Ty: Pardon me for perservating...

[SteveM]

What got Ty fired was not his race. It was Bob Davie and to some extent Gerry Faust. After two years of Faust, ND knew he wasn’t happening but they stuck to the contract out of a sense of integrity. With Davie, they knew after two years that he wasn’t the guy either but still stuck with him for the same reason. After a couple of years with Ty, they evaluated the direction of the program (downward) and finally gave in to the pressure because they didn’t think the program could stand a Faust/Davie repeat.

Here’s a little though experiment. Say Ty was hired before Davie. So he is fired after a full five and Davie gets the job and is mediocre after two. Would they have fired Davie at the same point in time? Heck yeah. If Faust were there then they would have fired him too. I myself would have given Willingham another year, but then he still would have been fired, only after three instead of two. Do you see my point? Head coaches generate a vibe one way or another. If you’ve reached a conclusion that a guy can’t get it done and you have to jettison him, do it right away. (Life ain’t fair.)

The people at ND aren’t saints (that’s why we have confession). And is there the occasional idiot floating around? Sure? But all in all they do a pretty good job of establishing and upholding standards that other big time programs would never try to match.

 

[Steve]

you need to change your username lol

it's funny too bc my last name begins with an M

imposter.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Fight fight fight!

My money is on Steve! LOL

 

[GoshenGipper]

What got Ty fired was not his race. It was Bob Davie and to some extent Gerry Faust. After two years of Faust, ND knew he wasn’t happening but they stuck to the contract out of a sense of integrity. With Davie, they knew after two years that he wasn’t the guy either but still stuck with him for the same reason. After a couple of years with Ty, they evaluated the direction of the program (downward) and finally gave in to the pressure because they didn’t think the program could stand a Faust/Davie repeat.

Here’s a little though experiment. Say Ty was hired before Davie. So he is fired after a full five and Davie gets the job and is mediocre after two. Would they have fired Davie at the same point in time? Heck yeah. If Faust were there then they would have fired him too. I myself would have given Willingham another year, but then he still would have been fired, only after three instead of two. Do you see my point? Head coaches generate a vibe one way or another. If you’ve reached a conclusion that a guy can’t get it done and you have to jettison him, do it right away. (Life ain’t fair.)

The people at ND aren’t saints (that’s why we have confession). And is there the occasional idiot floating around? Sure? But all in all they do a pretty good job of establishing and upholding standards that other big time programs would never try to match.

Great post, and I agree with it. ND was tired of mediocrity, they had already had enough with the end of Lou, and Davie. They couldn't stand around and do nothing while it continued to happen. Plus Ty was a horrible recruiter, something that was never going to change and from what I've heard he didn't reach out to former players and they were often not welcome around the proram. Those two things combined with his mediocrity is what got him fired.

As far as the fight is concerned, the next thing you know KamaraPolice will be asking for a sports book event on it.

 

[NDFan4Life]

I'd be interested to see a list of Ty's recruits in '02, '03, & '04. How many actually completed their education at ND and how many transferred, etc. I'm not exactly sure what it would accomplish, but perhaps it will put to rest the debate on his recruiting or lack thereof.

 

[johnnd05]

I'd be interested to see a list of Ty's recruits in '02, '03, & '04. How many actually completed their education at ND and how many transferred, etc. I'm not exactly sure what it would accomplish, but perhaps it will put to rest the debate on his recruiting or lack thereof.

14 of Ty's recruits transferred or otherwise left the team. With the exception of Darius Walker, none of that group ever made anything of themselves as football players.

 

[GoshenGipper]

I'd be interested to see a list of Ty's recruits in '02, '03, & '04. How many actually completed their education at ND and how many transferred, etc. I'm not exactly sure what it would accomplish, but perhaps it will put to rest the debate on his recruiting or lack thereof.

Go ahead take a look here http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/commitlist.asp?SID=880&Year=2008&School=55

Just swtich the team to Notre Dame and you can pick the year from '02 - '09, to me and anyone that is honest about it there really is no debate. On a side note the '02 was mostly Davie's class. Ty's classes were the '03, '04, and '05 classes. CW only had about a month to try to work on the '05 class.

Here's the team rankings. They go back to '02 as well.

http://rivals100.rivals.com/teamrank.asp?SID=880

 

[NDFan4Life]

Thanks guys. That's some interesting stuff.

Under Ty, we went from 12th in 2003 with (2) 5-star and (6) 4-star, to 32nd in 2004 with no 5-star and (3) 4-star, to 40th with no 5-star and (2) 4-star.

But under CW, we were 8th in 2006 with (2) 5-star and (10) 4-star, and stayed 8th in 2007 with (1) 5-star and (12) 4-star, and in 2008 we're looking at number 2 with (2) 5-star and (13) 4-star.

As far as I can tell, there's no comparison. It's obvious that Ty didn't recruit as hard as he should have. And if I can figure that out, anyone could.

Thanks again for your assistance.

 

[GoshenGipper]

Thanks guys. That's some interesting stuff.

Under Ty, we went from 12th in 2003 with (2) 5-star and (6) 4-star, to 32nd in 2004 with no 5-star and (3) 4-star, to 40th with no 5-star and (2) 4-star.

But under CW, we were 8th in 2006 with (2) 5-star and (10) 4-star, and stayed 8th in 2007 with (1) 5-star and (12) 4-star, and in 2008 we're looking at number 2 with (2) 5-star and (13) 4-star.

As far as I can tell, there's no comparison. It's obvious that Ty didn't recruit as hard as he should have. And if I can figure that out, anyone could.

Thanks again for your assistance.

There's a good chance ND will move back upto #1 for this year after Floyd's commitment as well.

 

[NDFan4Life]

There's a good chance ND will move back upto #1 for this year after Floyd's commitment as well.

That would be an even better reason to keep CW.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

14 of Ty's recruits transferred or otherwise left the team. With the exception of Darius Walker, none of that group ever made anything of themselves as football players.

Even then, Darius was not all he could be. He was a great receiver and blocker, too bad he was not a good runner.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

There's a good chance ND will move back upto #1 for this year after Floyd's commitment as well.

It's not a chance, it's a done deal. I am not sure we will hold the spot through the end of the recruiting period, but we undoubtedly have a Top5 team.

 

[onenybrother]

The only things that matter is Charlie recruits. Who give a fawk about what Ty recruit's did. That's our fawking problem Ty Ty Ty. When it should be Charlie Charlie Charlie.

Hate for my 750th post to be so angry.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

LOL

Just as long as it's not the 1,000th post.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I don't take pleasure in others' failures, so it's not will ill intent that I bring Washington's record up. But I find it interesting that Washington having lost it's last five games (albeit against tough opponents), the comments about Weis being 0-and-whatever to Ty's whatever-and-0 have stopped. We're now 1-7, and Washington is 2-5.

 

[WaveDomer]

I've also heard that Willingham didn't want to be in South Bend anymore. I'm almost positive I read that at the time.

 

[GoshenGipper]

Here's a nice visual reference to look at in reguard to recruiting comparison. Jonas Gray isn't on it but you get the idea.

 

[Newc]

Wow...look how many stars there are on the left side.

 

[goldandblue]

Can someone tell my why we hired TY in the first place? I never have understood. Did he do something spectacular at Stanford that I missed? What made the U.of N.D. think that he was the guy to bring this program back to dominance?

 

[Sureal]

He's 2-5 over there in Washington.

Please no more 3 year comparisons...

 

[irish4ever]

That would be an even better reason to keep CW.

CW is not going anywhere. He along w/ all true Irish FAITHFUL knows that he and his staff are building something really special. It's going to really be exciting times again for Irish football beginning next year ... lighter schedule and the young studs have a year of grooming! I would be willing to take 1 year of beatings (like this year) if it takes them to where we all think that they are going ... to the upper echelon of college football year after year!

Years like this we have to keep one thing in mind .... "this too shall pass!"

 

[GoshenGipper]

Can someone tell my why we hired TY in the first place? I never have understood. Did he do something spectacular at Stanford that I missed? What made the U.of N.D. think that he was the guy to bring this program back to dominance?

He actually had decent sucess at Stanford, at least for their standards. It's even harder to recruit there than ND, and if I remember correctly he took Stanford to the Rose Bowl one year too.

But they ran into the same problems that ND is hitting. Look at what happened to Walt Harris. He left a decent Pitt team to go back to the west coast but Ty had left that program void of talent and it ended up getting Harris fired.

 

[Sureal]

He actually had decent sucess at Stanford, where it's even harder to recruit than ND, and if I remember correctly he took Stanford to the Rose Bowl one year too.

Yep. Wasn't that a down year in the Pac-10 though? It was late 90's or something. They were like 8-4 or something like that.

 

[SoCalDomer]

He actually had decent sucess at Stanford, where it's even harder to recruit than ND, and if I remember correctly he took Stanford to the Rose Bowl one year too.

Two unrelated points:
1) I would agree he had "relatively" good success. He had a .543 winning percentage, and his overall record was 44-36-1 at Stanford. That doesn't seem so bad except only 4 out of 8 seasons were winning seasons. He did take them to four bowls (one being the Rose bowl, the other being lesser bowls). He was 1-4 in Bowl games, with the sole win being over Mich State 38-0. But it's not like he progressed up to winning seasons. His only two back-to-back winning seasons came his first two years. He then followed with two losing seasons, one winning season, losing season, then winning season. The fact he could have bad losing seasons right after good seasons I think shows he will be a roughly .500 career coach.

This was true at ND, and now Washington. It looked like he was building momentum at Washington starting with a 2-9 season, followed by 5-7, followed by 2-5 this season. Remaining on this year's sched are Arizona, Stanford, Or State, Cal, Wash St and Hawaii. Only Cal and Hawaii are ranked. He can only lose one game to end with a winning record. I don't think that's happening.

I don't mind that they took a chance on who they thought was an up-and-comer. Unfortunately, it turns out he is a platauer.
-----------------------------------
2) Not everyone wins right out of the gate. Some coaches have losing efforts until they have an opportunity to grow and develop their team. If the intangibles are there, other factors than the coach's ability could explain a relative lack of success.

I don't mind that they take a risk on a guy who they think will be a good candidate. Wasn't everyone (outside of ND) criticizing CW's choice of Corwin brown for his lack of defensive coordinator experience? Unfortunately sometimes the only way to tell is by hiring and seeing them sink or swim.

On the other hand, you could bring someone who had great past success but it doesn't guarantee they will repeat. How many NFL coaches have had great success, retired, come back to coach only to flop and retire again?

 

[Wham]

Two unrelated points:
1) I would agree he had "relatively" good success. He had a .543 winning percentage, and his overall record was 44-36-1 at Stanford. That doesn't seem so bad except only 4 out of 8 seasons were winning seasons. He did take them to four bowls (one being the Rose bowl, the other being lesser bowls). He was 1-4 in Bowl games, with the sole win being over Mich State 38-0. But it's not like he progressed up to winning seasons. His only two back-to-back winning seasons came his first two years. He then followed with two losing seasons, one winning season, losing season, then winning season. The fact he could have bad losing seasons right after good seasons I think shows he will be a roughly .500 career coach.

I don't mind that they took a chance on who they thought was an up-and-comer. Unfortunately, it turns out he is a platauer.
-----------------------------------
2) Not everyone wins right out of the gate. Some coaches have losing efforts until they have an opportunity to grow and develop their team. If the intangibles are there, other factors than the coach's ability could explain a relative lack of success.

I don't mind that they take a risk on a guy who they think will be a good candidate. Wasn't everyone (outside of ND) criticizing CW's choice of Corwin brown for his lack of defensive coordinator experience? Unfortunately sometimes the only way to tell is by hiring and seeing them sink or swim.

On the other hand, you could bring someone who had great past success but it doesn't guarantee they will repeat. How many NFL coaches have had great success, retired, come back to coach only to flop and retire again?

Ty was not an up and comer. He was already a proven platauer when he was hired. His stats were there for everyone to see. I was pissed when they hired him. I think ND was "forced" into hiring an African American. It was good for decorum. Trust me, I like what some call "color", but I think they could have made a better choice. I don't know who (because I'm not that obsessive a football fan), but someone, anyone, other than a proven mediocre coach.

I'm outside of ND. I liked the choice of Brown as DC. I especially liked the Minter goodbye party. I'm not sold on Brown yet. They don't force enough 3-outs like other defenses do, but I REALLY liked the hand celebration he shared with Crum. My simpleton prognosis is that he will do well.

"On the other hand, you could bring someone who had great past success but it doesn't guarantee they will repeat" - SoCal

As far as NFL coaches re-flopping, do you have any examples? Spurrier, Holtz, Devine - they did well after the NFL. ND seems to not learn from its mistakes. They keep hiring beginners at the helm and keep getting mediocre results. When they have hired experienced college coaches, the results have been kinda nice (Leahy, Parseghian, Devine, Holtz).

 

[KamaraPolice]

Football is Football. Look at those first two classes from ty. Those classes are now 5th year seniors and seniors across the country. Look at the names and try to figure out how many of those guys are key contributors. Thats the problem.

 

[SoCalDomer]

Ty was not an up and comer.

I never said he was. I said "who they thought" was an up and comer.

As far as NFL coaches re-flopping, do you have any examples? Spurrier, Holtz, Devine - they did well after the NFL. ND seems to not learn from its mistakes. They keep hiring beginners at the helm and keep getting mediocre results. When they have hired experienced college coaches, the results have been kinda nice (Leahy, Parseghian, Devine, Holtz).

I didn't mean people who went to the NFL from college, flopped and came back to college and did well. I was focusing exclusively on NFL coaches who had good careers, retired, came back and did the el-stinko.

Examples, Jimmy Johnson. He did pretty well grin: with the Cowboys, retired, tried coming back with the Dolphins and went ker-flop.
Joe Gibbs. Had good years with Washington, retired, came back and firs year terrible, second year went to the playoffs, next year el stinko, this year remains to be seen.
Art Shell, did pretty well with the Raiders, got fired, coached elsewhere, served in NFL administration, came back to coach the Raiders and did the el-stinko.

 

[KamaraPolice]

Good Point.

You can add Bill Parcells to that as well and Buddy Ryan.

 

[Wham]

Football is Football. Look at those first two classes from ty. Those classes are now 5th year seniors and seniors across the country. Look at the names and try to figure out how many of those guys are key contributors. Thats the problem.

To CW's credit, he is giving them a chance to live out their football dream.

Don't think he had any other choice. Ty left the cupboard bare.

Hell, who knows...

GO NOTRE DAME! KEEP FIGHTING FOR THE GOOD GUYS!

 

[KamaraPolice]

To CW's credit, he is giving them a chance to live out their football dream.

Don't think he had any other choice. Ty left the cupboard bare.

Hell, who knows...

GO NOTRE DAME! KEEP FIGHTING FOR THE GOOD GUYS!

Yeah he is, but what i meant is that you want upperclassman to be the majority of the contributors. the sr/5th sr are lacking.