Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
If you think companies have not devised and executed strategies to reduce/eliminate full time employees in lieu of part time temporary with lesser pay and no benefits you're crazy or so misinformed it's embarrassing.

In this case, because Obamacare increases the cost of hiring/having full-time workers.

Businesses must play by the rules of the arena, which are made by politicians (and sometimes by the lobbyists or other businesses, sadly).

Ohio State doesn't let most of its staff work full-time because then they'd have to pay for X, Y, and Z. It's one tiny example of state regs screwing the lower-middle class.
 
Last edited:

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
If you think companies have not devised and executed strategies to reduce/eliminate full time employees in lieu of part time temporary with lesser pay and no benefits you're crazy or so misinformed it's embarrassing.

The fastest growing company in our area is a temp agency and there's a reason for that. It's what companies are looking for.

As far as commission based positions, it effectiveness, not efficiency.

If you think higher minimum wages and requiring benefits are not a root cause to this strategy you are equally crazy. There is a marginal cost advantage in the low wage arena to part time workers versus full time workers. Obamacare takes it to a new level.

Now let's get back to disagreeing!
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Inthis case, because Obamacare increases the cost of full-time workers.

Businesses must play by the rules of the arena, which are made by politicians (and sometimes by the lobbyists or other businesses, sadly).

Ohio State doesn't let most of its staff work full-time because then they'd have to pay for X, Y, and Z. It's one tiny example of state regs screwing the lower-middle class.

LOL. Holy ****. I left this thread a while back for a reason. I forgot about it but now I know why. You got the benefit of the doubt because you lack historical perspective.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4MArzSSF7WU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3p1sW9aIQ-Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-pCfJOj8QSo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...because apparently no one wanted to watch it last time. :)

Hopefully someone will do better than "yeah listen we've all had brilliant professors before yadda yadda yadda."
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
If you go into a c0mission based employment arrangement you clearly know its a risk reward situation. once again an employer makes the call on whether to hire you at salary, commission, minimum wage etc...

But your Henry Ford "efficiency" theory doesn't apply because once a salesman is already incentivized to sell, raising his commission won't create a concommitant increase in effort. Diminishing margins.

If you're saying that employers set the commission rate you're right, but I don't think that's any different from the "business models of yore". Who's supposed to set the commission rate?
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
LOL. Holy ****. I left this thread a while back for a reason. I forgot about it but now I know why. You got the benefit of the doubt because you lack historical perspective.

Care to elaborate?

I think I'm the only one actually bringing up historical perspectives, actually.
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
Care to elaborate?

I think I'm the only one actually bringing up historical perspectives, actually.

You can't understand how awesome it was to work in the Ford plant in 1911, how everyone got $5 a day, and how after two years everyone could ride in their own Model-T.

Ah, the business models of yore...
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
But your Henry Ford "efficiency" theory doesn't apply because once a salesman is already incentivized to sell, raising his commission won't create a concommitant increase in effort. Diminishing margins.

If you're saying that employers set the commission rate you're right, but I don't think that's any different from the "business models of yore". Who's supposed to set the commission rate?

No? A higher comission rate would disincentivize? hmmm.

The employer sets the commission rate. You either accept it or not. If you dont sell you dont make money, they dont sell product. How long do you last either way?
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
F-ing cotton gin. Put all those slaves out of work.

Actually I think it was quite the opposite, if I remember correctly. The cotton gin crushed the price equilibrium of producing cotton so much that it actually created the market of cotton clothes. Demand spiked, and it made the production that a slave could do much, much higher and they became exponentially more valuable.
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
Actually I think it was quite the opposite, if I remember correctly. The cotton gin crushed the price equilibrium of producing cotton so much that it actually created the market of cotton clothes. Demand spiked, and it made the production that a slave could do much, much higher and they became exponentially more valuable.

I think that's right -- slavery was on its way out until the gin. Sharecropping was much cheaper, since you didn't have to supply all the basic necessities of life. Then cotton seed processing increased 10 fold, making slaves more productive.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
That's free-market capitalism. Nothing more, nothing less. Ford was not unique.



So false. This broad-brush description is absurdly ignorant. Plenty of businesses increase salaries and add employees.

But, as a crucial aspect of capitalism, the efficiency of capital-intensive machinery/technology replaces workers. Email replaces the need for more postal workers, ATMs replace the need for more bank tellers, etc etc. That is Karl Marx's point. You are worth less as a result of technological advances. But the decrease in costs crushes price equilibria simultaneously.

American worker efficiency dwarfs that of the rest of the world. That's why skilled manufacturing has been more resistant to globalization. Do not claim that employees are less efficient, that is simply wrong.



I think the army of business professionals knows a little bit more about what will and what will not have a positive or negative effect on their operation. And even when they're wrong, they adjust with astounding quickness.

For someone who wasn't even alive when many of us began living in the real world, you sure are an opinionated little turd. To make things worse, your outright rude responses during a civil conversation speak volumes about your maturity. Perhaps you should consider for a moment that someone who is a college student, who hasn't even cut his teeth on navigating life, who hasn't lived a day in his life without someone being there to take care of him, might not have all the answers to all the complex problems that this country faces. Maybe, just maybe, you could benefit from considering the opinions and observations of others. For goodness sake, how did the world survive all these years before Buster graduated high school and became the all-knowing font of all things economic?
 
Last edited:
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
For someone who wasn't even alive when many of us began living in the real world, you sure are an opinionated little turd. To make things worse, your outright rude responses during a civil conversation speak volumes about your maturity. Perhaps you should consider for a moment that someone who is a college student, who hasn't even cut his teeth on navigating life, who hasn't lived a day in his life without someone being there to take care of him, might not have all the answers to all the complex problems that this country faces. Maybe, just maybe, you could benefit from considering the opinions and observations of others. For goodness sake, how did the world survive all these years before Buster graduated high school and became the all-knowing font of all things economic.

Ah back to the "you're too young to understand bullsht."

Tell me, what am I missing? That I should agree with all of the childish generalizations on here?! That I should take the word of people who don't have the ability to second-guess their stances? I have openly argued in favor of left and right positions on here, and the only response you people give are "you're too young to get it, little grasshopper." I'm sorry your old age has destroyed your ability to articulate your position?

Bring a better response next time, grandpa.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
Ah back to the "you're too young to understand bullsht."

Tell me, what am I missing? That I should agree with all of the childish generalizations on here?! That I should take the word of people who don't have the ability to second-guess their stances? I have openly argued in favor of left and right positions on here, and the only response you people give are "you're too young to get it, little grasshopper." I'm sorry your old age has destroyed your ability to articulate your position?

Bring a better response next time, grandpa.

Funny part about the grandpa line is that in this entire thread he's sounded like a 6 year old and everyone recognizes it.
 

tadman95

I have a bigger bullet
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
248
He was unique to the field. Not to the philosophy of what he was doing. Take a step back, it's no different than what any capitalist has done. From all the way back to Eli Whitney's cotton gin crushing the price equilibrium of cotton and absolutely blowing up the market because it became affordable. Clothes used to actually cost something. Now it costs almost nothing to make a cotton shirt.



That what isn't true? Businesses have always used the least amount of people and manhours to accomplish a goal. That's not unique to today. You all are acting like the businessmen of yesteryear had the middle class at heart and now the Gordon Geckos are running around stealing the cash. It's not different, technology is replacing workers--or in this case, government regulation is squashing hiring. But by and large people are paid what they are worth and that is determined by the market, for better or for worse.

A criticism of massive multi-national corporations shutting down operations and moving them overseas is so-so for me. On one hand, if we believe in free-trade and abolish trade restrictions and now foreign companies are selling a similar product here that is cheaper--you must move, or you fail. That is fact and unchangeable; we should at least recognize that usual lower prices that come along with it. On a side note, I find it hypocritical for the political party that promotes an end to global poverty and suffering and whats to promote economic growth in the third world, is also the first one to bitch and moan when an operation leaves the states for it.

Still, if your criticism is of workers being replaces by foreigners/machines, then you should have joined the bandwagon that supports small businesses. Small businesses cannot replace replace workers with heavy machinery so easily, and they don't build foreign factories, but they do hire American and produce in America for Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cackalacky
Today's business models are to cut salaries, cut employees and benefits thereby making profits increase but as a byproduct producing less effective and efficient employees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Bluth
So false. This broad-brush description is absurdly ignorant. Plenty of businesses increase salaries and add employees.


More business are cutting employees or we wouldn't heave 8% unemployment. As far less effective and efficient employees, of course it affects them.

Concerning manager of yesteryear, LOL maybe but I'm not that old. The free trade agreements, while inevitable, were probably the biggest single factor in the decline of the middle class. Moving that work overseas was much better for the corporations and the lower cost of goods here didn't make up the difference. When NAFTA was being considered we heard a lot of opening new markets for our goods. Great for all of us. Yea, people making $.050/hr are going to buy a lot from us for sure.

As far as small business, I don't see a lot of small business that pay that well, certainly not as well as the larger companies.

As far as the trend toward temporary and part time employees, this started 25+years ago and has nothing to do with Obama care.
 

RallySonsOfND

All-Snub Team Snubbed
Messages
2,106
Reaction score
91
For someone who wasn't even alive when many of us began living in the real world, you sure are an opinionated little turd. To make things worse, your outright rude responses during a civil conversation speak volumes about your maturity. Perhaps you should consider for a moment that someone who is a college student, who hasn't even cut his teeth on navigating life, who hasn't lived a day in his life without someone being there to take care of him, might not have all the answers to all the complex problems that this country faces. Maybe, just maybe, you could benefit from considering the opinions and observations of others. For goodness sake, how did the world survive all these years before Buster graduated high school and became the all-knowing font of all things economic?

Do you hear how ridiculous you sound? To pretty much say that no one younger than you can know more than you is absurd. Quit with the personal attacks.

You could also benefit from the opinions and observations of other, that is a two way street.
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
Ah back to the "you're too young to understand bullsht."

Tell me, what am I missing? That I should agree with all of the childish generalizations on here?! That I should take the word of people who don't have the ability to second-guess their stances? I have openly argued in favor of left and right positions on here, and the only response you people give are "you're too young to get it, little grasshopper." I'm sorry your old age has destroyed your ability to articulate your position?

Bring a better response next time, grandpa.

Note to self: never reveal age when having opinions.

You should have told them you were 80 years old -- they'd all be Republicans by now!
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
For someone who wasn't even alive when many of us began living in the real world, you sure are an opinionated little turd. To make things worse, your outright rude responses during a civil conversation speak volumes about your maturity. Perhaps you should consider for a moment that someone who is a college student, who hasn't even cut his teeth on navigating life, who hasn't lived a day in his life without someone being there to take care of him, might not have all the answers to all the complex problems that this country faces. Maybe, just maybe, you could benefit from considering the opinions and observations of others. For goodness sake, how did the world survive all these years before Buster graduated high school and became the all-knowing font of all things economic?

Obama is 51, Mitt Romney is 65 - ergo, GoIrish is endorsing Romney for his vastly superior age. No one other than Cackalacky is allowed to question this since they are younger. Cack obviously had a brokeback mountain incident with Henry Ford, thus my assumption that he is 100 years old.

I will now rep myself for providing the only fact in the last fifty posts or so.
 
Last edited:
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
More business are cutting employees or we wouldn't heave 8% unemployment. As far less effective and efficient employees, of course it affects them.

Every recession that America has experienced has forced businesses to shed their workforce and become more efficient.

As far as small business, I don't see a lot of small business that pay that well, certainly not as well as the larger companies.

Plenty do. Economics of scale though means that larger companies will be more efficient and can pay more though, obviously. It depends on the marketplace. Also small businesses doesn't necessarily mean mom & pop stores who only need side help.

As far as the trend toward temporary and part time employees, this started 25+years ago and has nothing to do with Obama care.

I am speaking about today. And yes Obamacare has and will only exacerbation the situation. Obamacare goes into effect for operations of 50 or more full time workers. Companies near that figure now have a huge incentive to stay or get under 50. They will compensate with an increase in part-time workers. Like my situation at Ohio State, this is only screwing some of the working class.
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
Obama is 51, Mitt Romney is 65 - ego, GoIrish is endorsing Romney for his vastly superior age. No one other than Cackalacky is allowed to question this since they are younger. Cack obviously had a brokeback mountain incident with Henry Ford, thus my assumption that he is 100 years old.

I will now rep myself for providing the only fact in the last fifty posts or so.

Back then it was called the Model-T Bone.
 

tadman95

I have a bigger bullet
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
248
Note to self: never reveal age when having opinions.

You should have told them you were 80 years old -- they'd all be Republicans by now!

LOl. I'm not 80 but I can tell you I was way more republican at 20 than now. In fact I'm pretty centrist since neither party suits me that well. I got there by actually living thru the last 50 years and seeing the real world of talk versus reality.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Ah back to the "you're too young to understand bullsht."

Tell me, what am I missing? That I should agree with all of the childish generalizations on here?! That I should take the word of people who don't have the ability to second-guess their stances? I have openly argued in favor of left and right positions on here, and the only response you people give are "you're too young to get it, little grasshopper." I'm sorry your old age has destroyed your ability to articulate your position?

Bring a better response next time, grandpa.

Nice Buster. What you are missing is perspective, and discipline. When you can't win an argument, you resort to name calling and rude statements. "You are too young" is not the only response I have made on here. I have clearly articulated what I believe throughout this thread. You don't have to agree with me. We obviously have a different world view. But it is simply not civil to lash out at people the way you do -- especially people who are more educated, more experienced, and more open minded than you.

If you were my age and spoke to people like that, I'd just dismiss you as a jacka**. But, in your case, I won't do that because you are just a stupid teenager who doesn't know sh*t that he didn't read in a book or learn from watching some professor speak about his thesis on economics.

I began this discussion about part-time vs. full-time with the recommendation of taking businesses off the hook on healthcare and advocating for a single-payer system because in my view that would allow businesses to invest the money they use to pay that benefit to employees into hiring more. Where does that leave us? With a fully insured population ready to fill all of the jobs that would be created (according to right wing theory). Of course, that is not a palletable solution to the right. Why? You got me. I'm sure they would argue that it would represent a "tax increase" that would slow economic growth, but pure common sense would seem to refute that logic. Most unemployed folks, it seems to me, would rather pay a little more in taxes for the ability to work and pay any taxes at all. It seems to me that if "job creators" are going to create jobs if we ease their burden, removing the responsibility for their employee healthcare costs would do just that. I'm certain that you find this to be a childish generalization (you are the expert, being a child yourself) but I'd like to hear your unnecissarily rude comment anyway.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
LOl. I'm not 80 but I can tell you I was way more republican at 20 than now. In fact I'm pretty centrist since neither party suits me that well. I got there by actually living thru the last 50 years and seeing the real world of talk versus reality.

You see Buster, this is called experience. That, my young friend is what you lack.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Do you hear how ridiculous you sound? To pretty much say that no one younger than you can know more than you is absurd. Quit with the personal attacks.

You could also benefit from the opinions and observations of other, that is a two way street.

The point isn't really that he is young (hey, didn't we have this conversation earlier in this thread?), it is that he is insulting and aggressive when talking to people who have more experience. It's not a personal attack at all, simply an observation that anyone else on this board could have and likely has made. I've spent the past 40 years developing my own beliefs and world view based on a lot of personal experience -- experience that neither you nor Buster could not possibly have. That fact that you think that sounds ridiculous is evidence that are you lack understanding.

I knew everything when I was young, too, except that I found out I was full of sh*t when I grew up. Grow up and learn to have a civil conversation.
 
Last edited:

tadman95

I have a bigger bullet
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
248
The point isn't really that he is young (hey, didn't we have this conversation earlier in this thread?), it is that he is insulting and aggressive when talking to people who have more experience. It's not a personal attack at all, simply an observation that anyone else on this board could have and likely has made. I've spent the past 40 years developing my own beliefs and world view based on a lot of personal experience -- experience that neither you or Buster could not possibly have. That fact that you think that sounds ridiculous is evidence that are you lack understanding.

I knew everything when I was young, too, except that I found out I was full of sh*t when I grew up. Grow up and learn to have a civil conversation.

I found that out too. I remember big debates with my dad. Amazing how much smarter he got as I got older.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Obama is 51, Mitt Romney is 65 - ego, GoIrish is endorsing Romney for his vastly superior age. No one other than Cackalacky is allowed to question this since they are younger. Cack obviously had a brokeback mountain incident with Henry Ford, thus my assumption that he is 100 years old.

I will now rep myself for providing the only fact in the last fifty posts or so.

That observation is every bit as funny as when you made it in post 2250. You are a riot!!!
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
The point isn't really that he is young (hey, didn't we have this conversation earlier in this thread?), it is that he is insulting and aggressive when talking to people who have more experience. It's not a personal attack at all, simply an observation that anyone else on this board could have and likely has made. I've spent the past 40 years developing my own beliefs and world view based on a lot of personal experience -- experience that neither you or Buster could not possibly have. That fact that you think that sounds ridiculous is evidence that are you lack understanding.

I knew everything when I was young, too, except that I found out I was full of sh*t when I grew up. Grow up and learn to have a civil conversation.

You still have a lot to learn and you're still full of $hit. If you were as old and wise as you claim to be, you wouldn't sound like a 6 year old who wasn't invited to the birthday party. Every time someone tears apart your lackluster argument or proves you wrong, you dismiss them because they're younger than you.

Everyone has the right to their opinions, and I opine that you bring down the level of intellect in this entire thread not only in content but delivery.

I'm Polish Leppy and I approve this message.
 
Top