Week 9 National Gameday Thread

[ant80]

Of course.......utterly disregard that the two played in completely different eras, as I pointed out. I conceded that Kern's numbers look small compared to Smith's. But considering the offensive schemes, Kern's numbers are probably even more impressive than Smith's.

No they are not. Schlichter's numbers were impressive. He transformed the three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust offense to a modern day passing offense. Christ Carter (who was a WR from '84-'86) arguably did more in this regard. Kern was just a game manager. Admittedly a very efficient game manager. Look up the statistics from '68-'70 for rushing yardage and passing yardage, and look up comparable numbers from schools that had a more efficient passing attack. Kern was good at what he did. Neither did he transform an offense from the run centric approach to the pass friendly one like Schlichter, nor did he refine the definition of what a modern quarterback at a particular school should do, like Troy Smith. Greene was in the same mould as Kern, but still not as good.

Anyone knowledgeable about OSU football divides the offensive evolution into two periods, one before Schlichter and everything after. Kern was the best QB before Schlichter's period. Schlichter redefined QB for OSU, and Troy surpassed him. I don't know how to explain it better.

edit: in conclusion, let me ask you this, Troy Smith would've shined as a QB during that time period ('68-'70), though admittedly he would have been switched to another position like RB or WR. Do you really believe that Kern would've been able to spray the ball to as many as 9 receivers multiple times as Smith did during the '06 season? Name one OSU QB that had the ability to do that. To progress from one receiver to the next like a robot. Gremaine, Hoying and even Schlichter didn't have that ability.

 

[johnnd05]

You may be right, you may be wrong ... what do I know about OSU football?

Well, I'll tell you one thing I do know: in the last couple of days, three people have found their way to the Irish Roundup via searches for "todd boeckman heisman" (or something of the like). The legend grows ...

 

[buckeyebacker]

this ant guy makes me embarrassed to be associated with Ohio State football...just remember people, not all Ohio State fans ( myself) are not as short sighted as this fool....

 

[kmoose]

Name one OSU QB that had the ability to do that. To progress from one receiver to the next like a robot.

Mike Tomczak

Craig Krenzel (even though he wasn't near as talented as Smith, Krenzel was one of the smartest quarterbacks, on the field, that the Buckeyes have ever had)

 

[ant80]

Mike Tomczak

Craig Krenzel (even though he wasn't near as talented as Smith, Krenzel was one of the smartest quarterbacks, on the field, that the Buckeyes have ever had)

That, I agree with wholeheartedly. Tressell played Krenzel well within his limitations. He wasn't asked to air it out much. He had twice as many interceptions Troy Smith did his senior season in spite of having less attempts. He had two go-to guys, Jenkins and Gamble. Didn't have to go through several receivers each play to find the one that was open.

Mike Tomczak, well, I admit I don't know much about him. But he was playing during the times of Byars and Chris Carter. Carter was the #1, #2 and #3 receiver during those times. I am highly skeptical about your claim that he was completing to multiple receivers. I would like to see receiver yardage numbers during those years.

this ant guy makes me embarrassed to be associated with Ohio State football...just remember people, not all Ohio State fans ( myself) are not as short sighted as this fool....

You just called yourself short-sighted mate... but where are my manners. Thanks for backing a buckeye buckeyebacker.

 

[kmoose]

Mike Tomczak, well, I admit I don't know much about him. But he was playing during the times of Byars and Chris Carter. Carter was the #1, #2 and #3 receiver during those times. I am highly skeptical about your claim that he was completing to multiple receivers. I would like to see receiver yardage numbers during those years.

Huh? I made no such claim. You asked for ONE more quarterback who could progress through reads "like a robot", as you are claiming Smith could do. Just because a quarterback has a favorite receiver, that doesn't mean he is incapable of going through a progression of reads. That's why actually watching teams play is just as important as the box score. Maybe every single one of his completions to a receiver OTHER than his favorite was the result of a progression of reads. The box score won't tell you that. But if you watch the game, you can see the quarterback going through his progression. You need to put down the "Troy Smith is God" kool-aid. The Buckeyes have had better quarterbacks.

 

[ant80]

Huh? I made no such claim. You asked for ONE more quarterback who could progress through reads "like a robot", as you are claiming Smith could do. Just because a quarterback has a favorite receiver, that doesn't mean he is incapable of going through a progression of reads. That's why actually watching teams play is just as important as the box score. Maybe every single one of his completions to a receiver OTHER than his favorite was the result of a progression of reads. The box score won't tell you that. But if you watch the game, you can see the quarterback going through his progression. You need to put down the "Troy Smith is God" kool-aid. The Buckeyes have had better quarterbacks.

During the time Carter was at OSU, the offense was Byars and Carter. That included Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars and Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter. I want you to look at Carter's reception yardage during those years, and compare them to Tomczac's passing numbers. I estimate the difference to be a few hundred yards (almost certainly less than 500). In contrast, Carter caught for over 1000 yards for consecutive seasons. Tomczac didn't need to go through the progression because Carter was usually open. Compare that with Troy Smith where two receivers had over 700 yards, and two more had over 300 yards.

But this argument is more than just going through the progression. He has surpassed everyone before him and set the standard for all future QB's to come. I didn't expect such a vehement denial from you guys. I seriously question whether this argument would've happened if Quinn had won the Heisman last year.

 

[kmoose]

During the time Carter was at OSU, the offense was Byars and Carter. That included Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars, Hand-off to Byars and Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter, Pass to Carter. I want you to look at Carter's reception yardage during those years, and compare them to Tomczac's passing numbers. I estimate the difference to be a few hundred yards (almost certainly less than 500). In contrast, Carter caught for over 1000 yards for consecutive seasons. Tomczac didn't need to go through the progression because Carter was usually open. Compare that with Troy Smith where two receivers had over 700 yards, and two more had over 300 yards.

But this argument is more than just going through the progression. He has surpassed everyone before him and set the standard for all future QB's to come. I didn't expect such a vehement denial from you guys. I seriously question whether this argument would've happened if Quinn had won the Heisman last year.

This "argument" would have happened, either way. I grew up in Stark County, in a house with 7 rabid Buckeye fans and myself. I know Ohio State football. The first college football game I attended was at the Shoe. Troy Smith was a great athlete, but he isn't even close to being the best quarterback that has graced the field for the home team at Ohio Stadium. He may have brought the mobile style of play to Columbus, but he's nowhere near the best. Hell, Herbstreit was a better QB than Smith. He just couldn't move quickly enough to evade even his own shadow. The ONLY thing Troy Smith did better than any other QB in Buckeye history is use his legs to not only get out of trouble, but to actually gain yardage. That doesn't mean he was a bad QB, or even that he wasn't a very good QB. But the best in school history? You need to quit waking and baking, man. If you want to call him your favorite, that's fine. But your credibility is pretty shaky, when you are posting about "the greatest QB in Ohio State history", and admit that you don't know much about Mike Tomczak.

 

[johnnd05]

But this argument is more than just going through the progression. He has surpassed everyone before him and set the standard for all future QB's to come. I didn't expect such a vehement denial from you guys. I seriously question whether this argument would've happened if Quinn had won the Heisman last year.

I think it has less to do with the fact that Quinn DIDN'T win the Heisman than with its having been Smith who DID. If McFadden, say, had come from nowhere and beaten him out, it would have been one thing, but we had to hear all year about how great Smith was and what a disappointment Quinn had been despite the fact that Brady consistently blew his numbers out of the water. So yeah, I do have a grip with Smith.

Like I said, I'm no Buckeye historian, so I can't speak to the question of how Smith stacks up to past OSU quarterbacks. All I'm saying, and I think that Boeckman's success this year bears this out, is that what he did was nothing special - pretty much any competent D-I quarterback could have done the same if they'd had that o-line and RB corps, with Ginn, Holmes, and Gonzales to wing the ball to. No doubt he very often made the most of what he had - both in terms of his own talent and of the talent around him - and perhaps he was a really strong leader as well. But as a quarterback, the guy was nothing special, period.

 

[ant80]

This "argument" would have happened, either way. I grew up in Stark County, in a house with 7 rabid Buckeye fans and myself. I know Ohio State football. The first college football game I attended was at the Shoe. Troy Smith was a great athlete, but he isn't even close to being the best quarterback that has graced the field for the home team at Ohio Stadium. He may have brought the mobile style of play to Columbus, but he's nowhere near the best. Hell, Herbstreit was a better QB than Smith. He just couldn't move quickly enough to evade even his own shadow. The ONLY thing Troy Smith did better than any other QB in Buckeye history is use his legs to not only get out of trouble, but to actually gain yardage. That doesn't mean he was a bad QB, or even that he wasn't a very good QB. But the best in school history? You need to quit waking and baking, man. If you want to call him your favorite, that's fine. But your credibility is pretty shaky, when you are posting about "the greatest QB in Ohio State history", and admit that you don't know much about Mike Tomczak.

First you bring up Kern and Schlichter. Then you bring up Tomczak and Krenzel. Now you bring up Herbstreit? The same Herbstreit who doesn't have a single win against scUM, whose greatest accomplishment was a 13-13 draw against them, and say that he is a better QB than Troy Smith who single-handedly won 3 in a row against tsun? So in your opinion, is Troy Smith a better QB than any of the guys that you mentioned? How about Hoying or Gremaine or Karsatos? Are they all better than Troy Smith as well? Or Greene for that matter?

You might know Buckeye football, but you don't seem to have an opinion, and seem to be simply reacting to my points. Make up your mind who you think is the best QB instead of just coming up with something that seems to be flavor of the minute.

And you of course, ignore my analysis of the reality of the OSU offense during Tomczak's period. In spite of that, you don't counter what I said, and focus on the fact that I openly admitted to not knowing much about Tomczak to "discredit" me. It wouldn't be my credibility that you should be concerned about.

I think it has less to do with the fact that Quinn DIDN'T win the Heisman than with its having been Smith who DID. If McFadden, say, had come from nowhere and beaten him out, it would have been one thing, but we had to hear all year about how great Smith was and what a disappointment Quinn had been despite the fact that Brady consistently blew his numbers out of the water. So yeah, I do have a grip with Smith.

Like I said, I'm no Buckeye historian, so I can't speak to the question of how Smith stacks up to past OSU quarterbacks. All I'm saying, and I think that Boeckman's success this year bears this out, is that what he did was nothing special - pretty much any competent D-I quarterback could have done the same if they'd had that o-line and RB corps, with Ginn, Holmes, and Gonzales to wing the ball to. No doubt he very often made the most of what he had - both in terms of his own talent and of the talent around him - and perhaps he was a really strong leader as well. But as a quarterback, the guy was nothing special, period.

And johnnd05, exactly what is your definition of a QB? You say he marshaled his resources well and that he was a good leader. He completed passes pretty well, and quite accurately. In spite of your refusal to accept, the TD pass against PSU was quite remarkable. He came through when it mattered. Agreed, you may have something against Smith, but assuming for the moment that I let that pass, you have to admit he still accomplished a lot.

 

[kmoose]

So in your opinion, is Troy Smith a better QB than any of the guys that you mentioned?

And you of course, ignore my analysis of the reality of the OSU offense during Tomczak's period. In spite of that, you don't counter what I said, and focus on the fact that I openly admitted to not knowing much about Tomczak to "discredit" me.

1. I would definitely put Schlister and Kern ahead of Smith. Tomczak and Krenzel? You could make an argument that Smith was as good, or even better than them. I only brought them up because you asked for specific examples of previous Ohio State quarterbacks that could perform a specific quarterbacking task (progressing through reads) as well as Smith. As for beating Michigan? Teams beat other teams. There were at least a dozen other QBs around college football that could have led the Buckeyes to the same wins over Michigan that Troy Smith did. So Troy Smith did not single-handedly beat Michigan.

2. The reality of your analysis of the OSU offenes during Tomczak's era is that it is, at best, speculation. You tell me you don't know much about Tomczak, and then offer some kind of "analysis" of the offense during his time? How can you analyze the offense, if you "don't know much" about the QB!?!?!? Are you serious? You gave no statistics to back up your wild claims about the inability of Tomczak to spread the ball around. There was nothing there but uninformed opinion, so don't be surprised if people don't try to counter it.

Much like your namesake, you are getting to be an annoying pest. You act as if I am saying that Smith sucked. I'm certainly not. What I am saying is that I don't think he is even CLOSE to being the best QB in Ohio State's long and storied history. If you can't handle the fact that someone doesn't see your man-crush as the greatest thing since sliced bread, then I'm done with you.

Enjoy your day, ant.

 

[johnnd05]

And johnnd05, exactly what is your definition of a QB? You say he marshaled his resources well and that he was a good leader. He completed passes pretty well, and quite accurately. In spite of your refusal to accept, the TD pass against PSU was quite remarkable. He came through when it mattered. Agreed, you may have something against Smith, but assuming for the moment that I let that pass, you have to admit he still accomplished a lot.

I never denied that he "accomplished a lot" - I just said that countless other QBs could have done the same given what he had around him. That he made the most of what he had doesn't change the fact that he was completely undeserving of the Heisman, nor does it impact my argument that Boeckman is every bit as good as he was.

 

[ant80]

1. I would definitely put Schlister and Kern ahead of Smith. Tomczak and Krenzel? You could make an argument that Smith was as good, or even better than them. I only brought them up because you asked for specific examples of previous Ohio State quarterbacks that could perform a specific quarterbacking task (progressing through reads) as well as Smith. As for beating Michigan? Teams beat other teams. There were at least a dozen other QBs around college football that could have led the Buckeyes to the same wins over Michigan that Troy Smith did. So Troy Smith did not single-handedly beat Michigan.

2. The reality of your analysis of the OSU offenes during Tomczak's era is that it is, at best, speculation. You tell me you don't know much about Tomczak, and then offer some kind of "analysis" of the offense during his time? How can you analyze the offense, if you "don't know much" about the QB!?!?!? Are you serious? You gave no statistics to back up your wild claims about the inability of Tomczak to spread the ball around. There was nothing there but uninformed opinion, so don't be surprised if people don't try to counter it.

Much like your namesake, you are getting to be an annoying pest. You act as if I am saying that Smith sucked. I'm certainly not. What I am saying is that I don't think he is even CLOSE to being the best QB in Ohio State's long and storied history. If you can't handle the fact that someone doesn't see your man-crush as the greatest thing since sliced bread, then I'm done with you.

Enjoy your day, ant.

2004: Smith has a field day against tsun. He puts up more yards against them than any one single player has ever put against them. It is the breakout game for him.
2005: Fourth quarter. OSU behind by two scores.
Facing third and long. Smith rolls right, tries to find an open receiver, can't. Runs left. Makes two guys miss, continues run, makes a third guy miss and gets a first down and runs out of bounds.
Around a minute left, OSU down by 1 or 2 points, TS is unable to find a receiver, starts to run, sees a linebacker about to tackle him, backs out, rolls right, and completes a pass to Gonzo who makes an acrobatic catch to give a first down inside the scUM 5. Pitt scores a TD.
I want you to name one other QB that could've made the plays he did with his legs... other than Vince Young. (Please don't say brady quinn, I'll puke)
2006: Well, Troy Smith passes for 240 yards and 3 TDs in the first half. The rest is history.

Teams beat other teams. But teams are made up of individuals. Without these individuals, things happen very differently. For example, Henne singlehandedly kept scUM in the 2005 game by himself, no doubt about it. If he hadn't been there, it would've been a blowout. Troy Smith is, like it or not, more often than not, that kind of a player. He single-handedly won the game against scUM 3 years in a row.

Statistics, well, my entire point has been that statistics do not completely reveal the effect the presence of Smith has on the field. But if you want to play that argument, great. (while I also note that you don't provide any "statistics" to validate your claims either)

You ask how I can analyze the offense without knowing anything about the QB? Because I know the system. Byars ran for over 1700 yards in 1984, 2nd highest season record in OSU history. I tried, but I can't dig up receiver stats for 1984, the final year of Tomczak, though I know he threw for 1952 yards with a completion % of 0.594, which is his highest for a single season, a joint ninth for the single season with Krenzel's stats for the 2002 season (both their career stats being lower). This is a far well grounded analysis than your wild claim that Herbstreit is "a better QB than Smith". LMAO. Then you contradict yourself by saying he "just couldn't move quickly enough to evade even his own shadow". And you have the gall to make personal attacks on me. Ya, right.

Let's look at other numbers. Troy Smith's career completion % is 0.627. He holds the 2nd and 3rd place for OSU's completion % for season in 2005 and 2006. Boeckman's stats this year is .663, the highest for the season and career (.665). We'll see if he maintains it at the end of this year and next. Schlichter and Kern do not figure in the top 10 for Buckeye completion % career or season. Troy Smith holds 2nd highest completion % for career at .627. The next is Joe Gremaine with .592. Your Herbie stands 9th among all time buckeye QBs for completion % with .564. Nowhere else is he found among the top 10.

Troy is 3rd among all time for TD passes with 54. Only Gremaine (56) and Hoying (57) surpassed him. Four-year starter Schlichter, had 50. Remember Troy started for 2.5 years, and still missed the Alamo bowl game and a couple of other games in between. Troy has 30 TDs in a season, maximum in a single season. Noone else has more. Hoying (29), Gremaine (25). Boeckman has 21 and counting this year.

Troy had 6888 total offense, 3rd among buckeyes, all time. He was within striking distance of Hoying's 7151 yards when the bowl game debacle happened. Schlichter has 8850 yards. Again, pretty good for someone who didn't start until the seventh game of his sophomore season.

The only slight on him is that he is 6th in passing yardage, behind Schlichter, Hoying, Gremaine, Frey and Bellisari. Again, everyone before him was a 3-year starter.

My point is that Troy Smith is more than just his numbers. He was such a good runner that defenses had to account for that every game. Accurate, and very safe. You yourself said "The ONLY thing Troy Smith did better than any other QB in Buckeye history is use his legs to not only get out of trouble, but to actually gain yardage". Don't you think that made defenses think twice about committing to the pass?

Kern is nowhere to be found in the list, completion percentage or pass efficiency. Schlichter doesn't appear often either. Just like Schlichter, Troy has redefined what a quarterback is for the buckeyes. The QBs that you state, Kern and Schlichter, were dinosaurs of a bygone era. Kern defined excellence during their era. Schlichter initiated a new era. Similarly, there is a new era in town. This is the Troy Smith era. He will be used as a measuring stick to assess every quarterback that rolls into Ohio State. Make no mistake about it.