Brady Quinn Chokes in the Big games

[irishfan]

No, I don't think its Brady. I think Weis can't win the big game. Name one big game that has been hyped up that he won.

Michigan in 2005. Pittsburgh, Washington, and Tennessee were pretty hyped last year in case you don't remember. Georgia Tech and Penn State were both big games, and Michigan State was pretty hyped too.

 

[alexnd]

See my biggest contention with your claim is that these "Big games", as you define them, have one thing in common. They are all vastly superior talent-wise than we are. So does Brady Quinn do worse in games in which the opposite team is more talented at every position except QB? Well yeah....duh.

If anyone is not pulling their weight in these loses, it is most certainly not Quinn. Does he have bad games in his career? yeah. But what do you want from him?

If you look at Quinn and what he has gone through and also accomplished these past 4 years, and dont see a winner, then I dont know what to tell you.

Here, we start sniffing another issue with these types of threads. Far too often we fail to not only agree upon the basic fact(s) of an argument but more significantly we fail to even identify what those/that fact(s) are/is.

For this thread, before engaging in a poo throwing contest we should first agree upon what it means to choke for a college quarterback and how decidedly poor play from other aspects of the team forces less than stellar play from a quarterback.

It seems as though Clotho has drawn the line somewhere around "did not play as well against bad teams as he did against good teams." or perhaps "did not singlehandedly will his team to victory along with posting incredible stats" is more appropriate. you see, clotho, i'm not completely sure what your definition of choking is, so i'm left to assume stuff like this. frankly, i find these criteria to be something different than choke criteria.

Quarterbacks dont perform in a vaccuum, rather they are heavily dependent upon an offensive line for time to make reads, receivers to run crisp routes and catch the well thrown balls, running backs to pick up the yards they're supposed to, defenses that can make enough stops to keep the offense form having to be one-dimensional and thereby avoid becoming predictable. Good QBs can absorb poor showings from one or two of these facets and still emerge with a victory. What not even the best QBs can do is absorb dropped balls, poor defense, and bad line play. It just does not happen.

A QB that chokes is, in my opinion, one that a.) enters a game with lofty expectation, b.) makes poor reads, c.) forces balls into double/triple coverage, d.) kills his team with bad play and a quitter attitude.

Drew Stanton, Reggie Ball, anybody?

We gotta be able to agree upon this before starting to talk about whether or not Brady is a choker.

 

[kjones]

Regular games- 315.7 yds, 3.1 TD, 0.4 INT, 67% completions, 8.84 yards per attempt
Big games- 239.6 yds, 1.8 TD, 0.8 INT, 56% completions, 5.90 yards per attempt

If CLothi is trying to say he choked, then he has a fallacious argument. Pretty much a "big game" means we are going against a good defense. So what he is saying is that when we are playing an above average defense, Quinn's numbers should be exactly the same, or at least close to the same as when we are playing a mediocre or bad defense. Sorry man, things don't work like that. Factor in other things besides Quinn's play: Recievers being covered better, more pressure on QB, less of a running game, etc. I don't think you can build a case for Quinn "choking" in big games. It's just harder to score on good defenses and stats reflect that. I don't think his big games stats are something most people would say "oh, he laid an egg every time." There might be one or two bad games, but to average 240 yards, you have to be throwing more than that a few times, which actually isn't bad, its good.


And to think, this whole thing might have been avoided if people just didn't quote Clotho....

 

[Doomsday Device]

Here are Quinn's stats over the last 2 years against opponents who finished in the top 25 in the country for total defence, games in which he should perhaps "choke". While obviously they're not going to be as good as his overall stats, they're still solid numbers. The completion percentage drops significantly, but stays at a respectable level. And he throws for more or less the same yardage per game. However, it's notable that other than the Michigan game, he doesn't throw a single interception against these defences.

Team(Def Rk) Comp/Att Yds TD Int
Ohio State(5) 29/45 286 0 0
Tennessee(6) 20/33 295 3 0
Michigan(6) 24/48 234 3 3
Penn State(16) 25/37 287 3 0
Georgia Tech (21) 23/38 246 0 0
Southern Cal(23) 22/45 274 3 0
Total 143/246 (58.1) 1622 (270.3) 12 3

 

[irishnd31]

Here are Quinn's stats over the last 2 years against opponents who finished in the top 25 in the country for total defence, games in which he should perhaps "choke". While obviously they're not going to be as good as his overall stats, they're still solid numbers. The completion percentage drops significantly, but stays at a respectable level. And he throws for more or less the same yardage per game. However, it's notable that other than the Michigan game, he doesn't throw a single interception against these defences.

Team(Def Rk) Comp/Att Yds TD Int
Ohio State(5) 29/45 286 0 0
Tennessee(6) 20/33 295 3 0
Michigan(6) 24/48 234 3 3
Penn State(16) 25/37 287 3 0
Georgia Tech (21) 23/38 246 0 0
Southern Cal(23) 22/45 274 3 0
Total 143/246 (58.1) 1622 (270.3) 12 3

Well done Doomsday. Reps for the research.

 

[Clotho]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Tennessee, Washington, or any "tough defense" is a "big game." It's not. Those are not top 25 teams, any of them. That Quinn put up numbers against top 25 defenses Penn State and Tennessee the past two years, yet struggled against top 25 defenses Michigan and USC, says that the pressure of the game, and not of the defense, gets to Quinn.

And YES, he struggled against SC this year. HE heaved it 45 times and completed fewer than half his passes.

And if you want an explanation of how that constitutes choking, here it is. Against USC, score 0-0, first possession-

3rd-9, USC29 12:25 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right
4th-9, USC29 12:16 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

Down 7, momentum gone, second possession-

2nd-6, UND31 7:30 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
3rd-6, UND31 7:26 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
4th-6, UND31 7:23 G. Price punt. D. Reed returned punt for 42 yards

Down 14, in the Red Zone-

1st-10, USC10 0:55 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right
2nd-10, USC10 0:49 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
3rd-10, USC10 0:44 B. Quinn incomplete pass down the middle
4th-10, USC10 0:39 C. Gioia kicked a 27-yard field goal

Down 21-10, his defense having gotten him a quick INT-

4th-4, USC46 4:49 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

Down 21-10, his defense having gotten him another-

3rd-6, USC32 2:33 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
4th-6, USC32 2:27 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

One last chance before halftime, down 11-

1st-10, UND27 0:30 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
2nd-10, UND27 0:12 B. Quinn passed to M. Freeman down the middle for 11 yard gain
1st-10, UND38 0:04 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left


The half ended, SC soon went up 28-10, and the game was never in doubt. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[njuneardave]

hmmm.... that doesn't include DROPS or THROW AWAYS from pressure... it just says "incomplete". clotho, brady practically won the game for us against USC last year only to have our defense choke. if choking is driving down the field on the last possession and scoring the go-ahead touchdown is not good enough, nothing ever is.

 

[Clotho]

Brady practically won the game last year? Really? So Zbikowski's punt return, Travis Thomas's TD run, Mike Richardson's big INT, all of those were Brady, huh? That was as much a team performance as it's possible to be.

 

[njuneardave]

wow, you take things out of context. read the 3rd sentence in the post to clarify my 2nd sentence. i don't know why i even try..... in fact... i am going to stop

 

[Clotho]

That's a common tactic here when someone's proven wrong, or even argued with. Exit the argument, or block the arguer.

 

[goldenechoes]

Brady practically won the game last year? Really? So Zbikowski's punt return, Travis Thomas's TD run, Mike Richardson's big INT, all of those were Brady, huh? That was as much a team performance as it's possible to be.

So he cant single handedly win it, but he can single-handedly lose it?

Thats hater logic.

 

[alexnd]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Tennessee, Washington, or any "tough defense" is a "big game." It's not. Those are not top 25 teams, any of them. That Quinn put up numbers against top 25 defenses Penn State and Tennessee the past two years, yet struggled against top 25 defenses Michigan and USC, says that the pressure of the game, and not of the defense, gets to Quinn.

And YES, he struggled against SC this year. HE heaved it 45 times and completed fewer than half his passes.

And if you want an explanation of how that constitutes choking, here it is. Against USC, score 0-0, first possession-

3rd-9, USC29 12:25 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right
4th-9, USC29 12:16 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

Down 7, momentum gone, second possession-

2nd-6, UND31 7:30 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
3rd-6, UND31 7:26 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
4th-6, UND31 7:23 G. Price punt. D. Reed returned punt for 42 yards

Down 14, in the Red Zone-

1st-10, USC10 0:55 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right
2nd-10, USC10 0:49 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
3rd-10, USC10 0:44 B. Quinn incomplete pass down the middle
4th-10, USC10 0:39 C. Gioia kicked a 27-yard field goal

Down 21-10, his defense having gotten him a quick INT-

4th-4, USC46 4:49 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

Down 21-10, his defense having gotten him another-

3rd-6, USC32 2:33 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
4th-6, USC32 2:27 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

One last chance before halftime, down 11-

1st-10, UND27 0:30 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
2nd-10, UND27 0:12 B. Quinn passed to M. Freeman down the middle for 11 yard gain
1st-10, UND38 0:04 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left


The half ended, SC soon went up 28-10, and the game was never in doubt. Draw your own conclusions.

Again, good work bringing something to the table. At this point i really wish i had the game on tape so i could look back and see how these plays developed. I hate blanket statements. They're typically employed by the simple or lazy to help explain their way out of complex situations. That said, if the majority of these incompletions are truly the fault of brady crapping the bed, then yeah, i'd start getting on board the "Brady choked against SC this year" bandwagon. Further, i will agree that Brady had several "WTF" throws in the SC game. I wa son my way to being fairly hammered, but a number of tosses were just plain bad balls. Fortunately he never made mistakes into defenders, always away from them.

Anyone have the tape and wherewithal to review these plays Clotho posted to see what really happened?

 

[njuneardave]

That's a common tactic here when someone's proven wrong, or even argued with. Exit the argument, or block the arguer.

no clotho. i am not proven wrong. my 3rd sentence was a support statement for the 2nd sentence, but, as always, you chose to take statements out of context to manipulate them for some controversy.

 

[kjones]

That's a common tactic here when someone's proven wrong, or even argued with. Exit the argument, or block the arguer.

Clotho, you are a classic case of someone who doesn't even really care about the logic of your argument, as long as you think you are "winning." He wasn't proven wrong, and you didn't really argue with his point. You took something out of context (again) and attacked it instead of the whole substance of his point. This is called "strong man" tactics. You're not really attacking what they are saying, which is why people get so frustrated with you. When someone says somethign about your posts, you expect them to include the context, and yet neglect to do the same. When someone calls you out on it, and expresses their frustration with this, you say they are just "exiting." I'm not going to let my argument sink to the ad hominem level you and others so easily fall into, but your sort of arguing isn't fair or logical.

 

[grantland]

Guys, we will NEVER be able to convince each other that either Brady is a choker or he isn't and if CW can't win the big game or he can. Discussing it is one thing, but arguing about it and insulting each other? Now that's a useless post. I've finally realized that. This is a message board about football, get a grip. Some of you guys think you're writing for a sports publication. Some of you guys take days to think through posts and then evaluate other posts for the amount of research that went into it? And if it doesn't meet your standards, you insult the poster. Whoa. Ease up. It's a message board about football. You're not being graded and people aren't telling their friends about the clarity and attention to detail in your reports.

Relax and have some fun.

Jersey is cool.

Go look at the thread I just started "Brady for Heisman - Still."

 

[NDAlumSon]

And if you want an explanation of how that constitutes choking, here it is. Against USC, score 0-0, first possession-

3rd-9, USC29 12:25 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right
4th-9, USC29 12:16 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

Down 7, momentum gone, second possession-

2nd-6, UND31 7:30 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
3rd-6, UND31 7:26 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
4th-6, UND31 7:23 G. Price punt. D. Reed returned punt for 42 yards

Down 14, in the Red Zone-

1st-10, USC10 0:55 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right
2nd-10, USC10 0:49 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
3rd-10, USC10 0:44 B. Quinn incomplete pass down the middle
4th-10, USC10 0:39 C. Gioia kicked a 27-yard field goal

Down 21-10, his defense having gotten him a quick INT-

4th-4, USC46 4:49 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

Down 21-10, his defense having gotten him another-

3rd-6, USC32 2:33 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
4th-6, USC32 2:27 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the right

One last chance before halftime, down 11-

1st-10, UND27 0:30 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left
2nd-10, UND27 0:12 B. Quinn passed to M. Freeman down the middle for 11 yard gain
1st-10, UND38 0:04 B. Quinn incomplete pass to the left


The half ended, SC soon went up 28-10, and the game was never in doubt. Draw your own conclusions.

Well...kudos for the work and effort that went into that analysis, Clotho.
But, alex is right in this respect; you can't just describe the result of the play as "incomplete" when you're trying to establish that the cause of the result was Brady Quinn. I'm sure you'll agree with that.

Again, good work bringing something to the table. At this point i really wish i had the game on tape so i could look back and see how these plays developed. I hate blanket statements. They're typically employed by the simple or lazy to help explain their way out of complex situations. That said, if the majority of these incompletions are truly the fault of brady crapping the bed, then yeah, i'd start getting on board the "Brady choked against SC this year" bandwagon. Further, i will agree that Brady had several "WTF" throws in the SC game. I was on my way to being fairly hammered, but a number of tosses were just plain bad balls. Fortunately he never made mistakes into defenders, always away from them.

Anyone have the tape and wherewithal to review these plays Clotho posted to see what really happened?

I deleted my copy of the USC game. Like all the games, I re-watch them and chuck 'em.
The future is too bright to be saving a lot of ho-hum games, from an entertainment perspective. We won some good one, we won some tough ones, and we one some ugly ones. Unless their spectacularly memorable, I don't have the room. Hence, I've got none saved from this season. I'm hoping the Sugar Bowl performance will be a 'savable' game.
I did do an analysis of Brady's game against UCLA, much like Clothos. But I thought it only right to provide more detail, of each pass attempt, to help explain its result. Here.

 

[alexnd]

Well...kudos for the work and effort that went into that analysis, Clotho.
But, alex is right in this respect; you can't just describe the result of the play as "incomplete" when you're trying to establish that the cause of the result was Brady Quinn. I'm sure you'll agree with that.



I deleted my copy of the USC game. Like all the games, I re-watch them and chuck 'em.
The future is too bright to be saving a lot of ho-hum games, from an entertainment perspective. We won some good one, we won some tough ones, and we one some ugly ones. Unless their spectacularly memorable, I don't have the room. Hence, I've got none saved from this season. I'm hoping the Sugar Bowl performance will be a 'savable' game.
I did do an analysis of Brady's game against UCLA, much like Clothos. But I thought it only right to provide more detail, of each pass attempt, to help explain its result. Here.

That was a solid analysis. Many have noted the inaccuracy throughout both this season and last....seems to be something that he has yet to fully solve. However, i've also noticed that his decision making has improved greatly. He rarely throws into double/triple coverage anymore (something that was very problematic in the frosh/soph seasons). Also, when he misses it's typically away from the coverage like he's trying to be too careful and ends not even giving his receiver a chance. his ridiculous TD:Int ratios thes past two years are a testament to this improvement.

still, that inaccuracy is def a nagging concern.

 

[Clotho]

So he cant single handedly win it, but he can single-handedly lose it?

Thats hater logic.

No, I never said he "couldn't" single-handedly win a game, OR that he could single-handedly lose a game. I just argued that he did not single-handedly "almost" beat SC last year. He didn't have a great game last year, and the whole team contributed in huge ways. There are games that Quinn can be argued to have won single-handedly, but that wouldn't have been one of them.

 

[goldenechoes]

No, I never said he "couldn't" single-handedly win a game, OR that he could single-handedly lose a game. I just argued that he did not single-handedly "almost" beat SC last year. He didn't have a great game last year, and the whole team contributed in huge ways. There are games that Quinn can be argued to have won single-handedly, but that wouldn't have been one of them.

Oh, ok I get it. And I agree. Last years USC game was a team effort.

If Brady is the only one to show up, you get games like this year vs USC.

 

[BGIF]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by BGIF
Rep for the new guy!

Agree with the Blanket 25/Worthless Posts Points and that Brady has had suspect games and he don't play alone. Those were team losses.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Sigh...I guess I'm going to have to teach a class called sarcasm 101.

My initial statement was one that we as Irish fans hear every day. Then the body of the post was a contradiction of the first statement showing that Brady Quinn has good numbers even in losses. I even ended the paragraph stating that the intial argument was put to rest.

Class dismissed. You guys are way too uptight.

Before you undertake teaching a class in anything you need to get a fundamental grasp on reading AND comprehension. Then learn to chill before posting.

After your opening post, AlexND in the 2nd post in the thread noted

??? i hope you're wearing your sarcasm hat.

In the 5th post in the thread you noted

Um...defintely sarcasm.

OK Teach, your sarcasm was asked about and confirmed early on. Wasn't it?

In the 7<SUP>th</SUP> post Alex commented on the recently instituted 25 minimum posts requirement to read the Recruiting Profiles. I thought his Worthless Post Points was priceless. I agreed with his comments. I also noted that Quinn's teammates were involved in the losses.

Nowhere did I mention your post, did I goldenechoes?

Feel free to quote me where you think I did.

My dialog was clearly with the new guy who I quoted, who I gave Rep to, and who I responded to accordingly.

You were entirely irrelevant.



And as to Alex being uptight, back in Post #9, he apologized for his “little rant” and asked you to bear with him. You were so enamored with your own sarcasm that you completely misread several posts and then turned your sarcasm on other posters because you couldn't read straight.

You want to teach?

Learn to read first.

 

[buckeyebacker]

Someone said it earlier, Drew Stanton is a good example of a "choker"...remember back to the game with ND earlier this season, all he really had to do was get his punt team on the field and MSU most likely wins the game, however, he finds a wide open defensive back for the game winning touchdown, Brady Quinn a "choker"? Doubtful, you cant put it all on him, hes had his bad games in some big games, but that doesnt make him a choker...

 

[alexnd]

Someone said it earlier, Drew Stanton is a good example of a "choker"...remember back to the game with ND earlier this season, all he really had to do was get his punt team on the field and MSU most likely wins the game, however, he finds a wide open defensive back for the game winning touchdown, Brady Quinn a "choker"? Doubtful, you cant put it all on him, hes had his bad games in some big games, but that doesnt make him a choker...

Thank you. Football performance is not a binary situation. It's not a choke/heisman environment. Of course some are just too damn negative and love using emotionally charged words to get themselves going and to piss people off.

Chokers snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Chokers throw picks into triple coverage or right at linebackers on crucial drives. Chokers dont have a 3:1 td:int ratio in big games, they record the inverse. Sure, the comp % isnt where we'd like it to be and, frankly, wasnt where it needed to be to garner the victories we so desperately desired. Brady could have played better. There were plenty of downs where he simply threw a bad ball and didnt give his receiver a chance to make a play. But he minimized killer mistakes and managed the games well.

Brady isnt a win it all by himelf type of quarterback....he knows that. He's been schooled in how to take what the defense will give him, take a few chances downfield in one-on-one coverage, and let the game flow (you know, pretty much how the NFL works).

seriously, of the 12 picks over the past two years half or more were either tipped by the receiver or the line and at least one was the result of a terrible non-PI call (Army...that LB was riding Jeff 15 yards downfield). Sure, there were opportunities for more ints....dropped balls by DBs and the like, but they werent caught. every QB has a number of those on his virtual resume.

Brady isnt the greatest QB of all-time and who knows how he'll fare in the NFL, but Choker is most definitely not a label he should wear.

 

[buckeyebacker]

the thing i like about his game the most is that when hes got a guy deep, he'll put it out there, you never see a ball under thrown and picked, its his guys ball or no ones ball, nothing wrong with throwing incomplete passes as long as they hit the ground and not the other teams

 

[BGIF]

Brady Quinn is credited with 35 ND records. He holds a couple more although they're not in the books:

• Most Times Sacked
• Most Times Hit
• Most Times Hurried.

Remember his first freshman year getting tossed about like a rag doll? I often wondered how he got back up. He was a 4 year starter and took hits every year. He was dropped 30 times this year. Ron Powlus played behind some of the less notable ND OLines during a transition phase in ND football and took a beating. Quinn had better talent, receivers, and coaching (2 years anyway) but was called upon to put the ball in the air more times.

Quinn didn't always make the right call, didn't always execute correctly but in 4 years the only unforced error that comes to mind is the ball that slipped out of his hand this year in the Michigan game that was returned for a TD. He jumped on the "fumble" and it squirted free. A play that makes the highlight films a couple of times every season. The laws of probability. You handle the ball that frequently, statistics say no matter how infrequently, sometimes bad things happen.

It shows the desperation of his detractors that they have to rely on those few, very few plays to try to pin the choke label on Quinn. What's sadder is they frequently negate the fine defensive plays make by a defender that made an extraordinary play.

Stanton may have panicked in the face of a blitz but he didn't hit a wide open defensive back. Let's review the events that made that INT a reality.

• Minter made a great call for the down and yardage situation.
• The pass rush was there. Stanton was about to be trampled.
• One of the DTs dropped back while the LB blitzed, filling an open passing lane.
• Lambert was in position, step for step with his man.
• From hours of watching film, Lambert recognized the play and stepped in front of the receiver at precisely the right moment for the INT.
• Then he got a great block from a converted RB playing LB to score the TD in traffic.

Stanton didn't choke. A DC and his boys coordinated a series of events executing them flawlessly to produce a key turnover.

 

[NDAlumSon]

Maybe we should end this nonsense by refuting the original thread title with a simple...
No He Doesn't !

 

[sonomairishfan]

i wouldn't say that he chokes in big games. he just doesn't win them. as somebody stated earlier, it is a team sport. brady's toughness or competitive spirit will never be in question. he just hasn't won big games often. a huge part of that is the talent level of the players around him.

 

[SBhomer]

Every game is a big game in college, not like the pros where the Colts can go 10-0 then take an 8 week break.

 

[sonomairishfan]

i see what you are saying. but UM is a big game compared to say..... North Carolina.