the government needs to step in and level the playing field. The consumers will end up footing the bill, but if paying $100 instead of $85 for jeans means we can bring back our manufacturing jobs and start paying people a living wage I think it's worth it. That's just a decision consumers would never make on their own.

The solution isn't to force other employers to try and make up the difference. Do you know what will happen if McDonalds is forced to raise their minimum wage to something you can raise a family on? Heck it will happen if we force them to even go to $15 nation wide. They will simply eliminate a huge chunk of their workforce. Say goodbye to the cashiers. Automated ordering stations are already being implemented in many locations. You will have a touch screen when you pull through the drive thru. So yeah you might be able to pay a few more people a living wage, but you are also going to put millions out of a job that was paying them what their service was worth. If the market dictated paying mcdonald's cashiers $15 an hour they would have been making that years ago, it simply doesn't.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

We can't afford not to do that. We are in a state of decline that began with Reaganomics, which shifted economic and political power from the people to corporations. He too had contempt for the average worker in favor of the wealthy, who would get all the breaks and they would trickle down to the average Joe. The prosperity never trickled down like he promised, and like every Reagan robot since him has suggested would bring shared prosperity. It didn't work and that is why the GOP is a shit show today. Time to try something else. Give the people the upper hand and let prosperity bubble up to the corporations.

This is nuts. If you can't look at the numbers and acknowledge the growth of our economy during the Reagan years AND how the average American's life improved, you're beyond help.

 

[Buster Bluth]

This is the crux of the issue. No one is arguing that there shouldn't be jobs that pay living wages. We as a country need to figure out how to bring back the jobs that are actually worth that type of salary. The issue can't be resolved by trying to force other corporations to "foot the bill" and start paying workers that do jobs that have never been worth a salary that can support a family, nor were they ever intended to.

I'm no expert but a smart plan to do this seems to be something Trump has been beating the drum about. Force China to pay extra taxes on the goods they export to the united states to make up for the gap they create by using slave labor. As kmoose has said the blame falls on the people for supporting these corporations that sell things as cheaply as possible. It's understandable, i'm guilty of it too, but that is what's at the heart of the problem. So since it's clear that people aren't going to pay 20-30% more for comparable items, the government needs to step in and level the playing field. The consumers will end up footing the bill, but if paying $100 instead of $85 for jeans means we can bring back our manufacturing jobs and start paying people a living wage I think it's worth it. That's just a decision consumers would never make on their own.

The solution isn't to force other employers to try and make up the difference. Do you know what will happen if McDonalds is forced to raise their minimum wage to something you can raise a family on? Heck it will happen if we force them to even go to $15 nation wide. They will simply eliminate a huge chunk of their workforce. Say goodbye to the cashiers. Automated ordering stations are already being implemented in many locations. You will have a touch screen when you pull through the drive thru. So yeah you might be able to pay a few more people a living wage, but you are also going to put millions out of a job that was paying them what their service was worth. If the market dictated paying mcdonald's cashiers $15 an hour they would have been making that years ago, it simply doesn't.

Manufacturing jobs are not, and never will be, coming back. Trump is playing people for fools.

Technological advancement is doing to manufacturing what it did to agriculture:

.

If McDonalds would eliminate a cashier at $15/hr, then we must be mere months from them being eliminated even at $8/hr or so, as the price of technology plummets.

 

[GoIrish41]

This is the crux of the issue. No one is arguing that there shouldn't be jobs that pay living wages. We as a country need to figure out how to bring back the jobs that are actually worth that type of salary. The issue can't be resolved by trying to force other corporations to "foot the bill" and start paying workers that do jobs that have never been worth a salary that can support a family, nor were they ever intended to.

I'm no expert but a smart plan to do this seems to be something Trump has been beating the drum about. Force China to pay extra taxes on the goods they export to the united states to make up for the gap they create by using slave labor. As kmoose has said the blame falls on the people for supporting these corporations that sell things as cheaply as possible. It's understandable, i'm guilty of it too, but that is what's at the heart of the problem. So since it's clear that people aren't going to pay 20-30% more for comparable items, the government needs to step in and level the playing field. The consumers will end up footing the bill, but if paying $100 instead of $85 for jeans means we can bring back our manufacturing jobs and start paying people a living wage I think it's worth it. That's just a decision consumers would never make on their own.

The solution isn't to force other employers to try and make up the difference. Do you know what will happen if McDonalds is forced to raise their minimum wage to something you can raise a family on? Heck it will happen if we force them to even go to $15 nation wide. They will simply eliminate a huge chunk of their workforce. Say goodbye to the cashiers. Automated ordering stations are already being implemented in many locations. You will have a touch screen when you pull through the drive thru. So yeah you might be able to pay a few more people a living wage, but you are also going to put millions out of a job that was paying them what their service was worth. If the market dictated paying mcdonald's cashiers $15 an hour they would have been making that years ago, it simply doesn't.

Good post, but, man, those jobs are never coming back. They are gone forever. We need to figure out what's next. Clean energy technology instead of environment destroying carbon. That would create a new 21st century manufacturing base. It will take decades to repair our antique and/or crumbling infrastructure. Why not create jobs to start down that path? I think it has a lot to do with the same folks who want to block the minimum wage reform that would spark economic growth. They are also against making the minimum wage keep pace with inflation to ensure folks aren't making less money tomorrow than they are today. They are against the shift to sustainable energy. They are against removing loopholes in the laws that allow the wealthy to become more wealthy at the expense of the workforce. Who benefits?

Corporations created the economy we are experiencing today. There aren't different companies that ship jobs overseas -- they are the same companies who remain here with access to the massive American marketplace. They are slowly inching toward reducing the cost of the American workforce so they get the same bang for their buck as they do paying Korean children to see swooshes on Air Jordans. We keep thinking the same way and applying the same policies, they will get there.

 

[GoIrish41]

This is nuts. If you can't look at the numbers and acknowledge the growth of our economy during the Reagan years AND how the average American's life improved, you're beyond help.

Reagan inserted what amounts to a stimulus package -- huge tax cuts and massive boost to the military industrial complex. He expanded the size of government. He gave amnesty to illegal immigrants. All of these had a positive impact. The economy improved (following the recession that proceeded him) and thrived for a time. But a stimulus package is not sustainable in the long term. And now that the results of these long term policies has shown their serious flaws, it's time to change. There are still 29 million Americans without healthcare working poverty level jobs to try to survive. Huge segments of the population are poor, and that percentage keeps growing. The theme of this election has been "pissed off voters!" They didn't get pissed overnight. Decades of neglect led to Trump and Hillary.

 

[woolybug25]

This is nuts. If you can't look at the numbers and acknowledge the growth of our economy during the Reagan years AND how the average American's life improved, you're beyond help.

I find it funny that a kid that wasn't even born when Reagan was President is on here lecturing us on how much better of we were then.

 

[GATTACA!]

Good post, but, man, those jobs are never coming back. They are gone forever.

I just really don't think that we can just accept that as the norm. There is no reason why products should be able to be made halfway across the globe, packaged, shipped, and delivered for a fraction of what we can produce them for here on our soil. While I get the point of Busters response I think the big difference between this situation and the agricultural decline is the fact that there is a hard cap on how much we can actually consume. We can only eat so many tomatoes. So with the technological improvements in harvesting and the hardiness of our crops there just literally isn't a need for farmers the way there used to be. On the other hand there is no limit to the amount of bullshit we will buy. No matter how efficiently we can produce nike's or ipad's there will always be a demand for more. There will never come a time when we have an overabundance of these luxury products, and when that time comes in specific cases the market just pivots to other goods. Next we will be wanting vr headsets and smart watches, in 5 years we will be wanting holographic displays and self tying shoelaces. There is no reason that these products can't be produced here. The consumers will have to pay more, but that's a reality we will have to live with if we want to save these jobs.

It will take decades to repair our antique and/or crumbling infrastructure. Why not create jobs to start down that path?

I agree with this part. Bernie should be arguing more for free trade school rather than the broad idea of free college. We are in desperate need of welders, not gender studies grads.

They are also against making the minimum wage keep pace with inflation to ensure folks aren't making less money tomorrow than they are today.

I agree on this one too. There needs to be a national minimum wage that keeps pace with inflation. That's the way Ohio does it and i think it's absurd to argue it should be done any other way.

They are against removing loopholes in the laws that allow the wealthy to become more wealthy at the expense of the workforce. Who benefits?

FWIW Trump just said today on meet the press that he thinks the rich need to pay more in taxes. I would be 100% behind closing every loophole we can find. Corporations should have to keep every dollar they earn on US soil in US banks.

The problem is that all of these garbage candidates are bought and sold by these corporations. I have zero faith that someone like Hillary would do ANYTHING to change any of this.

Corporations created the economy we are experiencing today. There aren't different companies that ship jobs overseas -- they are the same companies who remain here with access to the massive American marketplace. They are slowly inching toward reducing the cost of the American workforce so they get the same bang for their buck as they do paying Korean children to see swooshes on Air Jordans. We keep thinking the same way and applying the same policies, they will get there.

I think we basically agree on everything, we just have different idea on how to find the solution. I think there has to be some tax rate on imported good that will eventually force corporations to change the way they do business. There will reach a point where Walmart looks that the jeans they are importing and goes, "why are we paying $8 to produce these, $3 to ship and shelve them, pay $6 in taxes to import them, to turn around and only sell them for $25. We could just manufacture them here for $17 including the reasonable wages we would be paying to US workers."

I'm sure these numbers are way off but you get the idea.

 

[phgreek]

Manufacturing jobs are not, and never will be, coming back. Trump is playing people for fools.

Technological advancement is doing to manufacturing what it did to agriculture:

.

If McDonalds would eliminate a cashier at $15/hr, then we must be mere months from them being eliminated even at $8/hr or so, as the price of technology plummets.

I agree it is inevitable, but the timeline such things occur is accelerated when you give McDonalds reason to INVEST in embodiments of technology with urgency, and create a market with lots of other players...I assure you they do that in the face of sweeping determinations like Doubling their labor costs.

As well individual franchisees do/will slow roll the implementation of such technologies in favor of existing employees, implementing it paced with their naturally occurring turnover/promotion if wages are left alone or raised reasonably. And for franchisees, you also take the technological "early adopter" barrier away, because there is nothing to be afraid of or lose by immediately adopting the technology to replace 2x the labor cost.

So to me it is inevitable that I will die, but I don't sky dive or smoke either...no need to exacerbate the immediate issue.

 

[GATTACA!]

Trump releases seven-point health care reform plan… and it’s excellent!

1 Completely repeal Obamacare. Our elected representatives must eliminate the individual mandate. No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to.

2 Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines. As long as the plan purchased complies with state requirements, any vendor ought to be able to offer insurance in any state. By allowing full competition in this market, insurance costs will go down and consumer satisfaction will go up.

3 Allow individuals to fully deduct health insurance premium payments from their tax returns under the current tax system. Businesses are allowed to take these deductions so why wouldn’t Congress allow individuals the same exemptions? As we allow the free market to provide insurance coverage opportunities to companies and individuals, we must also make sure that no one slips through the cracks simply because they cannot afford insurance. We must review basic options for Medicaid and work with states to ensure that those who want healthcare coverage can have it.

4 Allow individuals to use Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Contributions into HSAs should be tax-free and should be allowed to accumulate. These accounts would become part of the estate of the individual and could be passed on to heirs without fear of any death penalty. These plans should be particularly attractive to young people who are healthy and can afford high-deductible insurance plans. These funds can be used by any member of a family without penalty. The flexibility and security provided by HSAs will be of great benefit to all who participate.

5 Require price transparency from all healthcare providers, especially doctors and healthcare organizations like clinics and hospitals. Individuals should be able to shop to find the best prices for procedures, exams or any other medical-related procedure.

6 Block-grant Medicaid to the states. Nearly every state already offers benefits beyond what is required in the current Medicaid structure. The state governments know their people best and can manage the administration of Medicaid far better without federal overhead. States will have the incentives to seek out and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse to preserve our precious resources.

7 Remove barriers to entry into free markets for drug providers that offer safe, reliable and cheaper products. Congress will need the courage to step away from the special interests and do what is right for America. Though the pharmaceutical industry is in the private sector, drug companies provide a public service. Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers.

 

[kmoose]

Clean energy technology instead of environment destroying carbon. That would create a new 21st century manufacturing base.

Manufacturing what, exactly?

 

[Irish YJ]

I like.
Drug and insurance companies won't.

Trump releases seven-point health care reform plan… and it’s excellent!

 

[kmoose]

I'm astonished at the degree to which people are willing to turn a blind eye to the entities that are screwing the citizens of this country -- follow the money!

Look in the mirror. I pointed out that HALF of the entities that contributed $10M+ in the 2012 election cycle were unions, NOT corporations, and you almost completely blew it off. "The People", in the form of their unions, are corrupting the system every bit as much as corporations are. But your anger is solely focused on corporate influenced corruption.

If corporations are so in control of politicians, how is that the Keystone XL pipeline is mired in politics, overtime rules are changing(to the benefit of the worker, not industry), Obamacare passed, and federal contract minimum wage (along with many states') is either at, or on its way to, $15/hour?