Rioting in St Louis

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wizards8507

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I call bullshit. This guy is talking about more than Brown and Ferguson and you poo pooed him because you didn't like the lead paragraph of his article.

*snip*
Then write that article six months ago. Write that article and NEVER mention "Mike Brown" or "hands up, don't shoot." Are you that naive that you don't see that article for what it is: click bait capitalizing on a dead man and a persecuted police officer to stoke racial tension and promote an agenda.

You (GoIrish41) acknowledged that the Michael Brown case is NOT a case of a cop shooting a black man out of racism. Why, then, would you even MENTION Michael Brown in this "larger conversation" you want to have, if Brown and the "larger conversation" are completely unrelated?
 

adsnorri

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Are you suggesting we need a greater police presence in "white neighborhoods" or less of a presence in "black neighborhoods"?

I'm suggesting less of a presence in black neighborhoods and more of a balance.

The big fish don't live in the poor neighborhoods. They send their shit there where cops harass many people. If they harassed the same amount of white people, they would have the same amount of arrests, maybe more.
 
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Just because something spurred it doesn't mean it has to be the only topic. You write the article now because it's in the news. It's topical.
 
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Hands Up Don't Shoot signifies a movement greater than Michael Brown and that's literally inarguable. It's a symbol that says black people are worried of being gunned down by cops. Michael Brown spurred the movement because of the shooting's location next to a majob metro area that has race issues.
 

wizards8507

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Just because something spurred it doesn't mean it has to be the only topic. You write the article now because it's in the news. It's topical.
No, "it" is not in the news. If "it" is racism of police departments, that's not what happened in this case. Linking "racist police" as a broad issue to the "killing of Michael Brown" as a specific issue STRONGLY implies that, in fact, "Michael Brown was killed by racist police." Best case scenario, it's an author capitalizing on a hot news item to draw eyes to his piece. Worst case scenario, he's deliberately misleading people and intentionally advancing an agenda that depends on racial division to survive.
 

GoIrish41

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Then write that article six months ago. Write that article and NEVER mention "Mike Brown" or "hands up, don't shoot." Are you that naive that you don't see that article for what it is: click bait capitalizing on a dead man and a persecuted police officer to stoke racial tension and promote an agenda.

You (GoIrish41) acknowledged that the Michael Brown case is NOT a case of a cop shooting a black man out of racism. Why, then, would you even MENTION Michael Brown in this "larger conversation" you want to have, if Brown and the "larger conversation" are completely unrelated?

Actually I did not acknowledge any such thing. I said I thought he was a thug and that it is unfortunate that the flashpoint that caused this discussion centered on a person who appears to have been so flawed. I don't know that cop wasn't racist any more than I knew he was. I've focused my comments on the need for a larger conversation, and petty observations about which examples an author wants to use in his lead instead of reading the article for what it was trying to say is conterproductive to doing that. The author mentioned the hands up symbol because there were people bitching that the Rams players were doing it as a symbol and that perhaps that symbol was bigger than they even understood. Seriously, have you even read the article?
 

adsnorri

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It sounds like some people on here think they know Darren Wilson.

If he was racist , do you think he would come out and say it?

The only major difference between today's racists and the old style of racism is that today's racists are too cowardly to show they are racist. At least you knew where you stood with the racists of 30 years ago. Not much racism has gone away since the kkk was holding rallies every month, it is just hidden better.

This coming from a white man that has had many altercations among groups of white people because some assholes think they are fine with blurting racist terms because there are no black people around. Some of these people are Directors of major operations, some have many black people working under them.

It is eye opening.
 

GoIrish41

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The biggest problem I have with the "other side" in this whole argument is that they've presumed to tell me about what's in MY head and heart. I've been called a racist several times in this thread and there's nothing that pisses me off more than when people tell me what I think or feel. You can disagree with why I think or feel all you want (politics thread), but don't assign motivations to my opinions based on your own biases.


Why is it on the police? The police respond to the actions of the people (i.e. when the people commit crimes). Police altercations will decline when people stop doing the crimes to which the police are forced to respond. Police incidents like this one generally don't happen in the "nice" neighborhoods because people generally aren't robbing convenience stores in the "nice" neighborhoods.

You do this very thing to people all the time wiz. just sayin. Just the latest example is your complete dismissal of an article because you didn't like the first line in it ... therefore refused to discuss its content because its a flat out lie. You miss the forrest through the trees ... a lot.
 

wizards8507

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You do this very thing to people all the time wiz. just sayin. Just the latest example is your complete dismissal of an article because you didn't like the first line in it ... therefore refused to discuss its content because its a flat out lie. You miss the forrest through the trees ... a lot.
Actually I was taking an even broader approach than the "forest." If the "tree" is the lie and the "forest" is the content, I was commenting on the "bigger forest" (?) that is the motivation behind the article.
 

GoIrish41

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Actually I was taking an even broader approach than the "forest." If the "tree" is the lie and the "forest" is the content, I was commenting on the "bigger forest" (?) that is the motivation behind the article.

Don't look now, but you are assigning motivation to the author ... the very thing you say you hate when people do to you. I think the message the author was trying to convey is extremely clear, but that tree named Michael Brown just keeps getting in your way of understanding it.
 

Wild Bill

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I'm suggesting less of a presence in black neighborhoods and more of a balance.

The big fish don't live in the poor neighborhoods. They send their shit there where cops harass many people. If they harassed the same amount of white people, they would have the same amount of arrests, maybe more.

Patrol specific neighborhoods less than others simply b/c the residents are black? This type of policy doesn't strike you as racist?

I enjoy seeing officers around my neighborhood. Their mere presence deters crime, and frankly, I don't give a shit if they hassle petty criminals. They're still criminals and I want them as far from me as possible.
 

wizards8507

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Don't look now, but you are assigning motivation to the author ... the very thing you say you hate when people do to you.
"The media" is held to a different standard than a bunch of private individuals bullshitting on a message board.
 

GoIrish41

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"The media" is held to a different standard than a bunch of private individuals bullshitting on a message board.

So are cops, man.

But to your point, young black kids being terrified of police is NOT the fault of the media.
 

adsnorri

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Patrol specific neighborhoods less than others simply b/c the residents are black? This type of policy doesn't strike you as racist?

I enjoy seeing officers around my neighborhood. Their mere presence deters crime, and frankly, I don't give a shit if they hassle petty criminals. They're still criminals and I want them as far from me as possible.

I understand your thinking but that is not the way it is working.

You say "patrol". They are not simply patrolling. They are harassing individuals and are trying to put fear into their minds.

Yes, to not just patrol "black" neighborhoods would be racist. However, can you agree that overpatrolling is racist? For example; yesterday I had to drive thru an area of mostly black people and as my friend and I were driving down this street, there were 2-3 cops on each street for 3 blocks straight. This is not the first time either.

Ever heard of stop and frisk?
 

wizards8507

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But to your point, young black kids being terrified of police is NOT the fault of the media.
Terrified? The lyrical geniuses behind "F*** tha Police" and "Cop Killer" strike you as a particularly fearful bunch?

Separately: Why are we acting like there aren't LOADS of black cops, too? Last I checked, both the police force and the general population are right around 75% white.

Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Local Police
 

GoIrish41

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Terrified? The lyrical geniuses behind "F*** tha Police" and "Cop Killer" strike you as a particularly fearful bunch?

Separately: Why are we acting like there aren't LOADS of black cops, too? Last I checked, both the police force and the general population are right around 75% white.

Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Local Police

Yes terrified ... there is a mistrust in the police among many in the black community that runs deep. It is a lack of trust built on decades of systematic poor treatment of the black community. I know you don't want to burden yourself with the thoughts of others who don't agree with you, but there are dozens of examples of such systemic problems discussed in this very thread. But, you go ahead and use the anecdotal information of a couple of rappers and ignore that the vast majority of African Americans have a healthy fear of the police. Nobody is saying that all cops are white. In Ferguson an extremely high percentage of the police force is white while the majority of the population is black. Add in a dash of historic baked in mistrust and that is a big problem waiting to happen -- especially when the cops react to protests in tanks and full body armor.
 

Wild Bill

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I understand your thinking but that is not the way it is working.

You say "patrol". They are not simply patrolling. They are harassing individuals and are trying to put fear into their minds.

I'm not naive enough to believe all officers are good, none of them profile and that they don't make mistakes. But they're not out there shaking down law abiding citizens on a street corner.

Yes, to not just patrol "black" neighborhoods would be racist. However, can you agree that overpatrolling is racist? For example; yesterday I had to drive thru an area of mostly black people and as my friend and I were driving down this street, there were 2-3 cops on each street for 3 blocks straight. This is not the first time either.

Ever heard of stop and frisk?

No, I can't agree. I think Barkley was spot on with his recent comment:

“[W]e have to be really careful with the cops, because if it wasn’t for the cops we would be living in the Wild, Wild West in our neighborhoods," he said. "We can’t pick out certain incidentals that don’t go our way and act like the cops are all bad.... Do you know how bad some of these neighborhoods would be if it wasn't for the cops?”

I've heard of stop and frisk. I don't like it but it works.
 

wizards8507

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Yes terrified ... there is a mistrust in the police among many in the black community that runs deep. It is a lack of trust built on decades of systematic poor treatment of the black community. I know you don't want to burden yourself with the thoughts of others who don't agree with you, but there are dozens of examples of such systemic problems discussed in this very thread. But, you go ahead and use the anecdotal information of a couple of rappers and ignore that the vast majority of African Americans have a healthy fear of the police. Nobody is saying that all cops are white. In Ferguson an extremely high percentage of the police force is white while the majority of the population is black. Add in a dash of historic baked in mistrust and that is a big problem waiting to happen -- especially when the cops react to protests in tanks and full body armor.
On that we agree. I hate the militarization of local police. You lose me when you somehow try to link it to race. Concord, NH wanted a military style vehicle to use against Occupy Wall Street and the Free State Project (a libertarian bunch), and I don't think you'll find a much whiter place in America than Concord, NH.

N.H. City Wants a "Tank" to Use Against Occupiers and Libertarians | Mother Jones
 

GoIrish41

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On that we agree. I hate the militarization of local police. You lose me when you somehow try to link it to race. Concord, NH wanted a military style vehicle to use against Occupy Wall Street and the Free State Project (a libertarian bunch), and I don't think you'll find a much whiter place in America than Concord, NH.

N.H. City Wants a "Tank" to Use Against Occupiers and Libertarians | Mother Jones

did they get one? did they every use it? actually I don't know the answer to this, but has there been ANY instance when such equipment has been used against white protestors?
 

tommyIRISH23

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Yes terrified ... there is a mistrust in the police among many in the black community that runs deep. It is a lack of trust built on decades of systematic poor treatment of the black community. I know you don't want to burden yourself with the thoughts of others who don't agree with you, but there are dozens of examples of such systemic problems discussed in this very thread. But, you go ahead and use the anecdotal information of a couple of rappers and ignore that the vast majority of African Americans have a healthy fear of the police. Nobody is saying that all cops are white. In Ferguson an extremely high percentage of the police force is white while the majority of the population is black. Add in a dash of historic baked in mistrust and that is a big problem waiting to happen -- especially when the cops react to protests in tanks and full body armor.

Terrified lol? what do you base this on? How much time have you spent in black neighborhoods. I can garuntee I have spent much more than you have spent and black kids are not terrified of cops. Just because your sociology professor told you so, who himself, has never spent meaningful time interacting with the "poor" other than treating them like lab rats in an attempt to verify his own opinions that are based off "data".

I am a cop in one of the top 10 most dangerous cities in america. I interact regularly with the residents of my city and not one of them runs from or acts fearful of me. They joke around, laugh, and help when they can.

lol and to the moron who said less patrols in black neighborhoods with high crime rates is a great idea....really? what fuckin world do you live in? have you ever been in a city? the residents that arent criminals (99%) welcome increased police and will request more patrols on their streets when they feel theres more need. The tip lines recievers 100's of calls a night.
 

tommyIRISH23

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I understand your thinking but that is not the way it is working.

You say "patrol". They are not simply patrolling. They are harassing individuals and are trying to put fear into their minds.

Yes, to not just patrol "black" neighborhoods would be racist. However, can you agree that overpatrolling is racist? For example; yesterday I had to drive thru an area of mostly black people and as my friend and I were driving down this street, there were 2-3 cops on each street for 3 blocks straight. This is not the first time either.

Ever heard of stop and frisk?

Ever think to ask why? Or is your brainwashed mind automatically zeroing in on race? Do some research on how patrol grids are drawn up and what methodologies are used. And ask the residents who arent criminals how they feel about increased police presence. Youll be conveniently ignoring their responses.
 

tommyIRISH23

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Patrol specific neighborhoods less than others simply b/c the residents are black? This type of policy doesn't strike you as racist?

I enjoy seeing officers around my neighborhood. Their mere presence deters crime, and frankly, I don't give a shit if they hassle petty criminals. They're still criminals and I want them as far from me as possible.

Again, they are not patrolled because the residents are black. They are patrolled in response to crime that is reported by residents. If there were not crime; there would not be as many cops. Its that simple. The criminals figure that out and move whatever theyre doing to another area and the cops follow them there. Believe it or not; we are all not GED holding fat racist morons. Theres a science to how patrols are constructed and it does not involve race.

This kind of talk may get you high fives in your urban studies class but, unfortunately, its doesnt hold up to reality.
 
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I've spent time in black neighborhoods and live in about a half-black one right now, and people are afraid of the police. Hate from "fuck the police" and "cop killer" and whatnot comes from fear. I think it's obvious why people try not to act scared around cops. People are protesting because they are afraid of the same thing happening to them or their kids. What happened not only to Michael Brown but John Crawford, Darrien Hunt, Tamir Rice, etc.
 

Wild Bill

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Again, they are not patrolled because the residents are black. They are patrolled in response to crime that is reported by residents. If there were not crime; there would not be as many cops. Its that simple. The criminals figure that out and move whatever theyre doing to another area and the cops follow them there. Believe it or not; we are all not GED holding fat racist morons. Theres a science to how patrols are constructed and it does not involve race.

This kind of talk may get you high fives in your urban studies class but, unfortunately, its doesnt hold up to reality.

What kind of talk? I was defending officers, not calling them fat, uneducated racists.
 
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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Afd2_yvOE4g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Appeals Court Orders Fired Owasso Cop To Be Reinstated - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

The Oklahoma Court of Civil Appeals reversed a lower court's ruling and ordered the city of Owasso to reinstate a police officer fired for striking a man during an arrest.

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014, the court ruled in favor of Mike Denton, who was fired after an arrest on June 30, 2011.

Denton and two other officers arrested Bryan Spradlin that day after answering a call about an intoxicated man creating a disturbance at an apartment complex.

7/10/2012: Related Story: City Of Owasso Releases Video Of Officer Hitting Suspect

The arrest was videotaped by cameras on the officers' lapels and showed Denton step on Spradlin's head and then strike Spradlin in the face with his elbow three separate times.

Denton told News On 6 that he was protecting himself when he struck Spradlin.

7/10/2012: Related Story: Owasso Cop Fired For Excessive Force Speaks Out About Video

The city eventually fired Denton. The Fraternal Order of Police and Denton filed a grievance which was heard by federal mediator David Valverde in March of 2012.

Valverde ruled in favor of Denton, saying that he [Denton] "used unreasonable and unnecessary force against [Spradlin]. However, the discipline imposed is excessive under all circumstances." Valverde ordered the termination changed to a written reprimand and Denton given back pay and benefits.

Rather than abide by the arbitrator's order, the city filed suit against Denton and the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge #149.

The city argued that the arbitrator exceeded the authority granted him under the collective bargaining agreement between the FOP and the city and that because Denton used unreasonable force on an arrestee, reinstating him would violate Oklahoma public policy.

Judge Dana Kuehn ruled in the city's favor on January 8, 2013, but Denton and the FOP appealed.

On April 15, 2014, the Oklahoma Court of Civil Appeals reversed Kuehn's decision. In an opinion written by presiding judge Larry Joplin, the appeals court said the trial court erred in vacating the arbitrator's decision. It said there was no public policy impediment to reinstating Denton.

Read The Appeals Court's Ruling

Denton's attorney, James Patrick Hunt, said he expected the ruling and that he and his client are happy with it.

"The law was on our side. The law is pretty clear," Hunt said.

He doesn't know yet if the city of Owasso plans to appeal to the Oklahoma Supreme Court but said even if it does there's no guarantee the high court would agree to hear the case.

Tuesday night the city of Owasso released a statement about the opinion.

"We are disappointed in today's ruling and evaluating our options," said Owasso City Manager Warren Lehr.

Old news, which I just noticed right now. Still shows that it happens to all races, and I've never said otherwise, and it shows that suspensions can be reversed.
 
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<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:arc:video:thedailyshow.com:1978fe89-2194-4e3d-bef8-e9e1da7c9ad1" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://thedailyshow.cc.com/">The Daily Show</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href="http://thedailyshow.cc.com/full-episodes/">Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href="http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow">The Daily Show on Facebook</a>,<a href="http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos">Daily Show Video Archive</a></p></div></div>

Pretty good imo
 
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California police use of body cameras cuts violence and complaints | US news | The Guardian

The occupant was said to be violent, so officer Carlos Ramirez approached the apartment warily. A dank smell wafted from inside. Ramirez bristled with body armour, radio, gun and Taser, but before knocking on the door he adjusted just one piece of equipment: a tiny camera on his collar.

A tubby, barefoot man with broken teeth and wild eyes opened the door. He appeared to be high. Ramirez questioned him about allegedly beating and evicting his stepson, a mentally disabled teenager. The man shifted from foot to foot and babbled about death threats.

The encounter, tense but polite, ended inconclusively, a routine police foray into family dysfunction – except for the fact it was all recorded. As he returned to his patrol car and next assignment, Ramirez tapped an app on his phone and uploaded the video. "Somewhere down the line something could happen and what that guy said, his demeanour, could be evidence."

Rialto, a small, working-class city that bakes in the San Bernardino foothills outside Los Angeles, appeared in the films Transformers and The Hangover. Among law enforcers, however, it is becoming better known for pioneering the use of body cameras on police officers.

Over the past year all 70 of its uniformed officers have been kitted out with the oblong devices, about the size of stubby cigars, and the results have emboldened police forces elsewhere in the US and in the UK to follow suit.

The College of Policing recently announced plans for large-scale trials of body-worn video in England and Wales, saying Rialto's experiment showed big drops in the use of force and in public complaints against officers. David Davis, a former shadow home secretary, has backed the idea. It follows "plebgate's denting of public trust.

Rialto has also become an example for US forces since a federal judge in New York praised its initiative.

"I think we've opened some eyes in the law enforcement world. We've shown the potential," said Tony Farrar, Rialto's police chief. "It's catching on."

Body-worn cameras are not new. Devon and Cornwall police launched a pilot scheme in 2006 and forces in Strathclyde, Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, among others, have also experimented.

But Rialto's randomised controlled study has seized attention because it offers scientific – and encouraging – findings: after cameras were introduced in February 2012, public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers' use of force fell by 60%.

"When you know you're being watched you behave a little better. That's just human nature," said Farrar. "As an officer you act a bit more professional, follow the rules a bit better."

Video clips provided by the department showed dramatic chases on foot – you can hear the officer panting – and by car that ended with arrests, and without injury. Complaints often stemmed not from operational issues but "officers' mouths", said the chief. "With a camera they are more conscious of how they speak and how they treat people."

The same applied to the public; once informed they were being filmed, even drunk or agitated people tended to become more polite, Farrar said. Those who lodged frivolous or bogus complaints about officers tended to retract them when shown video of the incidents. "It's like, 'Oh, I hadn't seen it that way.'"

Cameras made officers more careful about using force. "It's still part of the business, they still do it. But now they make better use of what we call verbal judo."

Fewer complaints and calmer policing, said Farrar, would reduce lawsuits and expensive payouts.

Images of police brutality have shaken California since grainy footage of Los Angeles police officers beating Rodney King ignited riots in 1992. (Rialto police fished King out of his pool after he accidentally drowned last year).

In May sheriff's deputies in Kern county confiscated videophone footage of them fatally beating a father-of-four, David Silva, prompting suspicion of a cover-up.Videotaped sheriff's beating prompts charges of coverup after death - Los Angeles Times In those and other cases the officers did not know they were being filmed.

Farrar is a wonkish contrast to the stereotypical abrasive commander of TV dramas. He has several degrees, including a recent master's from Cambridge's Institute of Criminology, which planted the idea of methodically assessing the impact of body cameras.

Upon returning to Rialto (city motto: "bridge to progress") he obtained $100,000 (£62,640) in state and federal funding for the Taser-made cameras – about $1,000 each – plus servers and fibre-optic cables. Each officer has his or her own camera, mounted on collars, spectacles or caps, and is expected to activate it during interactions with the public. Encounters are logged and uploaded to a secure digital cloud service, evidence.com.

The chief advised bigger departments who wish to do the same to scale up incrementally, to iron out technical bugs and let officers get used to the idea.

In Rialto some bristled at the intrusion, fearing loss of privacy and autonomy. "I heard guys complaining it would get them into trouble, but I've had no problems so I'm OK with it," said Ramirez.

Most now accepted cameras as another part of the job, said Sgt Josh Lindsay. A self-confessed technophile, he said they provided context to contentious incidents partially captured by bystanders' phones. "Now you can see the [suspect] punching the officer twice in the face before he hits him with his baton."

Even more valuable, cameras aided evidence gathering, such as statements from domestic abuse victims, he said. "By the time those cases get to court often things have cooled down and the victim retracts. But with the video you see her with the bloody lip. There's nothing lost in translation."

Under California law police are not obliged to inform people of the filming. Local media coverage has spread awareness of the cameras but many, like the barefoot man questioned by Ramirez, appear oblivious. If there is to be a backlash, it is too early.

Even Orwell did not anticipate body cameras in 1984, but the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, a frequent critic of police abuses, said with the right controls accountability gains would outweigh privacy concerns. It urged the department to regularly delete videos, and keep them private, unless needed for prosecutions.

Farrar said controls were in place. "No one wants to see these videos on YouTube."

Good point about how body cams can change domestic cases. I never thought of that.
 

tommyIRISH23

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What kind of talk? I was defending officers, not calling them fat, uneducated racists.

Sorry read through like 50 comments quickly because of time crunch. I was responding to whoever said something along the lines of decreasing police patrols in high crime areas because those areas are black as if the patrol response is because the area is black
 

tommyIRISH23

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I've spent time in black neighborhoods and live in about a half-black one right now, and people are afraid of the police. Hate from "fuck the police" and "cop killer" and whatnot comes from fear. I think it's obvious why people try not to act scared around cops. People are protesting because they are afraid of the same thing happening to them or their kids. What happened not only to Michael Brown but John Crawford, Darrien Hunt,


That's funny. Because when my city laid off 75% of its police force to rebuild a new one, the terrified residents were begging for more police and blaming race for the layoffs while also asking for the national guard. Now that the new police force has been constructed and fully operational the residents are generally ecstatic about the increased police presence in their neighborhood. The residents are worried about the gang members warring on their street and bullets hitting their home.

Yeah I'm worried about my son becoming michael brown too. I'm worried ill fail as a parent and allow my kid to believe it's ok to rob people and punch cops in the face

You don't know anything about gangs, policing or criminal activity. I really don't believe your anything more than a pretentious middle-upperclass privileged kid who lives in his own world.
 
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