Weis on whether this is "the bottom"

[SoCalDomer]

So what do you guys want? Honestly, what do you want? What would you do better, oh wise ones? What should be done, how could this team be improved? Explain how you would coach if you were coach?

Maybe I'm just dumb, maybe I don't understand football as well as you do, because I don't feel the same way you do. Please help a brother out. Explain in football terms what you are expressing emotionally.

First, you don't have to be a college or professional coach to see that something here isn't working. You also don't have to be a coach in order to be allowed to voice criticism.

If you're not a lawyer I wouldn't attack your right to express opinions on what the law should be, or whether you disagree with what the law currently is. Attacking someone's credentials rather than attacking the argument is an ad hominem (a logical fallacy).

Second, explain to me why you think the future holds hope?
Future incoming talent and more experience? Why is that going to change the fact that our OL can't block, we can't move the line of scrimmage in order to run the ball, our receivers can't catch passes that hit them in the hands, and we can't tackle. These problems didn't just occur during the SC game. This is the 8th game where we exhibit the same exact ineptness. Plus, a team should be able to execute those fundamentals regardless of talent or experience.

But let's take a look at this theory that incoming talent will help, specifically by looking at our worst problem: OL.

In 2008, we have a few offesnive lineman coming in. They won't do anything in 2008 except provide depth. They won't start. Everyone agrees that OL is the hardest jump for high school players because of the speed and technique involved.

Perhaps you argue that the 2008 OL recruits will really help as sophmores in 2009; then we'll really be good. The problem is that 2006's OL aren't proving to be that helpful this year, so there's no assurance that 2008 recruits will be any better in 2009.

The 2006 recruits are CW's and should be "talented". They are sophmores and either aren't good enough to beat out a Jr or Sr, or they did but are part of the OL problem. Our current OL doesn't know how to block, including our sophmores and freshman (who CW recruited). If the OL recruited in 2006 which are playing right now don't already know how to pass block or run block well enough to help get more than a few first downs per game, why do you think they can elevate their game to win next year or in 2009 when they are Sr's? If CW and latina can't teach these guys how to block, why do you think they'll be able to teach the next group of recruits?

Also look at specials teams. Special teams is where most of the young guys get playing time, so they should be loaded with talent from CW's 06 & 07 classes. Our kick-off and punt return blocking is terrible. Kick-offs result in our "fast" returners Tate or Allen running into the back of the first row of blockers or into the grip of the first line of tacklers. There are no holes. These two special teams teams could be considered "offensive" in nature, and the same problems seen on the OL are seen here.

The "defensive" special teams do much better. Our punt coverage and kick-off coverages don't allow alot of yards.

The other problem with the talent argument is that far less talented teams are still able to execute their offense. We are last or close to last in nearly every offensive category. We simply cannot move the ball at all.

So let's turn to the inexperience argument. Other teams have underclassman who can catch passes. Other teams have underclassmen who can tackle. Other teams who have far less talent than us have won games! Is Stanford far more talented and experienced than us? They beet USC. Fluke? Perhaps, but they still executed in order to win that fluke. We aren't even competing on offense.

Perhaps you claim our schedule of tough teams is the problem. That might explain losses, but it doesn't explain the inability to get first downs. Washington State and Stanford both play USC and had much better results.

The last four games will determine whether talent or experience are the problem. We should have more talent than Stanford, Duke, Navy and Airforce. At this point, I question whether we can beat any of these teams.

Be clear about my position. I am not advocating for the firing of Weis. I don't know what the solution is, because I think we have so many problems it's impossible to identify the specifics of what needs to be done. But if this is the best Weis can do at building up young, inexperienced players, then I don't see there is any hope for the future. There is no reason to believe he will have any better results with the talent coming in next year.

Also be clear that I hope he proves me wrong. I hope we play well, we win games, we win the NC, next year and every year thereafter.
But what evidence do we have that next year will substantially better than this?

 

[kjones]

First, you don't have to be a college or professional coach to see that something here isn't working. You also don't have to be a coach in order to be allowed to voice criticism.

If you're not a lawyer I wouldn't attack your right to express opinions on what the law should be, or whether you disagree with what the law currently is. Attacking someone's credentials rather than attacking the argument is an ad hominem (a logical fallacy).

This goes without saying. I'm not stepping on your right to criticize either. I just want something intelligent and thought out instead of the knee-jerk reactions. It wasn't appearing, so I asked for it. Nobody attacked anyone's credentials to criticize, nor did I attack anyone personally. But I think your point is well taken, and something many people should be aware of. I did call out the people attacking Weis to back up their opinions logically, instead of emotionally. I'm still listening and absorbing, but the kind of comments coming were not helpful to anyone.

Second, explain to me why you think the future holds hope?
...
But what evidence do we have that next year will substantially better than this?

The rest of your post I don't think is addressed to me, because it argues against points I never made. I think its just a post against optimism in general, or at least optimists. I'm not really in either camp right now, I'm just against reactionary, emotionally charged posts that act as if a certain point has been made (e.g. Weis should be fired) without actually MAKING the point. If that's your idea, great, but be ready to support it when I call you out. That's all I was saying.

 

[SoCalDomer]

But Weis has definitely shown that given an offense that is (1) talented and (2) able to carry itself in a professional manner and play 60 minutes of football week-in, week-out, he is going to win some serious games.

Problem: Weis inherited players who were already taught how to run block, pass block, tackle and catch passes that hit them in the hands. All Weis had to do was build them up and teach them more effective offensive schemes. (Much like what NFL coaches do with players coming from college.)

What Weis has not shown he can do is teach high-school players how to run block, pass block, catch passes that hit them in the hands, and tackle: the fundamentals.

There are alot less talented teams who are effective in moving the 1st down markers more than one time in a single drive. If we can't even do that, I don't see any reason for hope that we can move the ball 80 yards enough times to out score our opponents in the future.

 

[kjones]

I forgot to add that otherwise you make some pretty decent points. Though I think your argument against inexperience is pretty weak. Other teams youngungs who start and play well are the cream of the crop. Most of the very talented players recruited out of HS need a few years to get adjusted to the college game before they are reliable options on every down. They may be absolute studs when they get in finally, but MOST do not do this their first or second year. When you have multiple (and i mean multiple) positions where a guy is forced to do this, despite him probably not being ready, then you'll see stuff more like this year.

However, I also don't think these things are the whole story. I think there is a strong mental and psychological component to the offenses performance, because by all right it doesn't make sense.

(Also, I think the OL is coming along, they might be better next year than you might think. But then, I'm a pretty optimistic guy )

 

[NDOM]

We just lost to U$C by the largest margin in the history of the series. Someone could have shown me a chimpanzee in a cowboy hat on a tricycle and I wouldn't have even cracked a grin. All his coaching woes aside, the fact that he laughed (no matter the context) after that game seriously concerns me.

Is there any video of this? I turned the game off in the 3rd quarter.

 

[SoCalDomer]

This goes without saying. I'm not stepping on your right to criticize either. I just want something intelligent and thought out instead of the knee-jerk reactions. It wasn't appearing, so I asked for it. Nobody attacked anyone's credentials to criticize, nor did I attack anyone personally. But I think your point is well taken, and something many people should be aware of. I did call out the people attacking Weis to back up their opinions logically, instead of emotionally. I'm still listening and absorbing, but the kind of comments coming were not helpful to anyone.

The rest of your post I don't think is addressed to me, because it argues against points I never made. I think its just a post against optimism in general, or at least optimists. I'm not really in either camp right now, I'm just against reactionary, emotionally charged posts that act as if a certain point has been made (e.g. Weis should be fired) without actually MAKING the point. If that's your idea, great, but be ready to support it when I call you out. That's all I was saying.

If I misunderstood your first post I apologize. I thought you were shooting down peoples' criticism based on the fact they don;'t have coaching credentials. If not, I apologize.

Re: second part, correct, that wasn't really directed at you.

I am definitely not jumping on the fire weis bandwagon. I've never been in the "just win now" or "what have you done for me lately crowds" that calls for the coach's head after every bad loss. I understand this year was going to be growing pains. But we all agree this is bad. I hope CW can turn it around. But I'm also not gong to foolishly tell our critics "just wait till 2008" or 2009".

I'm glad CW came out and said get your laughing in now. Hopefully he knows something that gives him optimism for the future. I'm glad he's optimistic for the future and it's bringing a little bit of fight out of him. When you lose that fire in the belly, then all is lost. I don't see that he's lost it, but fire in the belly isn;t enough right now.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I forgot to add that otherwise you make some pretty decent points. Though I think your argument against inexperience is pretty weak. Other teams youngungs who start and play well are the cream of the crop. Most of the very talented players recruited out of HS need a few years to get adjusted to the college game before they are reliable options on every down. They may be absolute studs when they get in finally, but MOST do not do this their first or second year. When you have multiple (and i mean multiple) positions where a guy is forced to do this, despite him probably not being ready, then you'll see stuff more like this year.

However, I also don't think these things are the whole story. I think there is a strong mental and psychological component to the offenses performance, because by all right it doesn't make sense.

(Also, I think the OL is coming along, they might be better next year than you might think. But then, I'm a pretty optimistic guy )

I can agree with you there in part. On the inexperience issue, I doubt there is any team who is starting as many inexperienced players as we are. But our young guys aren't the only problems. How is Schwapp still playing when he keeps dropping passes that hit him in the hands. he's not inexperienced. Sullivan and Young on the OL have had individual problems. If they were playing to their experience level, then you would see them finish their blocks and it would be other lineman who are always getting beat.

What i can't agree with is that our young guys aren't the cream of the crop; or at least they should be. They are CW's recruits from 06and 07. CW did get great young guys those two years.

Also, inexperience can explain why we didn't win. But, the young guys now had 7 games to get up to speed, yet we still can't move the first down sticks.

I think much of this (from me and others) comes from how embarrassing these losses are. Even the Mark Mays say wow, I didn't think they would be this bad. We are playing really badly.

 

[Wham]

This goes without saying. I'm not stepping on your right to criticize either. I just want something intelligent and thought out instead of the knee-jerk reactions...

Blah blah blah.

 

[Timugen]

Is there any video of this? I turned the game off in the 3rd quarter.

Yes...it was on NBC's broadcast, in his interview with the on-field reporter as he walked off the field.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Is there any video of this? I turned the game off in the 3rd quarter.

Yeah and she fucking deserved it. If he had not laughed he should be fired.

 

[johnnd05]

Problem: Weis inherited players who were already taught how to run block, pass block, tackle and catch passes that hit them in the hands. All Weis had to do was build them up and teach them more effective offensive schemes. (Much like what NFL coaches do with players coming from college.)

What Weis has not shown he can do is teach high-school players how to run block, pass block, catch passes that hit them in the hands, and tackle: the fundamentals.

There are alot less talented teams who are effective in moving the 1st down markers more than one time in a single drive. If we can't even do that, I don't see any reason for hope that we can move the ball 80 yards enough times to out score our opponents in the future.

Well come on ... we didn't exactly see a lot of quality "fundamentals" on offense in the Willingham years - those things didn't really show up until CW came to town.

But I take your point. Thing is, though, that's something that can be taken care of if you hire good enough assistants/coordinators/etc. I agree with you that Weis has not yet shown the ability to deal well with kiddies (though many of the kiddies - e.g. Parris, Kamara, Allen, Aldridge, Neal, Smith - have looked pretty damn good). I'm just saying that IF he - or someone else - can take care of that and bring them along to the point where BQ et al were two and a half years ago, there's reason to think that Weis can do the rest.

 

[SoCalDomer]

Can I make a suggestion? (Okay smarty pants, i know I "can".)

Why don't we all hold further talk of "fire Weis" and "this is what's wrong" in abeyance until all remaining games of the season are over. If there's no improvement and no wins by the end of the season, then flame away.

I'm not trying to pull the ship down or anyone else's optimism down with frustrations over how terrifically bad we are playing.

I was watching local ABC's post game coverage (mind you I'm in USC territory). The quaterback from Florida state who previously held the record for most lopsided victory (37-0) at ND stadium is a sportscaster. He said he was so impressed by the ND fans cheering for their team (during the game he played) instead of booing by the end of the game, when that's what other schools fans do. (Think Michigan during Oregon loss after losing to App State).

I'm not trying to boo our team by my criticism. So that no one else thinks i am or that my posts don't drag down any one else's support for our team, i am willing to hold any further criticism until the end of the season.

Any takers?

 

[johnnd05]

Sounds good, SCD. I'm in.

Go Irish! Beat Navy!

 

[Timugen]

i am willing to hold any further criticism until the end of the season.

Any takers?

Nope. I'll take the same approach as our beloved CW. One week at a time. We sucked this week. The team performed as if Spongebob was running the show. Right now I'm thinking about the next game and I'm not too confident about it. Losing is one thing, but losing the way we do is unacceptable, no matter what BS excuses you attempt to manufacture.

 

[Wham]

Can I make a suggestion? (Okay smarty pants, i know I "can".)

Why don't we all hold further talk of "fire Weis" and "this is what's wrong" in abeyance until all remaining games of the season are over. If there's no improvement and no wins by the end of the season, then flame away.

I'm not trying to pull the ship down or anyone else's optimism down with frustrations over how terrifically bad we are playing.

I was watching local ABC's post game coverage (mind you I'm in USC territory). The quaterback from Florida state who previously held the record for most lopsided victory (37-0) at ND stadium is a sportscaster. He said he was so impressed by the ND fans cheering for their team (during the game he played) instead of booing by the end of the game, when that's what other schools fans do. (Think Michigan during Oregon loss after losing to App State).

I'm not trying to boo our team by my criticism. So that no one else thinks i am or that my posts don't drag down any one else's support for our team, i am willing to hold any further criticism until the end of the season.

Any takers?

GENIUS ALERT

But, preaching to the choir...

We'll get through this. lol.

Fricken football. Maybe ND should follow the Harvard model.

Naah. ND loves everyone.

 

[kjones]

I can agree with you there in part. On the inexperience issue, I doubt there is any team who is starting as many inexperienced players as we are. But our young guys aren't the only problems.

What i can't agree with is that our young guys aren't the cream of the crop; or at least they should be. They are CW's recruits from 06and 07. CW did get great young guys those two years.

Also, inexperience can explain why we didn't win. But, the young guys now had 7 games to get up to speed, yet we still can't move the first down sticks.

Definitely agree that inexperience isn't the only problem, I really think it's a combination of many factors. But at this point, things have built to the point where the offense has ZERO confidence in anything they do. At that might be one of the biggest problems at this point.

As for the cream of the crop, they are really good guys, but even the cream of the crop, (guys like Matt Leinhart for a contemporary example) are better served by NOT starting right away. The number of guys who can contribute as freshmen is usually only one or two, and sophomores not too much more. I think our guys are good, but most of them would have been better served having a year or two more. That being said, I think they are trying hard, and they are much further along than before, but it really only takes one guy to mess up a play, and only one play to mess up a drive. And with so many, it's more likely something will go wrong.

Blah blah blah.

I just gotta thank Wham for such a good example of a non-intelligent post. It's really too perfect. I don't expect anything else from our resident Sith master .

 

[big daddy]

So do we see any coaching changes this year? Over on DD's general board there was a poster talking about "a rumor " that is floating around South Bend that there are serious problems and that major coaching changes are coming after the season. Has anyone heard of these so called "rumors" or is the poster just talking poop.

 

[SoCalDomer]

Nope. I'll take the same approach as our beloved CW. One week at a time. We sucked this week. The team performed as if Spongebob was running the show. Right now I'm thinking about the next game and I'm not too confident about it. Losing is one thing, but losing the way we do is unacceptable, no matter what BS excuses you attempt to manufacture.

I haven't offered any excuses for what is going on. I've been posting just as much as the reast of you following this game. But after seeing 1000 new threads after this game and a hundred posts by me, I question whether it really does anything more than increase my post total.

We all see we're playing poorly and no amount of posting by us is going to change that. You don't have to withhold your criticism, nor does anyone else.

As for me, I choose to be patient and support my team.

 

[piyachi]

I haven't offered any excuses for what is going on. I've been posting just as much as the reast of you following this game. But after seeing 1000 new threads after this game and a hundred posts by me, I question whether it really does anything more than increase my post total.

We all see we're playing poorly and no amount of posting by us is going to change that. You don't have to withhold your criticism, nor does anyone else.

As for me, I choose to be patient and support my team.

yes, thank you

I'm also a taker for the not-going-to-even-bother-criticizing until this season is over crowd. There is just too much....sensory overload. As for the laugh - have you ever watched any of his pressers before? It's how he is, he doesn't take bs, and if someone says something dumb he reacts sarcastically (same here).