The Way You Win

[IrishAlum1997]

I was listening to Colin Cowherd today, talking about the drama going on in the IU basketball program. His contention was that if IU was coming off a national championship year and was 25-0 right now there would be a lot more support for Coach Sampson and his plight. His contention was that if a program is winning, championships, big games, etc., that is all the fans care about. It's not how you do it, but that you do it.

It really caused me to pause and reflect on if that would really apply to the Notre Dame family and fanbase. I certainly don't want to sound too self-righteous regarding our program, but it seems as if we have always done things the right way, and had no tolerance for inappropriate behavior. We've had our history of poor behavior, but the teams or University typically takes quick action in administering discipline. The fans and students have always seemed to be supportive of those decisions.

I would like to think that if Notre Dame were back to its consistent BCS, title-talking status in the college football world, and say, we discover that Jimmy Clausen accepted a Porsche Boxster from Maura Weis as a high school graduation gift, we would be proactively supportive in seeing Coach Weis ousted for not running the program 'the right way.' (A COMPLETELY FICTITIOUS EXAMPLE TO MAKE A POINT.) I do think Notre Dame fans are fairly unique in the keeping of a 'moral compass.'

Would we feel that way?

 

[Win4Gipper]

I would hope so... I think Notre Dame will always be so much more important than single player or coach...

Also, on a side note.. I love Collin Cowherd.. he shoots straight and he is right most of the time.. he says it in a way that gets as many people riled up as possible but when it comes down to the basis of his topics I can see where he was coming from...

Great Post IrishAlum1997

 

[IrishAlum1997]

I would hope so... I think Notre Dame will always be so much more important than single player or coach...

Also, on a side note.. I love Collin Cowherd.. he shoots straight and he is right most of the time.. he says it in a way that gets as many people riled up as possible but when it comes down to the basis of his topics I can see where he was coming from...

Great Post IrishAlum1997

Thanks.

I agree with you on Cowherd. I enjoy his show. He even mentioned ND football in his program today as having overhyped recruiting classes because 'it's Notre Dame.' He also went on to say that we are still a premier program, as we have been to BCS games 2 out of the last 3 years, which is the equivalent of the Elite 8 for college football. Don't know how I feel about the 'overhyped recruiting' statement. I would tend to support the 'overhyped coaching' sentiment until Charlie and crew get this ship righted with some quality wins.

 

[Mattmags]

i listened to the show today as well. Colin's use of comparing Duke basketball and Notre Dame football was unfortunately, for the most part, correct. He was not bashing Notre Dame...in actuality he backs Notre Dame on a lot of issues. He was just staing the facts about being a top notch program academically, great history and tradition, consistent top recruiting classes, tv contract BUT cannot win a bowl game.

Although not specifically mentioning Notre Dame in another conversation, he spoke a lot about how schools simply want a winning team by just getting by with mediocre academic standards. I felt he was spot on with this comment. We see many schools with successful football or basketball teams year in and year out, BUT the graduation rate is often horrendous when compared to top notch academic universities. He specifically pointed out School leaders and presidents. Having schools with a successful sports trend of winning promotes a school in a great way nationally. If, let's say LSU, has a graduation rate of 38% the college gets concerned. However, if the other SEC schools have a similar rate, it's considered o.k. because at least they aren't the worst. It's too bad things are this way. I can honestly say that this is what makes me proud to be a fan of Notre Dame athletics. Quality athletes, quality students, and most importantly quality people.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

I am an IU basketball fan... i wouldn't mind to see Sampson out the door. I dont care if he wins championships, i would rather root for a clean program than a dirty one who doesnt win championships.

 

[IrishinTN]

Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and one thing that goes hand in hand with Notre Dame football is the expectation that the program be run "the right way". If there was any hanky panky- PROVEN hanky panky, I will add, not just allegations- then Charlie would be ripped to shreds across the board, and fired without question.

 

[SouthernIrish]

I disagree with the idea that Indiana would not be as upset if they were coming off an NC when this hits. They have a team that should go very deep into the tournament and could still win the Big Ten right now, its not like they are a bad team. Indiana and Penn State, up until now, had zero ncaa violations in ANY sport in the last 40 years. Not even Notre Dame can say that. For Indiana fans, that has ALWAYS been a tremendous source of pride. To see that dirtied is absolutely humiliating. The AD that hired Sampson will be gone also. He brought in shame to a program that prides itself on honesty. For Indiana fans, a big part of the pride in those banners hanging in Assembly Hall is that they were won completely cleanly, a fact that many other programs cannot boast about.

 

[MDewFiend]

Mike Davis led IU deep into the bracket and he still got fired for non rule breaking reasons, dont see why sampson will not be fired for doing the same damn thing he did to get into trouble at OU. The AD should be tossed too. He knew he was putting his neck out for the man when he hired him and sampson did him the favor of not learning his lesson.


jn

 

[IHateMarkMay]

Mike Davis led IU deep into the bracket and he still got fired for non rule breaking reasons, dont see why sampson will not be fired for doing the same damn thing he did to get into trouble at OU. The AD should be tossed too. He knew he was putting his neck out for the man when he hired him and sampson did him the favor of not learning his lesson.


jn

He did it with Bob Knight players, Coverdale, Lewis, Fife, the big guys, all Knights. I forgot how long he had been there, but those were Knight players.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

I disagree with the idea that Indiana would not be as upset if they were coming off an NC when this hits. They have a team that should go very deep into the tournament and could still win the Big Ten right now, its not like they are a bad team. Indiana and Penn State, up until now, had zero ncaa violations in ANY sport in the last 40 years. Not even Notre Dame can say that. For Indiana fans, that has ALWAYS been a tremendous source of pride. To see that dirtied is absolutely humiliating. The AD that hired Sampson will be gone also. He brought in shame to a program that prides itself on honesty. For Indiana fans, a big part of the pride in those banners hanging in Assembly Hall is that they were won completely cleanly, a fact that many other programs cannot boast about.

Is seeing a program dirtied more humiliating than winning championships with a coach that throws chairs across the court to make a spectacle? IU fans seemed to be cheering rather than booing in all of the clips I have seen showing Robert Montgomery's erratic behavior. But they were WINNING, so it was eccentric, not erratic.

Just sayin'.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

Is seeing a program dirtied more humiliating than winning championships with a coach that throws chairs across the court to make a spectacle? IU fans seemed to be cheering rather than booing in all of the clips I have seen showing Robert Montgomery's erratic behavior. But they were WINNING, so it was eccentric, not erratic.

Just sayin'.

Bob Knight is the best (ok maybe second to john wooden) coach in NCAA Basketball history, he did what he had to do to get his team to play up to their potential and to get the fans cheering how they should be. And plus, didnt you hear that he saw an old lady on the other side of the court who was standing... She looked like she needed a chair, so he was enough of a gentleman to throw one to her. haha

 

[SouthernIrish]

Its because most of the Big Ten and the entire fanbase of Indiana would have thrown a chair at Ted Valentine, given the chance.

but seriously, yes, its MUCH more embarrassing to have your program and coach dirtied by cheating to me. If I had to pick between my boys being coached by Kelvin Sampson and Bobby Knight, hands down I would pick Knight. I base what I think of the man on a whole lot more than clips on ESPN or biased articles written by the very media he hates. To me, the fact that Kent Benson gave up his home tickets after they fired Knight speaks volumes. What he did and still does for Landon Turner matters more to me than a thrown chair. The fact that almost every player he coached graduated and admires him to this day matters more. And his winning with a spotless record with the ncaa matters to me more too. So his erratic or eccentric, however you view it, are not nearly as embarrassing as someone who cheats and then lies about it.

I am just glad to see that most of Indiana's fans are calling for his head AND are embarrassed. If this were Florida the fans would be saying that its a witch hunt or lies spread by some rival school.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

I agree that cheating is worse than being a jerk.

I am sure Bob Knight has done plenty of good things with his fame and position, I just think the persona he chooses to embrace with the public and the media is nothing to commend or glorify. I'm all for attitude, hell, Charlie has got plenty of piss and vinegar in him, but at least he has a certain level of restraint in responding to the 'tough' questions from the media.

Knight's antics were justified by the fans when the program was winning, and were not when they were not. I'm all for tough love and discipline, I think it is a trait lost on too many parents and role models today.

I just think Coach Knight took it too far, and did not know how to adapt his style with the change in society's expectations of political correctness. Great leaders adapt, and he did not prove his ability to, at least towards the end of his tenure at IU. Kent Benson cancelled his season ticket. When did he play? '75? Different times, different expectations.

It's about the way you win.

 

[SouthernIrish]

I guess it all depends on how you look at things. adapting to changes in society or staying true to yourself? which makes you a better leader? That was no persona, that was the real deal. The thing is, the media was on him with a magnifying glass. Tom Izzo was throwing fits last night but the camera wasn't trained on him every 30 seonds the way it was with Knight. Majeuris (sp) has done some pretty rough things to but where is the ESPN uproar?

He went down to TT and started getting 20 win seasons, a sweet sixteen appearance and some big wins with players that were far from blue chips in a program that most of the students didn't even know existed. The players Mike Davis took to the final four in 2002 were recruited by Knight. so i don't think he had totally lost his edge either

He was a crusty, grouchy man who was getting older. I will never believe that the firing was due to nothing more than Brand wanting to make a name for himself in the ncaa. He did enough good in his life that went beyond basketball that yes, i did overlook his bad side.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

I guess it all depends on how you look at things. adapting to changes in society or staying true to yourself? which makes you a better leader? That was no persona, that was the real deal. The thing is, the media was on him with a magnifying glass. Tom Izzo was throwing fits last night but the camera wasn't trained on him every 30 seonds the way it was with Knight. Majeuris (sp) has done some pretty rough things to but where is the ESPN uproar?

He went down to TT and started getting 20 win seasons, a sweet sixteen appearance and some big wins with players that were far from blue chips in a program that most of the students didn't even know existed. The players Mike Davis took to the final four in 2002 were recruited by Knight. so i don't think he had totally lost his edge either

He was a crusty, grouchy man who was getting older. I will never believe that the firing was due to nothing more than Brand wanting to make a name for himself in the ncaa. He did enough good in his life that went beyond basketball that yes, i did overlook his bad side.

I agree with staying true to yourself. All the same, if Coach Weis stayed true to himself, he would be calling the plays again this season, spreading himself too thin, and putting himself in a position to get canned. Hopefully, he has altered the direction of this program by adapting, empowering his AC's and working on improving his relationships with his players.

Agree to disagree here, SI (are we disagreeing?). Nothing but respect for the IU hoops program. Just not a Knight fan.

 

[ALLND62]

I agree with staying true to yourself. All the same, if Coach Weis stayed true to himself, he would be calling the plays again this season, spreading himself too thin, and putting himself in a position to get canned. Hopefully, he has altered the direction of this program by adapting, empowering his AC's and working on improving his relationships with his players.

Agree to disagree here, SI (are we disagreeing?). Nothing but respect for the IU hoops program. Just not a Knight fan.

IrishAlum1997 this maybe a bad comparison but if Notre Dame football were to adapt to what the other so called elite football programs do we would not be ND we would just be another University. I do not like Indiana Basketball because of the way Bobby Knight acted when I was younger (and I loved Notre Dame BB) but as I have aged and have coached younger kids in baseball, basketball, and football there needs to be more Bobby Knights coaching......they learn more than the sport they learn about life and what it means to be a team. This is my opinion only.

 

[dylan020]

but as I have aged and have coached younger kids in baseball, basketball, and football there needs to be more Bobby Knights coaching......they learn more than the sport they learn about life and what it means to be a team. This is my opinion only.

this is the exact reason my dad wouldnt let me watch anything but ND football and IU basketball growing up. He thought Lou and Knight were coaches to look up to and he always tried to somewhat take that mentality to our little league practices to teach us more than the sport...

And just for $hits and giggles off topic, those kids that bitched cause Knight "hit" them....wimps, get up, shut up, and play some damn ball!

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Bob Knight is the best (ok maybe second to john wooden) coach in NCAA Basketball history, he did what he had to do to get his team to play up to their potential and to get the fans cheering how they should be.

Speaking of cheating, Wooden looked the other way while prominent UCLA alums bought most of the players who filled out his NC teams during his remarkable run. I like Wooden & think he was/is a great molder of men both on & off the court. He presented his teams & himself w/ class....but those players weren't signed based on all those attributes...they gots PAYD!

 

[mbooch]

I agree that cheating is worse than being a jerk.

I am sure Bob Knight has done plenty of good things with his fame and position, I just think the persona he chooses to embrace with the public and the media is nothing to commend or glorify. I'm all for attitude, hell, Charlie has got plenty of piss and vinegar in him, but at least he has a certain level of restraint in responding to the 'tough' questions from the media.

Knight's antics were justified by the fans when the program was winning, and were not when they were not. I'm all for tough love and discipline, I think it is a trait lost on too many parents and role models today.

I just think Coach Knight took it too far, and did not know how to adapt his style with the change in society's expectations of political correctness. Great leaders adapt, and he did not prove his ability to, at least towards the end of his tenure at IU. Kent Benson cancelled his season ticket. When did he play? '75? Different times, different expectations.

It's about the way you win.

I'm a Knight guy. The Chair was 30 years ago. It's old news. But here's an insight you all might want to consider. Undoubtedly, during his tenure at Indiana, Knight learned of all sorts of NCAA violative tyoes of things his fellow Big Ten coaches were doing, but not getting caught at. He never breathed a word of it in public, but he DID sit through innumerable press conferences with the learned members of the media, more than one of whom was bound to have known some of the same things Knight knew about the cheating of other coaches. Yet, who was always the target of these media guys' tongue-clicking? The General. I humbly submit that, if any of us went through 20 plus years of that sort of hypcorisy, we'd be inviting the good gents of the Fifth Estate to kiss our nether ends, too. At least, I HOPE WE WOULD! If smiling while rampant hypocrisy rules the day is an "adaptiation" we truly espect of "leaders" today, I say thank God Bob Knight wasn't one!

 

[IrishAlum1997]

IrishAlum1997 this maybe a bad comparison but if Notre Dame football were to adapt to what the other so called elite football programs do we would not be ND we would just be another University. I do not like Indiana Basketball because of the way Bobby Knight acted when I was younger (and I loved Notre Dame BB) but as I have aged and have coached younger kids in baseball, basketball, and football there needs to be more Bobby Knights coaching......they learn more than the sport they learn about life and what it means to be a team. This is my opinion only.

Not sure if my point is clear here...my contention is that instead of being an arrogant jerk that verbally beats his players into submission, Charlie is learning to be more personable and understand the personal needs of his players. He is doing the same with his coaching staff by empowering Coach Haywood and others to be more accountable in the playcalling for the team. I don't think he's going to turn into a 'player's coach,' and we won't truly know the results of his change in coaching philosophy until the season begins.

I certainly do not doubt Knight emphasized the team concept and helped many of his players prepare for handling adversity and challenges in their lives. I just don't agree with a 'my way or the highway' approach. I am not saying that a coach has to do what the players want, but a coach has to be able to evaluate the mental psyche of his team and adapt his style to get his message across.

Gonna keep agreeing to disagree on Coach Knight here, folks. Don't like the guy.

 

[SouthernIrish]

I think that what the public sees in Knight HAS to be different than what he shows his players. There is no way an "arrogant jerk", which he has down pat, can be the only side to Bob Knight. I have read interview after interview of his old players and a couple from player's parents and they all state their support of him. That kind of loyalty doesn't just happen.

I do think he must have a harder time coaching but that is because the players have changed. Look at the insanity of recruiting. Those top players are turned into rock stars, that definitely would not fly with a Bob Knight team. As a teacher, I can tell you that parents nowadays are VERY different. It used to be considered a good thing to have a hard ass as a coach or teacher. It meant your kid was being kept to the straight and narrow. Now its considered abuse. So, he chose not to change but stay true to himself. I am not so sure that the problem is with him as it is with the attitudes of the athletes.

I believe there are still players and parents that want that style of coach. My own son's favorite soccer coach was a keeper coach from Chile. There are no Momma's boys in Chile. He was an absolute beast. Many parents complained but the funny thing was the players for the most part thought he was a great coach. Very hard but very fair. And they also knew he would make them best players they could possibly be.

 

[laservet]

My Bobby Knight moment -- he threw a soda at me, hit me right in the chest. We were sitting behind the bench and the guy behind me was giving him a bunch of scat. Knight finally had enough, spun around, and nailed me instead. I saved the shirt.

 

[SouthernIrish]

My mother has a letter from him framed. She moved my senior picture to hang it up

 

[IHateMarkMay]

I remember watching the win that got him the most wins by a mens coach. He had a tear in his eye... it was crazy, i loved it.