"The God Particle" Input needed.

Domina Nostra

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Having just had my third child last week, I have a hard time not believing in God. The fact particals over time have interacted to produce not just our species but all those around us is just too incredible to credit to chance, IMHO.

People who don't understand this are really missing some one of the most profund truths about human life. It is easier to see in the growth of a child than anywhere else.

On topic, I love this kind of physics but I do tend to think that these scientists outsmart themselves. Sometimes you just have to admit that either your brain or the technology does not know how to make the next leap. The theory that positis these god-particles also posits that 85% of the mass in the universe is unaccounted for, which leads some of these guys to posit infinite universes, etc. ("I never said it was unaccounted for, I said it was DARK MATTER (followed by sinister laugh)." "What is dark matter?" "I don't know, no one has ever seen it, but it has to exist or my theory would be wrong." "Gotcha.")

When you get to the fine print and discover that the scientists haven't really found anything at all, you should yawn, smile, and remember that even geniuses need grants.
 
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Cackalacky

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They may be opposites by definition but some explanations can still mesh well. Take intelligent design and evolution, God could have put us here but we could still have evolved. Why can't he have made carbon react the way it does in order to form stable life and ultimately us? There are definite laws of the universe, who/what made these laws?
Thats jus it, science neither requires nor allows for this to even be included. Science cannot prove or disporove that which is outside of nature. Intelligent design is crap, not science and is just rebranded creationism. No scientist takes it seriously because it violates the scientific method at its most base. Also it has been dismissed in every court case it was involved in.

Religion and science can coexist without dismissing one another completely. You still can't prove religion, but you can still have faith. That's why Einstein and other prominent figures believe(d) in God. To know science is to know God. Hell, one of my philosophy professors at ND was a nuclear physicist before she became a professor.
Yes a person can believe in science and religion but the simple fact is if that is the case then it is the person who is conscientiously choosing to make the science fit their preconcieved notions (dogma). Such as you saying to know science is to know god. That is is not allowable by the scientific method. You have interjected the presecence of a deity into the equation. For example if one were to believe Noah's Ark, it would have had to rained 350 inches per hour for 40 24-hour periods to cover all the earth to the tallest mountain ( Mt. Everest 29,000 feet deep). If you believe this then you are forcing your own preconcieved ideas on the idea. If you believe the earth is only 6000 years old, scientific ata clearly shows otherwise.The scientific method does not allow for proving god, but it can prove or disprove claims made by religous texts and its adherents[/QUOTE]

The one thing I just don't understand is how people can read the Old Testament literally, especially Genesis. That's all I'll say about that, don't want to start anything. I do think the Bible has had a very positive influence on the world (save Religious wars, the Inquisition, etc).
you should check out nonstampcollector on youtube....
 
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Cackalacky

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On topic, I love this kind of physics but I do tend to think that these scientists outsmart themselves. Sometimes you just have to admit that either your brain or the technology does not know how to make the next leap. The theory that positis these god-particles also posits that 85% of the mass in the universe is unaccounted for, which leads some of these guys to posit infinite universes, etc. ("I never said it was unaccounted for, I said it was DARK MATTER (followed by sinister laugh)." "What is dark matter?" "I don't know, no one has ever seen it, but it has to exist or my theory would be wrong." "Gotcha.")

When you get to the fine print and discover that the scientists haven't really found anything at all, you should yawn, smile, and remember that even geniuses need grants.

Exactly. Known matter accounts for about 5% of the universe, the rest is thought to be dark matter (25%) and dark energy (70%). This machine will help in the understanding of such questions. And we must support it not hinder it.
 
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Evolution only kills your faith if you let it. I'm not religious, but evolution doesn't disprove there being a God or higher power. Science answers how and religion can answer why.
 

Old Man Mike

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Since I was a science prof who taught many branches of the sciences at a public university, I'd like to say one [in my view important] thing about "knowing". When I taught my kids about "the scientific method", I taught them that it is just one way of "knowing". I then pointed out to the young scientific idealists that there probably never has been a scientist who has strictly used it. All of scientific research begins with vast numbers of intuitions in an individual's mind, which constrict the unthinkable number of possible things to discover down to a hopeful one or two. This process is neither strictly "logical" nor "rational". The only reason it is successful is that after all the wild-in-the-woods irrationality of the research path beginnings, the "finder" is supposed to [with great humility] present the findings to the world for critique. The only way such critique is possible is if someone other than yourself can "run the same experiment" and get the same results. Therefore, the subject matter of this method restricts itself to something anyone might be able to do and "see" in a controlled repetition.

Much of our current science doesn't, at least in practicality, meet this requirement. You or I cannot commandeer the Large Hadron Collider. You or I can't get our hands on the Dead Sea Scrolls either. Etc etc ad infinitum. We live in a world wherein we largely trust almost everything to faith of one kind or another. No one should underrate this. It is why small cadres of very subject-limited "experts" can get thinking AND HOPING too hard in a narrow direction which no "outside authority" can really check, and pronounce something "true" which turns out to be quite stupid years later. "Truth" in science tends, thereby, to be a moving target. Einstein "refines" Newton. Someone will "refine" Einstein for speeds extremely close to the speed of Light, as almost everyone is VERY uncomfortable with the "infinities" which show up as the curve closes out. New Physics will someday arise.

Now a last very controversial thing: the statement was made about belief in God being an example of an inferior way of knowing since it could not be knowing at all, but "just" faith. In my opinion, it is possible for me to "know" God just fine. If I have "worked at it", through many meditations with Nature [The Creation] I often feel the Presence of God directly there. In fact, that Presence is far more palpable than Higgs Bosons. I often will sit in my front yard chair and hold a large stone, simply hefting it. Do I feel the effects of the Higgs? Yes. But what I really feel is the sustaining Power of the Creator's Will constantly through his Universal Laws, holding together the underpinnings of the Universe. In this preposterous mere belief, I am in good company. This is EXACTLY what Isaac Newton felt, and why it was a deep spiritual experience for him to have discovered the "Law of Gravity" --- to him one of the Great Words of Creation spoken by God "at The Beginning."

Newton's measurements and calculations were his science. The powerful tangible feeling that he got from them was his spiritual knowledge. He knew the difference. One belongs in the restricted classroom that we call "science". The other in a far more important classroom that we call Life. I never "taught" Newton's spirituality in science classroom, but I would answer questions [making the proper distinctions for the students]. "Kansas" is wrong. Only the part which is science should be in the science classroom. Newton's spirituality, Johnny von Neumann's personal "proof" of the Great Primary Observer, and Intelligent Design theories are intellectually important, but in the wrong classroom.

There are more than one ways of knowing.
 

phork

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I am just saying, DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU.
 

Irish YJ

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higgs-boson.jpg
 

BobD

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Thanks for all of the great contributions to this conversation guys. We have some very smart members here at IE and I'm learniing a lot. All of this is way beyond me. I dont know why I find it so freaking interesting.

Are there any serious dangers in the experiments being done?
 
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NDOM

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I would have to smoke some major pot to start talking about this topic. But of course it would be after I ate a whole bag of funions, munchos, a large pizza, pop tarts, ice cream, and some Guinness....... but unfortunately for the time being I'm all outta pot. DAAAAAMIT!

Also, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. I have a VERY HARD time believing that there has always been a "GOD" and he made everything. If that is the case then who made him? The bible to me is one gigantic comic book but that's just my opinion.
 
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Domina Nostra

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I would have to smoke some major pot to start talking about this topic. But of course it would be after I ate a whole bag of funions, munchos, a large pizza, pop tarts, ice cream, and some Guinness....... but unfortunately for the time being I'm all outta pot. DAAAAAMIT!

Also, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. I have a VERY HARD time believing that there has always been a "GOD" and he made everything. If that is the case then who made him? The bible to me is one gigantic comic book but that's just my opinion.

You've probably heard some variation of the story where a famous scientist was giving a public lecture to a crowd of people about the structure of the universe. After the lecture, an old Indian guru came up to the scientist and told him, "None of that is true. The world is set on the the back of an elephant." The scientist, seeing the problem with this theory, asked, "What is the elephant standing on?" The guru, without a moment's hesitation, stated, "a tortise." The scientist, becoming a little impatient, asked the old man, "Well what is the tortise standing on." The guru smiled politely and said, "It's tortises all the way down."

If you believe in science you believe that things exist, and in cause and effect. And then if you observe that that no thing exists necessarily (its possible to imagine the universe without it and it can be destroyed), yet lots of things do exist in a multitude of forms and are changing, you'll eventually come to the same conclusion (if you stick with it) as Aristotle and many of the greatest minds in history: there must be some kind of cause (whether you are talking about being or change) that is QUALITATIVELY different than every other intermediary cause (not just temporally prior) . In other words, there must be something that doesn't require a cause. That first cause, that being which exists by its own nature, is what we call God, and without that first cause all cause and effect become meaningless. It doesn't have to be the God of the Bible--we are talking Aristotle--but it has to exist.

Scientists have become guily of taking the position of the guru, but when called out on it, attempting a slight of hand: "Well, after about a billion tortises, there is nothing. HOwever, this nothing is a something that can create things, which makes sense because you don't understand science." The dishonesty there is that science cannot ever change metaphysical problems (every cause needs an effect, something cannot come from nothing) into a scientific problem, they aren't.
 
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Old Man Mike

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DN: very intellectual commentary probably best delivered in the college classroom, but thank you for the attempt at casting enlightenment. To, with humility, add just a little bit: all cultures of which we have existent philosophical texts [or deeply thought-out meditations in any form] come to the view that "originally" [whether one views this as "in" Time or not], there were/are two fundamental realities. One is the profoundly disorganized Chaos, sometimes referred to as "Nothing", as it of its nature can never manifest as anyTHING. The second is the Orderer. For some this is simply GOD-Creator-Organizer. For others this is a more impersonal Principle which binds Chaos into evolving, dynamic forms. Even then this second "Being" is almost forced to take on some degree of "personality" in its acts and maintenance of things --- thus the chaotic Sea of Brahman is formed by an activating Principle, which personalizes into Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. Judaeo-Christianity presents GOD more concretely and simply, but not utterly unlike.

The point is that no human mind can honestly stay sane in the face of theories demanding "infinite regress". Sooner or later there must be "The Base Upon Which/Who All Stand". So no one except the bail-out minds REALLY believe "Tortoises all the way down" --- that is the wise guru's way of shutting up the non-meditative mind who will never be able to understand any of the profundity until he scraps his purely analytic thought process habit. God and Nature gave us two hemispheres of thinking style for a reason.

And, blurting out crude crap like "The Bible is a comic book" is far beneath the dignity of a cultured discussion about things which are important to people. At a minimum, care about others would modify that sort of behavior. It is VERY easy to spew negatives shallowly. It is far harder to try to actually "build" something. We see this all the time on IE.
 

rikkitikki08

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The big problem with the "standard model" of physics is that there is no way to mesh gravity with quantum phenomena. Gravity does show some characteristics in common with the other forces (e.g. it travels at the speed of light), but to this point no "messenger particle" has been observed.

The Higgs Boson is basically a theory of how gravity works and requires the existence of a certain particle which permeates space. If the LHC were to uncover the existence of the Higgs Boson it would be a huge win for mainstream theoretical physics to make such an accurate prediction. Even if the LHC fails to reveal the Higgs Boson, that would merely eliminate certain ranges of characteristics and some future, more powerful, particle accelerator may be able to probe different energy levels.

From what I understand, if the Higgs Boson does not exist, there are no real coherent alternative theories out there. Quantum gravity (which requires the existence of a different particle - the graviton) once held promise but there is no getting around the fact that it predicts things such as (most famously) proton decay which has never been observed.

On an ND related note, the University has one of the teams crunching data from the LHC and observed an irregularity in the speed at which neutrinos were moving. It is some small suggestion that the speed of light had been breached. However, IMO, that discovery is most likely due to our poor existing data for the mass of neutrinos.

After this post, its pretty obvious you are much smarter than myself
 

Irish Houstonian

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It seems like the complexity of particle physics has unnecessarily aggrandized the "discovery" of the Higgs Boson.

In plain English: it pretty much just confirms what people already think. I mean, "discovery" is cool and all but it's just reinforcing prior held views of the world.

Compare that with, say, the Hubble Telescope, which showed that the expansion of the Universe wasn't uniform and sent Big Bang theory scrambling for new answers.
 

Domina Nostra

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The point is that no human mind can honestly stay sane in the face of theories demanding "infinite regress". Sooner or later there must be "The Base Upon Which/Who All Stand". So no one except the bail-out minds REALLY believe "Tortoises all the way down" --- that is the wise guru's way of shutting up the non-meditative mind who will never be able to understand any of the profundity until he scraps his purely analytic thought process habit. God and Nature gave us two hemispheres of thinking style for a reason.

Great point. I would add that a lot of those "bail-out" minds are often very influential and extraordinarily gifted in their particular fields. So gifted, in fact, that they often assume that they are compotent to discuss matters which are outside their expertise and which they have never fully explored.

There is a background premise in science that everything has a natural cause and that if you just look hard enough you'll find it. This is a great and extremely useful premise. A lot of firmly-held beliefs have been overthrown by scientists who held true to this belief until the naturalistic answer finally became clear. However, this "rule-of-thumb" creates serious confusion in certain circumstances. The great mystery of the human mind/consciousness, for example, is never properly addresseed because scientists demand that there can be nothing but energy and matter. Everything MUST be chemical, therefore, the human mind MUST be fully explainable by brain chemistry alone (In fact, scientists often talk as if this has already been demonstrated). Similarly, the scientific explanation of creation often drifts into absurdity (like multiverses or describing the propoerties of nothing) because scientists refuse to even imagine that anything that is non-material, and non-measurable can exist.

It is one thing to say that science is not concerned with the spiritual since it is necessarily beyond obsrvation and measurement, it is another thing to say that if something cannot be measured, or repeated in a scientific experiement, it does not and cannot exist. How could you prove that premise scientifcally? What instruments would prove that argument true? So while science is not a direct threat to faith, it has bred a kind of irrational materialist idealogy that rejects any other way of knowing, or any other possible mode of being (such as spirit), other than that which can be learned empirically.
 
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