We are slow, Longo must go?

[BleedBlueGold]

You just have to take the time to read interviews and updates with these players. Harrison Smith who didn't have much time with him, specifically gave him credit for his late career revival.

Exactly. As did many other players. Who, btw, were from the CW days and got to experience more than one S/C coach. Therefore giving them enough information to make the judgment on one versus another. All of which applauded Longo for his role w/ the team.

 

[koonja]

A lot of the things you bring up have nothing to do with the s/c coach. If you want a deeper, more athletic team then you should've started a thread about that and questioned recruiting (which is ridiculous too, but you see my point).

You can absolutely judge the performance of a s/c coach by looking at the gains players are making in the off season and the longevity of their overall health throughout a season.

And if ST is what you're really getting at, you should've mentioned that from the very beginning. I don't agree, but what's the point in defending it. You seem to have your mind made up that it's all Longo's fault.

And you (and others) seem to have made up your mind that it's all BK/Diaco/Martin's fault that we take poor angles, can't play without thinking too much, poor personnel matchins, and our players might not have the strongest work ethic (someone argued 'you can't make them do the exercises).

Fine, disagree, with me. I'm trying to learn here, as I'm not an expert on the S/C position and how it factors into the on the field performance.

But can you tell me how a S/C coach's success is measured? And how to know when it's time to try something new? Is it simply avoiding injuries?

 

[koonja]

Exactly. As did many other players. Who, btw, were from the CW days and got to experience more than one S/C coach. Therefore giving them enough information to make the judgment on one versus another. All of which applauded Longo for his role w/ the team.

There's some evidence that Longo cannot be the problem. Not being sarcastic.

I'd still point to the fact that the kids you are referring to were comparing Longo to Weis's S/C, which is a terrible measuring stick, and there's no way they can compare to Bama/AM/Clemson, etc, but still.

 

[ryno 24]

Longo helped make cincy players much more athletic

 

[Ironman8]

Now, since you are harping on special teams, please tell me where that has been so lackluster in terms of athleticism and speed.

Our kick return unit is 12th in the NCAA in yards per return. Our punt return is averaging over 10 yards a return and is above USC, Georgia, Texas, Michigan, Miami, South Carolina and Clemson in that regard.

When was the last time we gave up a TD on a kick or punt return TD?

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm no expert.

Andrew is a 4-star on ESPN, Scout, 247, and 247 composite.

Exception /= rule.

Mark Andrews is listed as a TE by 2/4 sites. He's very athletic for a TE.

I agree that athleticism isn't all they're rated on, and size/frame are important, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think athleticism is a major factor.

No, no I'm not. Not as much as you think it is. Do some research. Its so easy to find dozens upon dozens of examples. Chris Brown was the #81 WR according to rivals, 66 ESPN, and 87 scout. I bet if you scroll up that list you'll find 50 WR that are less athletic than Chris Brown. And while your doing that remember that this is a HS national long jump and triple jump competitor. As well as a kid that runs sub 4.5.

 

[palinurus]

Not taking a side on the merits, but if my memory serves, nearly the first words out of Kelly's mouth after the NT game loss was along the lines that it was clear to him that the first thing his team needed to do for this year (2013) was to become stronger, the implication being that he thought that Alabama was stronger than our guys or in better shape. He clearly thought our guys got pushed around. This may go to the issue of the kind of shape the players were in at year end, and this may go to S&C.

 

[koonja]

Now, since you are harping on special teams, please tell me where that has been so lackluster in terms of athleticism and speed.

Our kick return unit is 12th in the NCAA in yards per return. Our punt return is averaging over 10 yards a return and is above USC, Georgia, Texas, Michigan, Miami, South Carolina and Clemson in that regard.

When was the last time we gave up a TD on a kick or punt return TD?[/QUOTE]

I've been talking about coverage more so than returning. We simply don't fly around and smack people like other teams in our stratosphere do. Again, court/porn example.

When's the last time we've punted well enough for a team to return, lol.

And my main point is special teams, but also depth. I'm shocked that Bama had 23 players play on defense in the 1st quarter against AM. That's insane, and you wouldn't have known if you didn't see the names, that's how great their depth is. They're not only recruiting well, but they're developing well and immediately.

I've been called an idiot, stupid, told to drive and crash my car, told I have down-syndrome, etc., but with all of those experts taking shots at me, no one has given a solid explanation of how you judge the performance of the S/C coach.

If someone who actually knows something on that, it'd be awesome to hear. So far, it sounds as if they can never be blamed for anything. I don't believe that's the case, but what do I know.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

And you (and others) seem to have made up your mind that it's all BK/Diaco/Martin's fault that we take poor angles, can't play without thinking too much, poor personnel matchins, and our players might not have the strongest work ethic (someone argued 'you can't make them do the exercises).

Fine, disagree, with me. I'm trying to learn here, as I'm not an expert on the S/C position and how it factors into the on the field performance.

But can you tell me how a S/C coach's success is measured? And how to know when it's time to try something new? Is it simply avoiding injuries?

You're not trying to learn. If you were, you would be more open minded towards the insight given by others.

If at the end of the year the OL and DL are getting pushed around, people would start to wonder what's going on. If you looked at the starting weight versus weight at the end of the season and found a loss of 10 pounds or so per player, you would start to question why that happened. The first two people that would be questioned are the s/c coach and the dietician. Over a period of time if players aren't making gains and are retracting in their overall strength, power, speed, agility, etc...the s/c coach will be questioned. As of right now, that hasn't been the case with Longo, therefore your self doubt in regards to Longo as a S/C coach is not justified. (I already know you'll pull the speed and agility comments out and try to use them against me. To that I say, name specific examples of a player retracting in his speed and agility and prove that it has everything to do with lack of training and not any other outside factor such as scheme, decision making ability, reaction time, etc).

I want to address your ST comments too. One comment BK made about the NC game was that Bama plays starters on ST and that was something he'd like to look into. There are some starters that currently play on ST. The others are usually in the two-deep and are very athletic (Max Redfield comes to mind). Personally, I think some of the reason more starters don't play on ST is because of depth issues and injury concern. That has nothing to do with Longo. Depth is something that's addressed during recruiting.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Ironman8]

Now, since you are harping on special teams, please tell me where that has been so lackluster in terms of athleticism and speed.

Our kick return unit is 12th in the NCAA in yards per return. Our punt return is averaging over 10 yards a return and is above USC, Georgia, Texas, Michigan, Miami, South Carolina and Clemson in that regard.

When was the last time we gave up a TD on a kick or punt return TD?[/QUOTE]

I've been talking about coverage more so than returning. We simply don't fly around and smack people like other teams in our stratosphere do. Again, court/porn example.

When's the last time we've punted well enough for a team to return, lol.

And my main point is special teams, but also depth. I'm shocked that Bama had 23 players play on defense in the 1st quarter against AM. That's insane, and you wouldn't have known if you didn't see the names, that's how great their depth is. They're not only recruiting well, but they're developing well and immediately.

I've been called an idiot, stupid, told to drive and crash my car, etc., but with all of those experts taking shots at me, no one has given a solid explanation of how you judge the performance of the S/C coach.

If someone who actually knows something on that, it'd be awesome to hear. So far, it sounds as if they can never be blamed for anything. I don't believe that's the case, but what do I know.

How many players do you think we played on D against Purdue in the 1st quarter?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

There's some evidence that Longo cannot be the problem. Not being sarcastic.

I'd still point to the fact that the kids you are referring to were comparing Longo to Weis's S/C, which is a terrible measuring stick, and there's no way they can compare to Bama/AM/Clemson, etc, but still.

Reuben Mendoza was the S/C coach at Ole Miss, Clemson, Tennessee, and South Carolina. Pretty sure you'd never question the speed of those teams at any time in the past.

 

[Irish#1]

You're conveniently missing a character that makes a big difference, that being the '?'.

We have beaten one ranked team in November in the last 3 years (could be further back too, but I only checked 3 years). Our November is our easiest stretch. That one ranked team we did beat was Utah who just came off of a 40 point beating and finished unranked.

Our November opponents:

2010: Utah, USC, Army (all unranked)
2011: Wake Forest, Maryland, Boston College, Stanford (loss), all unranked besided Stanford.
2012: Pittsburg, Boston College, Wake Forest, USC (all unranked).

Couple of things you're missing. Yes Kelly is getting his recruits now, but it will take one more class for him to finally have "his" team where he was able to recruit during the full cycle.

Bama probably used 23 players early in the game because of the heat and dehydration factors. You don't need to worry about that when you play in 70 degree weather.

As far as ST's, some coaches will play a lot of starters on ST, while other don't want to risk the injury and will use backups including 3rd stringers. That right there is going to "slow down" your ST play.

Under Weis, we had O linemen that started the season off on the north side of 300lb and were coming in at 280-290 by the end of the year. We won those late season games last year because the team had maintained their strength and speed.

A little clarification on increasing speed......as I mentioned before, you are either born with it or you weren't. You can increase anyone's speed a little by using the right type of stretching exercises and strength training. but you can't make a 5.0 40 time turn into 4.5. It's just not genetically possible without chemicals. Look at it this way. Why is the 100 meter dash times from years ago still similar to what they are today? Because the human body has its limits.

How do you judge a S/C coach? Are your kids able to go toe to toe for four quarters all season long or are they losing games in the fourth quarter? We won a lot of games in the fourth quarter last year. We beat Stanford at the goal line, we held USC at the goal line, we ran the ball down Pitts throats at the goal line (yes he did fumble). Are they maintaining their weight? Is the team being plagued by injuries? These examples are how you judge a S/C coach. From my viewpoint Longo gets a passing grade.

 

[Cackalacky]

But can you tell me how a S/C coach's success is measured? And how to know when it's time to try something new? Is it simply avoiding injuries?

OK. A S/C coach is tasked with improving specific deficiencies for a specific athlete or increasing desirable traits. Longo is responsible for seeing that each of the players ND fields is doing what he thinks they need to do in order to meet the desires of the coaches. For example:

Chris Brown is a wiry speedster. Longo is tasked with adding bulk while not decreasing Chris's speed. He develops a plan to increase bulk on him while still optimizing his natural abilities. He can prescribe tasks or regimens to increase agility, power, and flexibility etc. But you can't do too many things to increase top end/long distance speed (I am sure exploding out of a stopped position can shave a few seconds, and agility in tight spaces can make players appear more fluid or faster but that does not make the person faster). However by adding too much bulk would definitely slow him down. So there is a balance there in optimizing Chris' specific abilities, endurance, and durability.

Longo has to balance these things for each player who has different needs and skill sets. From watching "Strong and True" every player has a card that he has to review so he can tailor the days activities for each player and monitor what they are doing. I understand it is an old school way of doing it but it is reportedly very effective.

He also works hand in hand with the trainer who handles the injuries and is instrumental in getting injured players back on the field.

It would be very easy for BK to look at a players card and tell who is and who is not grinding.

 

[koonja]

You're not trying to learn. If you were, you would be more open minded towards the insight given by others.

If at the end of the year the OL and DL are getting pushed around, people would start to wonder what's going on. If you looked at the starting weight versus weight at the end of the season and found a loss of 10 pounds or so per player, you would start to question why that happened. The first two people that would be questioned are the s/c coach and the dietician. Over a period of time if players aren't making gains and are retracting in their overall strength, power, speed, agility, etc...the s/c coach will be questioned. As of right now, that hasn't been the case with Longo, therefore your self doubt in regards to Longo as a S/C coach is not justified. (I already know you'll pull the speed and agility comments out and try to use them against me. To that I say, name specific examples of a player retracting in his speed and agility and prove that it has everything to do with lack of training and not any other outside factor such as scheme, decision making ability, reaction time, etc).

I want to address your ST comments too. One comment BK made about the NC game was that Bama plays starters on ST and that was something he'd like to look into. There are some starters that currently play on ST. The others are usually in the two-deep and are very athletic (Max Redfield comes to mind). Personally, I think some of the reason more starters don't play on ST is because of depth issues and injury concern. That has nothing to do with Longo. Depth is something that's addressed during recruiting.

I hope that answers your question.

That's not true. Just because you/others have said 'stars don't mean athleticism', 'we inherently take poor angles' and 'we're better than with Weis' does not mean I have to agree or that it's true.

The goal for a S/C should not be 'well don't come from High School and get slower/less athletic'. Because they simply don't get slower does not mean S/C is maximizing the kid's talent.

That's a good point.

 

[koonja]

OK. A S/C coach is tasked with improving specific deficiencies for a specific athlete or increasing desirable traits. Longo is responsible for seeing that each of the players ND fields is doing what he thinks they need to do in order to meet the desires of the coaches. For example:

Chris Brown is a wiry speedster. Longo is tasked with adding bulk while not decreasing Chris's speed. He develops a plan to increase bulk on him while still optimizing his natural abilities. He can prescribe tasks or regimens to increase agility, power, flexibility but you can't do too many things to increase top end/ long distance speed very much (I am sure exploding out of a stopped position can shave a few seconds, and agility in tight spaces can make players appear more fluid or faster but that doe snot make the person faster). However by adding too much bulk would definitely slow him down. So there is a balance there in optimizing Chris' specific abilities, endurance, and durability.

Longo has to balance these things for each player who has different needs and skill sets. From watching "Strong and True" every player has a card that he has to review so he can tailor the days activities for each player and monitor what they are doing. I understand it is an old school way of doing it but it is reportedly very effective.

He also works hand in hand with the trainer who handles the injuries and is instrumental in getting injured players back on the field.

It would be very easy for BK to look at a players card and tell who is and who is not grinding.

Reps and very good post. Our 'weight/size' is not the issue. You could match up our weight/size against any team in the country and without the name being on the roster, you could not find a difference.

I would argue that we're over 'bulking' at certain positions, but that's just me. Doesn't BK want a heavy defense?

 

[koonja]

How many players do you think we played on D against Purdue in the 1st quarter?

I have no idea. How many?

 

[Ironman8]

I have no idea. How many?

At least 19, according to Dan Murphy at BGI.

 

[Cackalacky]

Reps and very good post. Our 'weight/size' is not the issue. You could match up our weight/size against any team in the country and without the name being on the roster, you could not find a difference.

I would argue that we're over 'bulking' at certain positions, but that's just me. Doesn't BK want a heavy defense?

If that is what BK wants and Longo has achieved it... job well done for Longo. Now if that translates to slower players on the field then who is to blame? Longo just did his job. He did what BK told him to do.

It may in fact be that Bk does not want Day and Tuitt to be sack monsters but just to eat up space. IDK. In the end Longo is not doing anything that he has not been directed to do by at least someone on the coaching staff.

Conversely Tuitt had a hernia problem and could not do a lot of stuff he needed to, or that the staff wanted him to, hence why he wound up at 320 lbs. Longo's problem with this is evaluating Tuitt and determining if he can get Tuitt to where the coaches want him. If they want him at 305 and Tuitt can't or won't then the coaches know about it from Longo's card.

BK can look at a players card and see how they are performing and what their weaknesses and strengths are.

Are there newer methods for tracking metrics... sure. Are there newer methods for increasing power, agility, and flexibility... probably. IDK about that.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Bump. In case you missed it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehnja View Post
There's some evidence that Longo cannot be the problem. Not being sarcastic.

I'd still point to the fact that the kids you are referring to were comparing Longo to Weis's S/C, which is a terrible measuring stick, and there's no way they can compare to Bama/AM/Clemson, etc, but still.


Reuben Mendoza was the S/C coach at Ole Miss, Clemson, Tennessee, and South Carolina. Pretty sure you'd never question the speed of those teams at any time in the past.


Comparing to CW's s/c coach is relevant because he came from SEC/ACC land. You know the place you keep talking about that ND can't hang with anymore athletically or depth-wise. How did those teams end up with him as the s/c coach?

Longo, like mentioned by Cack and Irish#1, is doing a great job. He's doing what the coaches are instructing him to do. And that's get players at their ideal weight, keep them there, getting injured players back on the field, etc.

 

[koonja]

Bump. In case you missed it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehnja View Post
There's some evidence that Longo cannot be the problem. Not being sarcastic.

I'd still point to the fact that the kids you are referring to were comparing Longo to Weis's S/C, which is a terrible measuring stick, and there's no way they can compare to Bama/AM/Clemson, etc, but still.


Reuben Mendoza was the S/C coach at Ole Miss, Clemson, Tennessee, and South Carolina. Pretty sure you'd never question the speed of those teams at any time in the past.


Comparing to CW's s/c coach is relevant because he came from SEC/ACC land. You know the place you keep talking about that ND can't hang with anymore athletically or depth-wise. How did those teams end up with him as the s/c coach?

Longo, like mentioned by Cack and Irish#1, is doing a great job. He's doing what the coaches are instructing him to do. And that's get players at their ideal weight, keep them there, getting injured players back on the field, etc.

During Mendoza's time at Ole Miss:
8-4
7-6
10-3
4-7
Winning percentage = .72

During Mendoza's time at Clemson:
9-3
6-6
3-8
7-5
Winning percentage = .52

And at South Carolina he was not in the role of S/C. He was a grad assistant. Could not find info on Tennessee, but the above is hardly impressive and let's not act like Ole Miss/Clemson today is the Ole Miss/Clemson of the late 90's/early 2000's. They're much improved now.

Edit: Actually, Ole Miss has been pretty awful the past couple of years, but they finally look legit this year. $.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I'm just pointing out that ND had a s/c coach from SEC/ACC land and it didn't help. Harrison Smith, for example, was praising Longo over a s/c coach that had previously spent the majority of his career in the south....a place where they're loaded year after year with athleticism. Do you think Mendoza was the reason for that? Or do you think those schools just happened to recruit better athletes?

 

[koonja]

I'm just pointing out that ND had a s/c coach from SEC/ACC land and it didn't help. Harrison Smith, for example, was praising Longo over a s/c coach that had previously spent the majority of his career in the south....a place where they're loaded year after year with athleticism. Do you think Mendoza was the reason for that? Or do you think those schools just happened to recruit better athletes?

That's a good point. Maybe it has to do more with the type of recruit than the S/C coach, than I thought, just saying that those teams you mentioned were not successful during those years.

 

[Cackalacky]

During Mendoza's time at Ole Miss:
8-4
7-6
10-3
4-7
Winning percentage = .72

During Mendoza's time at Clemson:
9-3
6-6
3-8
7-5
Winning percentage = .52

And at South Carolina he was not in the role of S/C. He was a grad assistant. Could not find info on Tennessee, but the above is hardly impressive and let's not act like Ole Miss/Clemson today is the Ole Miss/Clemson of the late 90's/early 2000's. They're much improved now.

Edit: Actually, Ole Miss has been pretty awful the past couple of years, but they finally look legit this year. $.

Wayne State University - Mendoza selected as Strength and Conditioning Coach

While with the Irish, Mendoza oversaw a full-time staff of eight that coordinated training for all 26 UND sports. At Ole Miss, he spent four years overseeing a Rebel strength staff that featured four full-time assistants and three graduate assistants dealing with 500 student-athletes and 18 varsity sports.

Mendoza was assistant director of strength, speed and conditioning for four years at Clemson University before taking over at Ole Miss in January 2001. His football responsibilities at Clemson included implementation of in-season strength and conditioning programs, serving as assistant coordinator of winter conditioning as well as a speed development program, testing and monitoring all progress in strength, flexibility and cardiovascular fitness, and educating student-athletes on nutritional factors, including supplementation that affects health and performance.

General responsibilities at Clemson dealt with supervising the development of strength and aerobic fitness for 19 varsity sports through the use of sports-specific training programs. Mendoza managed the 14,000-square foot facility and day-to-day operations, worked closely with the Clemson head trainer in coordinating rehabilitation programs for injured athletes, and provided supervision and developed time schedules for varsity sports for use of athletic weight facilities.

Prior to joining the Clemson staff in June 1997, Mendoza served as head strength and conditioning coordinator at the University of Tennessee-Chattanooga from January 1993 to April 1997. He was the defensive line coach/assistant strength and conditioning coach at Presbyterian College in Clinton, S.C., during the 1992 season and served as graduate assistant strength and conditioning coach at South Carolina from June 1990 to February 1992.

On a side note Longo's alma mater is Wayne State, where Mendoza is now.

Through three years at Notre Dame, Longo and Kelly have helped the Irish secure a 23-3 record when leading after three quarters and are 23-3 when entering halftime with a lead. In the two seasons prior to Kelly's and Longo's arrival, Notre Dame was only 9-6 in games it led at halftime.

Longo just completed his third season at the University of Cincinnati and has worked alongside Kelly as his speed, strength and conditioning coach since Kelly's first season at Central Michigan in 2004. Longo will work with the Notre Dame football team and will oversee two assistant directors of strength and conditioning (Jacob Flint and Lorenzo Guess).

Longo instilled a grueling strength and conditioning program at Cincinnati that helped the Bearcats become one of the top closing teams in the nation. Under Kelly's watch at Cincinnati, the Bearcats were 32-0 when entering a fourth quarter with a lead and 29-2 when leading at halftime. Since 2005 at Central Michigan, Kelly's teams are 42-1 when leading after three quarters and 39-2 when taking the lead into halftime.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

That's a good point. Maybe it has to do more with the type of recruit than the S/C coach, than I thought, just saying that those teams you mentioned were not successful during those years.

It has almost everything to do with the recruit, which is what people have been trying to tell you.

Those teams not being successful could've been because a number of reasons beyond Mendoza. That really has no relevance in the thread unless you can prove that the losses were directly related to him and the s/c of the team.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Cackalacky, Great find! +1

 

[Cackalacky]

Can we end this now?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Can we end this now?

haha

 

[NDinFL]

Can we end this now?

It should have never been started....

 

[koonja]

It has almost everything to do with the recruit, which is what people have been trying to tell you.

Those teams not being successful could've been because a number of reasons beyond Mendoza. That really has no relevance in the thread unless you can prove that the losses were directly related to him and the s/c of the team.

Can we end this now?

Thanks for the discussion. I'll keep to myself about Longo.

It's still too simple of an excuse to say 'well it's the athletes coming in, not the S/C program', not just for Longo/ND, but S/C coaches everywhere. With that theory, it'd be hard to ever say a S/C coach is not maximizing the talent, unless players are just dropping on the field like flies.

But like I said, I don't know enough about reviewing a S/C coach, and it seems like it's not exactly black and white or can be objectively measured.

 

[Cackalacky]

haha