2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Buster Bluth]

I care more that he thinks Obamacare is even comparable to slavery or Nazi Germany. It shows me he's not a serious candidate.

 

[kmoose]

I care more that he thinks Obamacare is even comparable to slavery or Nazi Germany. It shows me he's not a serious candidate.

I think he's a very intelligent guy. I don't know much about his views, but he comes across as very smart, thoughtful, and humble. I think those are three qualities that we could certainly use in American Government. I do worry about his inexperience, though.

Hilary Clinton was dead wrong on Iraq and Saddam Hussein.........

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

Saddam Hussein has ties to Al-Qaeda... should we also discount her as a serious candidate? Candidates are often wrong on issues, during the election cycle. Often, I think, it is simply because they are unaware of all of the facts surrounding a topic. I think Obama had every intention of closing Gitmo. He said as much. He even said that he could, and would, do it via Executive Order. It was his #1 priority! How'd that work out? I think, when he finally got access to all of the intel/info on who the detainees are, that he realized that letting them go was a really bad idea.

 

[pkt77242]

Why do we care if a candidate believes in creation, or evolution? I mean, does his/her view on the origins of life have the sqaure root of fvck-all to do with negotiating international trade agreements, or brokering nuclear deals? Or his ability to recognize and address domestic social and economic injustices? I'm not saying that it's not a valid debate, but is it really a deal breaker for anyone?

Yes.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Hillary Clinton is awful too..

 

[EddytoNow]

Why do we care if a candidate believes in creation, or evolution? I mean, does his/her view on the origins of life have the sqaure root of fvck-all to do with negotiating international trade agreements, or brokering nuclear deals? Or his ability to recognize and address domestic social and economic injustices? I'm not saying that it's not a valid debate, but is it really a deal breaker for anyone?

The reason to care is the separation of church and state. The president's religious beliefs should not be a deciding factor in policy decisions involving citizens or countries who may have a different set of beliefs. Separation of church and state 101. The question is what religious beliefs may the president want to put into practice for the whole country? Will public school teachers have to teach creationism to non-Christians? Will Native American children be taught something that conflicts with their own religious view of the world? Will the LGBT community once again be under attack. By putting his religious beliefs out there to attract the Fundamentalist voters in the Republican party, Carson is suggesting a very Christian lean to his future policies if elected. John F. Kennedy faced similar questions regarding his Catholic faith. He had to publicly state that his policy decisions would not be based upon Catholic teachings, but upon what was best for the whole country. Carson is not running for the Presidency of the Christian United States. His religious beliefs should be respected and kept private, not be used in his campaign for the nomination. To make those beliefs a public part of his campaign is to publicly state his intention to push his Chistian beliefs upon others.

 

[Cackalacky]

Why do we care if a candidate believes in creation, or evolution? I mean, does his/her view on the origins of life have the sqaure root of fvck-all to do with negotiating international trade agreements, or brokering nuclear deals? Or his ability to recognize and address domestic social and economic injustices? I'm not saying that it's not a valid debate, but is it really a deal breaker for anyone?

Yes. Its a deal breaker for me. It matters to me because it is an very big indication that he is willing to forgo real data in the face of his personal beliefs, which you know, faced with pushing a button and such, that could be disastrous.

 

[kmoose]

The reason to care is the separation of church and state. The president's religious beliefs should not be a deciding factor in policy decisions involving citizens or countries who may have a different set of beliefs. Separation of church and state 101. The question is what religious beliefs may the president want to put into practice for the whole country? Will public school teachers have to teach creationism to non-Christians? Will Native American children be taught something that conflicts with their own religious view of the world? Will the LGBT community once again be under attack. By putting his religious beliefs out there to attract the Fundamentalist voters in the Republican party, Carson is suggesting a very Christian lean to his future policies if elected. John F. Kennedy faced similar questions regarding his Catholic faith. He had to publicly state that his policy decisions would not be based upon Catholic teachings, but upon what was best for the whole country. Carson is not running for the Presidency of the Christian United States. His religious beliefs should be respected and kept private, not be used in his campaign for the nomination. To make those beliefs a public part of his campaign is to publicly state his intention to push his Chistian beliefs upon others.

You do realize that "separation of Church and State" was formulated by a bunch of guys who believed in Creation, right? To wit:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

I agree with you that a man's religious beliefs should be secondary to what it is best for the Country. But I disagree with the inference that a man who believes in Creation is going to preside as some sort of theocrat.

 

[kmoose]

Yes. Its a deal breaker for me. It matters to me because it is an very big indication that he is willing to forgo real data in the face of his personal beliefs, which you know, faced with pushing a button and such, that could be disastrous.

What in his history has made you interpret his beliefs as "an very big indication...." ?

 

[Grahambo]

Yes. Its a deal breaker for me. It matters to me because it is an very big indication that he is willing to forgo real data in the face of his personal beliefs, which you know, faced with pushing a button and such, that could be disastrous.

For whatever this is worth, I am a born again Christian and I believe in both. I think both God and evolution can exist. I also look at data, science, etc.

I like to have my religious beliefs while also using common sense.

So, vote for me in 2020 when I go up against Kanye West.

 

[Wild Bill]

I care more that he thinks Obamacare is even comparable to slavery or Nazi Germany. It shows me he's not a serious candidate.

He didn't compare Nazi Germany to Obamacare. He compared it to IRS targeting conservatives or some other bullshit.

I think he's a very intelligent guy. I don't know much about his views, but he comes across as very smart, thoughtful, and humble. I think those are three qualities that we could certainly use in American Government. I do worry about his inexperience, though.

And that's all a candidate will need to beat Hilary (assuming she gets the nod for the Ds). I'm not sure he'll win the primary or the general but he is bright and came across as much more likeable than I anticipated during the debate. Obama is very similar in this regard and he exposed her in the 2008 primary. She had a tough time looking presidential next to him and I think the same will be true if she faced Carson.

Yes.

Yes. Its a deal breaker for me. It matters to me because it is an very big indication that he is willing to forgo real data in the face of his personal beliefs, which you know, faced with pushing a button and such, that could be disastrous.

To be fair, there is nothing he could do to get either of your votes. I doubt this single issue would swing a large number of moderates.

 

[pkt77242]

You do realize that "separation of Church and State" was formulated by a bunch of guys who believed in Creation, right? To wit:



I agree with you that a man's religious beliefs should be secondary to what it is best for the Country. But I disagree with the inference that a man who believes in Creation is going to preside as some sort of theocrat.

To be fair, Darwin wasn't even born yet when the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written. Heck Lamarck hadn't put out his Transmutation of Species yet (1809). What would you have had them believe in?

 

[ACamp1900]

The fact that he answered honestly and didn't pander actually impressed me... again, there are a number of issues about him that trouble me infinitely more that this... just me

To be fair, there is nothing he could do to get either of your votes. I doubt this single issue would swing a large number of moderates.

And this...

 

[kmoose]

To be fair, Darwin wasn't even born yet when the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written. Heck Lamarck hadn't put out his Transmutation of Species yet (1809). What would you have had them believe in?

The point was that these men were Christians, and yet they didn't automatically run the country as if it were a theocracy. They made decisions that were best for ALL "Americans", not just those who believed in the Christian bible. So why do we have to automatically assume that someone who is Christian is going to try to preside over the country based strictly on his religious beliefs?

 

[Cackalacky]

For whatever this is worth, I am a born again Christian and I believe in both. I think both God and evolution can exist. I also look at data, science, etc.

I like to have my religious beliefs while also using common sense.

So, vote for me in 2020 when I go up against Kanye West.

No doubt. That is a very reasonable position to have. Evolution does not disprove God.It can't. Its the opposite of Ben Carson's opinion though. He rejects evolution, the founding principle of his profession.

 

[Cackalacky]

What in his history has made you interpret his beliefs as "an very big indication...." ?

Its no secret what he believes. He has made numerous statements on his position and he is just propagating DI propaganda. The link pkt posted has several of the more stupid and egregiously erroneous claims. I am almost concerned he practiced medicine.

 

[pkt77242]

The point was that these men were Christians, and yet they didn't automatically run the country as if it were a theocracy. They made decisions that were best for ALL "Americans", not just those who believed in the Christian bible. So why do we have to automatically assume that someone who is Christian is going to try to preside over the country based strictly on his religious beliefs?

First, many were loosely Christian (many believed in God, some not so much Jesus, and some had a disdain for organized religion). I think that Deist is a good description of some of them as well. 2nd, they didn't push their religion when running and in fact many of them kept their religious beliefs as private as possible. When candidates want to push their religious beliefs and how they will enact those religious beliefs (see Huckabee, and others) if they become President can (and some would say should) be worrisome.

ETA: Here is an interesting article on some of our founders Religious beliefs The Founders' Faith - George Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, religion, faith, beliefs, Thomas Jefferson

 

[kmoose]

Its no secret what he believes. He has made numerous statements on his position and he is just propagating DI propaganda. The link pkt posted has several of the more stupid and egregiously erroneous claims. I am almost concerned he practiced medicine.

Again, I ask......... what in his past makes you believe that there is strong evidence that he would allow his religious views to trump what is best for the country, should he be elected?

 

[Cackalacky]

To be fair, there is nothing he could do to get either of your votes. I doubt this single issue would swing a large number of moderates.

Well, to an extent. My vote is almost always closed to a Republican by default. The party platform in general is a big turnoff for me. But, seriously, and I may offend several people here but I can't take a person seriously if they hold that evolution is a fairy tale. I mean that is rich considering the other option is not even realistically verifiable by materialistic methods. If I can't take you seriously, you are not getting my vote.

 

[kmoose]

First, many were loosely Christian (many believed in God, some not so much Jesus, and some had a disdain for organized religion). I think that Deist is a good description of some of them as well. 2nd, they didn't push their religion when running and in fact many of them kept their religious beliefs as private as possible. When candidates want to push their religious beliefs and how they will enact those religious beliefs (see Huckabee, and others) if they become President can (and some would say should) be worrisome.

So now you are an expert on the depth of the religious views of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, et al? How long have you been studying the psychology of their religious views?

I'm not defending Carson. I like his intelligence and his humble demeanor. I have no idea if that alone would translate to being a good President. But I do think that too many people place too much emphasis on "pet issues". I don't care if you are Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Jewish, or even Muslim, as long as you don't let your religion interfere with running the country.

 

[Cackalacky]

Again, I ask......... what in his past makes you believe that there is strong evidence that he would allow his religious views to trump what is best for the country, should he be elected?

Again.....I say, by evidence of his statements and his actions to date.... he is willing to forgo data in lieu of his personal beliefs and not only forgo them but willfully misrepresent them. That is a red flag. A big one. Would he do that in a room full of advisors...maybe, maybe not. I am not willing to take that chance given his predisposition to forgo the founding principle of his profession and willfuly misrepresent the facts (or at best completely misunderstand them so that he holds a very erroneous position).

 

[Grahambo]

No doubt. That is a very reasonable position to have. Evolution does not disprove God.It can't. Its the opposite of Ben Carson's opinion though. He rejects evolution, the founding principle of his profession.

So, can I count on your vote...or...umm...stuff?

 

[Wild Bill]

Well, to an extent. My vote is almost always closed to a Republican by default. The party platform in general is a big turnoff for me. But, seriously, and I may offend several people here but I can't take a person seriously if they hold that evolution is a fairy tale. I mean that is rich considering the other option is not even realistically verifiable by materialistic methods. If I can't take you seriously, you are not getting my vote.

Carson has hurdles to overcome. Being taken seriously by moderates or right wingers isn't one of them, IMO. He's just far too accomplished of a man. His opinion on evolution simply isn't enough to strip them away.

 

[Cackalacky]

So, can I count on your vote...or...umm...stuff?

Yes. I remember I wanted you as my International Policy Adviser when we were tossing over starting an IE Continental Congress thread a while back. SO yes you would have my vote and stuff. Haha.

 

[kmoose]

Again.....I say, by evidence of his statements and his actions to date.... he is willing to forgo data in lieu of his personal beliefs and not only forgo them but willfully misrepresent them. That is a red flag. A big one. Would he do that in a room full of advisors...maybe, maybe not. I am not willing to take that chance given his predisposition to forgo the founding principle of his profession and willfuly misrepresent the facts (or at best completely misunderstand them so that he holds a very erroneous position).

You just described every candidate in the race?

 

[Grahambo]

Yes. I remember I wanted you as my International Policy Adviser when we were tossing over starting an IE Continental Congress thread a while back. SO yes you would have my vote and stuff. Haha.

Yes! One down and like a billion more to go.

IE Continental Congress?? I do not recall this thread.

Is the job offer still available?

I will take it.

Fine. Ill take $0 salary. You drive a hard bargain.

Can we get a thread like that going again?? Because nerd...and America.

 

[pkt77242]

So now you are an expert on the depth of the religious views of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, et al? How long have you been studying the psychology of their religious views?

I'm not defending Carson. I like his intelligence and his humble demeanor. I have no idea if that alone would translate to being a good President. But I do think that too many people place too much emphasis on "pet issues". I don't care if you are Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Jewish, or even Muslim, as long as you don't let your religion interfere with running the country.

LOL. I have read multiple books about the founders, at least one biography of most of the important ones (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Adams, etc.) and I have taken college courses on the founders and the founding of the U.S. Shockingly most biographies touch upon the religiousness or lack there of, so I feel confident talking about not only their adult religious views but also their religious upbringing. Also we have a significant amount of letters and writings from the founders upon which to draw.

I agree that someone's religious affiliation or lack there of does not matter to me but unfortunately in our country it is very important.

 

[pkt77242]

Carson has hurdles to overcome. Being taken seriously by moderates or right wingers isn't one of them, IMO. He's just far too accomplished of a man. His opinion on evolution simply isn't enough to strip them away.

It isn't just his view on evolution, he has some pretty fringe views.

Views on war
Ben Carson Calls For No Rules In War

Prison making people gay

How about Congress should remove judges for voting for SSM.

“Obamacare is really I think the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery.” “And it is in a way, it is slavery in a way, because it is making all of us subservient to the government, and it was never about health care,” he added. “It was about control.”

Those are hardly things that impress moderates. Yes he was a good neurosurgeon, unfortunately that doesn't make him a good presidential candidate.

ETA: Those might play well during the primary but will most likely turn off many moderate voters.

 

[Grahambo]

First, many were loosely Christian (many believed in God, some not so much Jesus, and some had a disdain for organized religion). I think that Deist is a good description of some of them as well. 2nd, they didn't push their religion when running and in fact many of them kept their religious beliefs as private as possible. When candidates want to push their religious beliefs and how they will enact those religious beliefs (see Huckabee, and others) if they become President can (and some would say should) be worrisome.

ETA: Here is an interesting article on some of our founders Religious beliefs The Founders' Faith - George Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, religion, faith, beliefs, Thomas Jefferson

The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity | Founding Fathers | Britannica.com

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I care more that he thinks Obamacare is even comparable to slavery or Nazi Germany. It shows me he's not a serious candidate.

Iowa polls suggest he is a serious candidate. We elected Obama (twice) and he spent 20 years in the "church" of Jeremiah Wright, and we know what aisle we're shopping down with that guy.

I don't think it really matters what any candidate believes about evolution/ creation.

 

[Cackalacky]

Yes! One down and like a billion more to go.

IE Continental Congress?? I do not recall this thread.

Is the job offer still available?

I will take it.

Fine. Ill take $0 salary. You drive a hard bargain.

Can we get a thread like that going again?? Because nerd...and America.

That thread is here>http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/leprechaun-lounge/116878-new-continental-congress.html it was promising but petered out. May be worth resurrecting?