2016 Presidential Horse Race

[pkt77242]

He strikes me as creepy but I'll be the first to admit he can "debate" his ass off. He's a master debater.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Huh? I will give you a chance to explain that before passing judgement but as it is written that is mind boggling.

A moderator asked Carly last night what she would do to replace Obamacare. I can't quote Carly word for word off the top of my head (check this if you really want to), but I can paraphrase her response like this:

"As a cancer survivor, I think it's time we go to something we've never tried before in health care: the free market."

 

[Buster Bluth]

A moderator asked Carly last night what she would do to replace Obamacare. I can't quote Carly word for word off the top of my head (check this if you really want to), but I can paraphrase her response like this:

"As a cancer survivor, I think it's time we go to something we've never tried before in health care: the free market."

If "let the corporations handle it blah blah free market" were such a great option, why have exactly zero other developed countries on the planet gone that route?

 

[GoIrish41]

A moderator asked Carly last night what she would do to replace Obamacare. I can't quote Carly word for word off the top of my head (check this if you really want to), but I can paraphrase her response like this:

"As a cancer survivor, I think it's time we go to something we've never tried before in health care: the free market."

So her surviving cancer gives he some special insight into how healthcare should be financed for everyone else? She might as well have said, as a failed CEO I think we should have provocative military exercises in the Balkans to draw Russia into a costly war. .

 

[pkt77242]

A moderator asked Carly last night what she would do to replace Obamacare. I can't quote Carly word for word off the top of my head (check this if you really want to), but I can paraphrase her response like this:

"As a cancer survivor, I think it's time we go to something we've never tried before in health care: the free market."

Why does her being a cancer survivor matter? It makes for a great personal story but it doesn't give her any credibility on fixing healthcare.

Also what does a free market solution look like? I have a funny feeling that a free market solution would generally screw the customer. How would it handle people who get cancer, or other expensive medical conditions? Do the insurers drop them to be more profitable? Do they decline expensive medical treatments and drugs to drive down expenses and increase profit?

*I assume by free market, it is meant little to no regulation of the insurance industry, (not that it only means that but that free market to many Conservatives starts with little or no regulation) if not, then please articulate what exactly is meant by free market. Thanks.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

If "let the corporations handle it blah blah free market" were such a great option, why have exactly zero other developed countries on the planet gone that route?

Because coverage doesn't equal quality of care, they don't have the population we do, and they don't have the same health care problems (many self induced) that we do. How many times should you and I have this conversation? I think this is 3 or 4.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

So her surviving cancer gives he some special insight into how healthcare should be financed for everyone else? She might as well have said, as a failed CEO I think we should have provocative military exercises in the Balkans to draw Russia into a costly war. .

Did you forget about her wildly successful career with AT&T and Lucent before HP? Or are we just going to pretend that didn't happen and only talk about HP?

You have to get hired before you get fired. Any Board of Trustees in the country would hire Carly before the Bern.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Why does her being a cancer survivor matter? It makes for a great personal story but it doesn't give her any credibility on fixing healthcare.

Also what does a free market solution look like? I have a funny feeling that a free market solution would generally screw the customer. How would it handle people who get cancer, or other expensive medical conditions? Do the insurers drop them to be more profitable? Do they decline expensive medical treatments and drugs to drive down expenses and increase profit?

*I assume by free market, it is meant little to no regulation of the insurance industry, (not that it only means that but that free market to many Conservatives starts with little or no regulation) if not, then please articulate what exactly is meant by free market. Thanks.

No one is screwing the customer more than the feds and Obamacare as we have it today. Obamacare is crushing the very same people it was claimed to save from the "corporations." I'm not Carly and I don't work on her campaign. All I noted is that as a cancer survivor she didn't expect anything for "free" and wants markets to work for customers, not government.

Perhaps you should take a glance at her plan on her website and judge for yourself. Thanks.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Who in their right mind wouldn't look at the results (not the intention) of Obamacare and call it absolute horse shit? Who wouldn't want to repeal and replace it to improve quality and cost for the poor and middle class?

EDITORIAL: The sickening toll of Obamacare - Washington Times

The Affordable Care Act open enrollment period started Nov. 1, and many Americans have come down with a bad case of sticker shock. Premiums for the middle-tier “silver” plans will rise by an average of 7.5 percent, according to calculations by The Wall Street Journal. A survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation finds that premiums in Alaska, Minnesota and Tennessee, for example, will jump by a third. Rates in Arizona, Nebraska and North Carolina, for other examples, will climb at least 20 percent, and by 10 percent in Iowa, Louisiana and South Carolina. In selling his health-care con, President Obama promised that the average family would save $2,500 a year on their premiums. So much for “affordable.”

 

[pkt77242]

Who in their right mind wouldn't look at the results (not the intention) of Obamacare and call it absolute horse shit? Who wouldn't want to repeal and replace it to improve quality and cost for the poor and middle class?

EDITORIAL: The sickening toll of Obamacare - Washington Times

The Affordable Care Act open enrollment period started Nov. 1, and many Americans have come down with a bad case of sticker shock. Premiums for the middle-tier “silver” plans will rise by an average of 7.5 percent, according to calculations by The Wall Street Journal. A survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation finds that premiums in Alaska, Minnesota and Tennessee, for example, will jump by a third. Rates in Arizona, Nebraska and North Carolina, for other examples, will climb at least 20 percent, and by 10 percent in Iowa, Louisiana and South Carolina. In selling his health-care con, President Obama promised that the average family would save $2,500 a year on their premiums. So much for “affordable.”

I haven't done all the research on it but I would say part of the problem is that you (and the article) seem to focus on part of it. What about the states that saw premiums drop? What happened to premiums in these states the previous year?


Analysis of 2015 Premium Changes in the Affordable Care Act’s Health Insurance Marketplaces | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

Analysis of 2016 Premium Changes in the Affordable Care Act’s Health Insurance Marketplaces | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

Some of the states that are seeing massive increases this year saw decreases the year before (Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Arizona, Louisiana, Nebraska, South Dakota, etc.). Some saw almost no gain the year before. Some have seen decreases both year. What that article is doing is the equivalent of watching a football game where a QB throws three picks and then stating that they are horrible. The whole body of work must be taken into account, not just one slice.

I am not arguing that the ACA is great and it definitely has some issues but the analysis is weak at best.

 

[Buster Bluth]

No one is screwing the customer more than the feds and Obamacare as we have it today. Obamacare is crushing the very same people it was claimed to save from the "corporations." I'm not Carly and I don't work on her campaign. All I noted is that as a cancer survivor she didn't expect anything for "free" and wants markets to work for customers, not government.

Perhaps you should take a glance at her plan on her website and judge for yourself. Thanks.

"Her plan" has to get through Congress. A Congress that is entirely owned by special interests. Restacking the health care system in a way that lowers costs isn't going to happen until you take the money out of politics. Until then, corporations will continue to write bills for themselves, see: Obamacare.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Because coverage doesn't equal quality of care, they don't have the population we do, and they don't have the same health care problems (many self induced) that we do. How many times should you and I have this conversation? I think this is 3 or 4.

We have the same conversation and then you dodge the follow up to that.

Why does population matter? Greater population = more taxpayers.

Not having the same health problems is a weird one. We're all human, we're all facing the same diseases. The ability of singl-payer or highly regulated drug markets doesn't change.

I mean how can you honestly say places like Canada or Australia are too different?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I haven't done all the research on it but I would say part of the problem is that you (and the article) seem to focus on part of it. What about the states that saw premiums drop? What happened to premiums in these states the previous year?


Analysis of 2015 Premium Changes in the Affordable Care Act’s Health Insurance Marketplaces | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

Analysis of 2016 Premium Changes in the Affordable Care Act’s Health Insurance Marketplaces | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

Some of the states that are seeing massive increases this year saw decreases the year before (Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Arizona, Louisiana, Nebraska, South Dakota, etc.). Some saw almost no gain the year before. Some have seen decreases both year. What that article is doing is the equivalent of watching a football game where a QB throws three picks and then stating that they are horrible. The whole body of work must be taken into account, not just one slice.

I am not arguing that the ACA is great and it definitely has some issues but the analysis is weak at best.

Analysis isn't weak at all. Rates are doubling and tripling. Obama told us the average family would save $2500 annually. Crock. Of. Shit.

Saying ACA isn't perfect is just being willfully ignorant. Obama and all the Dems lied to give the feds more control over another sector of the economy.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

"Her plan" has to get through Congress. A Congress that is entirely owned by special interests. Restacking the health care system in a way that lowers costs isn't going to happen until you take the money out of politics. Until then, corporations will continue to write bills for themselves, see: Obamacare.

Last time I checked Obamacare was passed 100% by Democrats, not "corporations."

 

[GoIrish41]

Did you forget about her wildly successful career with AT&T and Lucent before HP? Or are we just going to pretend that didn't happen and only talk about HP?

You have to get hired before you get fired. Any Board of Trustees in the country would hire Carly before the Bern.

So, are you finally acknowledging that she was a failure as CEO of HP? Because she is painting that failure as a success. And that is problematic because she is running for president. What else is she embellishing?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

We have the same conversation and then you dodge the follow up to that.

Why does population matter? Greater population = more taxpayers.

Not having the same health problems is a weird one. We're all human, we're all facing the same diseases. The ability of singl-payer or highly regulated drug markets doesn't change.

I mean how can you honestly say places like Canada or Australia are too different?

I dodge no one and nothing on here.

Why does population matter? We have 109 million people and at least 11 million people who are getting health care and aren't on the books. That's why.

Health problems: We lead the world in heart disease. Biggest killer in the US by far. Sweden and Denmark don't have the numbers or numbers of problems we do. Coverage does NOT equal quality of care.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Analysis isn't weak at all. Rates are doubling and tripling. Obama told us the average family would save $2500 annually. Crock. Of. Shit.

Saying ACA isn't perfect is just being willfully ignorant. Obama and all the Dems lied to give the feds more control over another sector of the economy.

This is just like how you argue with the stimulus "failing."

There isn't great evideince that Obamacare is responsible for insurance rates increasing. In fact the rate of increase has fallen, but there is not much crediting Obamacare there either.

You just kinda reveal your bias when you blame Obamacare without mentioning that the situation beforehand was awful and getting out of hand quickly.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Last time I checked Obamacare was passed 100% by Democrats, not "corporations."

Passed by Democrats who are owned by corporations. What is so hard to understand here? Corporations literally wrote Obamacare, based on a version passed by the guy the Republicans nominated. Once you factor in the GOP's policy of "fuck Obama and any political ideas he has" and their passage of Bush's expanded federal control of health care, you might start to get the picture.

If it was such a bad plan they'd have put forth a better one for clear and specific improvements. And yet, outside of quacks campaigning, we see nothing. Nothing out of the Republicans in Congress. Zero. It's almost like they don't want to fix it because it's a base-rallying tool that is paying dividends from the "fuck Obama" stance.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

So, are you finally acknowledging that she was a failure as CEO of HP? Because she is painting that failure as a success. And that is problematic because she is running for president. What else is she embellishing?

Call it whatever you want, pal. The guy who fired her has called it a mistake, and she was very successful for years prior to HP.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

This is just like how you argue with the stimulus "failing."

There isn't great evideince that Obamacare is responsible for insurance rates increasing. In fact the rate of increase has fallen, but there is not much crediting Obamacare there either.

You just kinda reveal your bias when you blame Obamacare without mentioning that the situation beforehand was awful and getting out of hand quickly.

So you'd like to have a debate with me about Obamacare even though you're not sure if it is or is not causing rates to go up? Cool.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Passed by Democrats who are owned by corporations. What is so hard to understand here? Corporations literally wrote Obamacare, based on a version passed by the guy the Republicans nominated. Once you factor in the GOP's policy of "fuck Obama and any political ideas he has" and their passage of Bush's expanded federal control of health care, you might start to get the picture.

If it was such a bad plan they'd have put forth a better one for clear and specific improvements. And yet, outside of quacks campaigning, we see nothing. Nothing out of the Republicans in Congress. Zero. It's almost like they don't want to fix it because it's a base-rallying tool that is paying dividends from the "fuck Obama" stance.

Corporations are behind the politicians, but the electorate put the politicians there, they signed the bill, they shoved it down our throats, they are 100% unaffected by it, and here we are.

I'm not evaluating the cost and benefit of Obamacare and blaming nameless "corporations." I'm telling all the scumbags in DC who shoved it down our throats to own it and fix it.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I dodge no one and nothing on here.

You still haven't addressed what you think is offensive about what Jeremiah Wright said. Buster posted actual quotes and his own take on them in 2008 compared to now.

He said:

Is anything quoted there really that extreme? If we collectively unbunch the panties over the god damn America part and it's a solid anti-government rant plenty of conservatives could have written themselves if they were being honest about many of the dark parts of US history.

You replied:

You wanna defend Wright, go ahead. Be my guest. You think he has merit, I think he's a sick, hateful man who got his "reverand" card out of a cereal box.

That is a straight up dodge.

 

[Buster Bluth]

So you'd like to have a debate with me about Obamacare even though you're not sure if it is or is not causing rates to go up? Cool.

No I just think your points are dumb because the professionals can't indict Obamacare for screwing up something that was already screwed up. They can't say it made it better in terms of cost (which is different than coverage), but they can't say it made it worse. We do know the rate of increase is down. That's it.

Sometimes complicated stuff like the health care of the US isn't so black and white.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Corporations are behind the politicians, but the electorate put the politicians there, they signed the bill, they shoved it down our throats, they are 100% unaffected by it, and here we are.

I'm not evaluating the cost and benefit of Obamacare and blaming nameless "corporations." I'm telling all the scumbags in DC who shoved it down our throats to own it and fix it.

Lololol what a cop out.

There are plenty of studies out there showing how the electorate is basically meaningless. The favorability of a bill has no bearing on its passage. Seriously, look it up.

It's all wedge issues to divide people while government waste (read: corporate profit built into bills...you didn't think they were just lighting the money on fire did you?) continues.

Own it and fix it? Dream on chief.

You even refuse to listen to the only candidate who is promising left and right to go after the corporate control of Congress. It's comical.

There is only one issue in this country, that Congress has tremendous difficulty passing a bill without the approval of their donor daddies. Up your cynicism a bit because it's as simple as that.

I mean why do you think Trump wants to wall of Mexico? Some corporate buddies would get paid tens of billions. It has nothing to do with Mexicans.

 

[pkt77242]

Analysis isn't weak at all. Rates are doubling and tripling. Obama told us the average family would save $2500 annually. Crock. Of. Shit.

Saying ACA isn't perfect is just being willfully ignorant. Obama and all the Dems lied to give the feds more control over another sector of the economy.

Rates are doubling or tripling? Are you high, drunk, or do you not understand math? Please elaborate.

Also you are avoiding big time. You did not comment on my point at all. At all.

Lets look at AZ as an example.
2014 price: $197
2015 price: $177 -10%
2016 price: $207 +16.9%

The article is up in arms over the 16.9% increase but, if you look at it from 2014-2016 the price changed from $197 to $207 which is a 5.1% increase over 2 years. Yep, you read that right, over 2 years the price in AZ went up a total of 5.1%. So be up in arms over the 16.9% all you want, but the reality is that the price has been stable. Now there are some places that have seen huge increases both years (Alaska being one of them) but many states have seen a yo-yo effect, either decreases one year, then increase the next, or vice-versa.

Having said that 2 years isn't enough for a good comparison. We would need many years pre-ACA (which we have) and many years post ACA (which we do not have) and even saying that we should include things such as CPI, and other economic factors to truly determine if it is working or not.

So in short, what the Hell are you talking about.

Also please try to actually reply to my points instead of posting Fox News talking points. Thanks.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You still haven't addressed what you think is offensive about what Jeremiah Wright said. Buster posted actual quotes and his own take on them in 2008 compared to now.

He said:


You replied:


That is a straight up dodge.

He asked what I found "offensive." I find everything about Wright to be offensive, but I didn't wanna play that card. Wright is a sick, angry man and is as much a "preacher" as Ty Willingham is recruiter of the year.

 

[Goldedommer44]

Analysis isn't weak at all. Rates are doubling and tripling. Obama told us the average family would save $2500 annually. Crock. Of. Shit.

Saying ACA isn't perfect is just being willfully ignorant. Obama and all the Dems lied to give the feds more control over another sector of the economy.

Well actually the fed has no control over health care, all the ACA does is provide a single source for people to go to buy insurance from independent health care providers. As a person who runs a small business I can say that the ACA really hasn't had mush effect on me. I say that because we where already offering Health insurance to our full time employees.

It is not a perfect system in many ways but it was better then what we had before. I know people who couldn't get insurance unless they paid $10,000 per month because she had breast cancer twice. And other people who only went to the ER for a cold because they knew they would have to help them. This cost you and me a lot of money.

I believe the ACA could be helped greatly if it was opened up to the Free Market in that insurers could cross state lines.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

No I just think your points are dumb because the professionals can't indict Obamacare for screwing up something that was already screwed up. They can't say it made it better in terms of cost (which is different than coverage), but they can't say it made it worse. We do know the rate of increase is down. That's it.

Sometimes complicated stuff like the health care of the US isn't so black and white.

The President told the country that ACA would save the average family $2500. Absolute garbage. You'd rather try to make simple things like that complex just to disagree with me. That's both weird and sad.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Rates are doubling or tripling? Are you high, drunk, or do you not understand math? Please elaborate.

Also you are avoiding big time. You did not comment on my point at all. At all.

Lets look at AZ as an example.
2014 price: $197
2015 price: $177 -10%
2016 price: $207 +16.9%

The article is up in arms over the 16.9% increase but, if you look at it from 2014-2016 the price changed from $197 to $207 which is a 5.1% increase over 2 years. Yep, you read that right, over 2 years the price in AZ went up a total of 5.1%. So be up in arms over the 16.9% all you want, but the reality is that the price has been stable. Now there are some places that have seen huge increases both years (Alaska being one of them) but many states have seen a yo-yo effect, either decreases one year, then increase the next, or vice-versa.

Having said that 2 years isn't enough for a good comparison. We would need many years pre-ACA (which we have) and many years post ACA (which we do not have) and even saying that we should include things such as CPI, and other economic factors to truly determine if it is working or not.

So in short, what the Hell are you talking about.

Also please try to actually reply to my points instead of posting Fox News talking points. Thanks.

How do you defend 16.9% (and this is only ONE state) when we were promised ACA would save the average family $2500 per year? And please do so without the talking points from the Daily Kos, Moveon.org, or the Bernie Sanders facebook page. Thanks.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Obamacare doesn't work, because it's competing with private issuance companies.

That's why rates are volatile.

We need universal health care, corporations should not control our health care.

People should not be profiting off our health.